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What do you believe without evidence? If anything.

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    #92
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Jernal wrote: »

    I think it's extremely unlikely that we'll find intelligent life (more likely that intelligent life will find us!). But I think we'll find life in the solar system. I'd actually be willing to make a substantial bet on that. Enceladus ftw!:)


    We may well find fossilized life under the regolith of Mars when we get people to the planet. Even if it was just ancient bacteria. Mars had perfect conditions for that for millions of years. Ill also throw a tenner on Titan.


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    #93
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    jank wrote: »
    The universe is rather large so what are the odds that there is life out there other than ourselves?

    If I had to guess I would say 1, given the size of the universe and the quantity of material we know comes together to create life.
    jank wrote: »
    The universe is so complex and vast how could be just be without a maker behind it?

    I'm always amazed theists actually take such an argument seriously given the blindingly obvious issue with that.

    I don't know what the odds are the universe could just be are. I do know though that those odds are greater than the odds that God could just be, give that what ever way you look at it God is defined as greater that the universe.

    What ever the odds are that the universe just exists it must be more unlikely that God just exists. In fact since God is defined as the greatest thing ever then it is more unlikely God exists than anything else.

    God is, by definition, the least likely thing imaginable to just exist.

    So how is the argument that the universe is too something (complex, organised, ordered, perfect) to just exist an argument for God?
    jank wrote: »
    Both require a leap of faith, yet atheists have no problem in making this leap when it comes to UFO's yet are adamant that a belief in god is stupid.

    Belief in God is stupid. The arguments for belief in God are stupid. You just gave an argument and it was easy to point out why it is stupid.


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    #94
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    jank wrote: »
    Well reason and the 'reasonable' you state is subjective.

    The universe is rather large so what are the odds that there is life out there other than ourselves?

    The universe is so complex and vast how could be just be without a maker behind it?

    Both require a leap of faith, yet atheists have no problem in making this leap when it comes to UFO's yet are adamant that a belief in god is stupid.

    And who made the maker? if something could come into being from nothing you've just proved your own argument there. a maker can come from nothing but a universe can't? an what about UFO's, hey if there's other life on planets then we put UFO's of our own into space all the time, they just can't travel the universe yet.


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    #95
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Jernal wrote: »
    (more likely that intelligent life will find us!)

    I always find it interesting to consider what scale of intelligence a civilisation can get to. An alien race could easily be so intelligent that their children's doodles are the equivalent of our most advanced physics and get condescendingly put on the space-fridge. Aliens might be no more likely to come say hello to the humans than you are to pull off of a motorway and try to start a conversation with a termite mound.

    To bring it a bit closer, imagine trying to explain bbcode to a human being from ten thousand years ago. You'd have to teach them the following things: Mathematics -> Electricity -> Computers -> The Internet -> Discussion Forums -> bbcode. It's such a fundamental elevation of grasp of reality and explanation of new and ambiguous concepts that it would basically be futile, and this is a member of your own species who is not significantly less evolved than you and separated by a mere sliver of time.


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    #96
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    I believe that humanity has seen it's worst days and will move in a straight line towards improvements both ethically and intelligently. I believe we (though I'll be long reduced to a mention on someone's family tree) will colonise other planets. There's little evidence for that and while we are better off than we were 1000 years ago history has shown we're capable, for periods of time at least, of slipping backwards but I just don't see it happening again.


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    #97
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    I believe that humanity has seen it's worst days and will move in a straight line towards improvements both ethically and intelligently. I believe we (though I'll be long reduced to a mention on someone's family tree) will colonise other planets. There's little evidence for that and while we are better off than we were 1000 years ago history has shown we're capable, for periods of time at least, of slipping backwards but I just don't see it happening again.

    I think the human race is getting dumber by the minute, have you turned on a tv lately?


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    #98
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    krudler wrote: »
    I think the human race is getting dumber by the minute, have you turned on a tv lately?

    Have you read a history book lately?

    Jersey Shore seems less awful when one contemplates state sanctioned witch burnings and regular human sacrifice.


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    #99
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    krudler wrote: »
    I think the human race is getting dumber by the minute, have you turned on a tv lately?

    Not in the traditional sense no. I don't have any tv channels as such! Though I get your point. But I don't think it's any worse than it ever was. TV is full of crap and just because reality tv is more profitable than pointless game shows (even if I prefer the later) doesn't mean people are more stupid. Actually I think the almost free access to a wealth of information on the internet when we're not watching porn will allow us to get smarter and I believe most people enjoy learning when it's not forced on them.


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    #100
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Zillah wrote: »
    Have you read a history book lately?

    Jersey Shore seems less awful when one contemplates state sanctioned witch burnings and regular human sacrifice.

    but that stuff still happens, honour killing, albinos being mutilated for "magic powers" in Africa, state sanctioned lashes, beheadings for infidels, or for women who look at men funny in the Middle East etc etc. Not on the same scale as say the dark ages but its still rampant. Ignorance and utter stupidity is still around on a large scale.


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    #101
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    krudler wrote: »
    but that stuff still happens, honour killing, albinos being mutilated for "magic powers" in Africa, state sanctioned lashes, beheadings for infidels, or for women who look at men funny in the Middle East etc etc. Not on the same scale as say the dark ages but its still rampant. Ignorance and utter stupidity is still around on a large scale.

    Ok. But it is much better than it used to be and is not getting worse.


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    #102
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Zillah wrote: »
    Ok. But it is much better than it used to be and is not getting worse.

    Well, in terms of what I can and cannot do as a female of the species this is the best time period to live so far.

    Now there were other cultures in the past that accorded women pretty good rights - but we have antibiotics now so no contest imo.

    I am trying to believe that things will get even 'better' but...there is always a but.

    I have pondered the concept of reincarnation quite a lot and have yet to decide if I believe it or if I want to believe it - it just seems such a waste to me of all the information our brains accumulate over our lifetime and carefully squirrels away for that to be deleted upon our deaths. Information that from the perspective of survival of the species we really don't need.

    I find the notion that all of that 'stuff' is part of a journey - like an information treasure hunt leading us...somewhere.... - quite attractive but as said I am not sure if I believe it or if I want to believe it as it means life has a purpose beyond just existing.


    I hate waste...


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    #103
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,849 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    After seeing the latest crap from some guy called "Maolseachlann" in today's Irish Times, I wonder if there's a link between being a firm believer that the Irish language is above all others and being a firm believer in the Catholic Church.


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    #104
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,965 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    I've had this discussion before, and concluded that you have to believe things without evidence when it comes to people. If you don't, you'll either annoy everyone around you with your constant questions, or fail to trust them at all. :cool:

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #105
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    bnt wrote: »
    I've had this discussion before, and concluded that you have to believe things without evidence when it comes to people. If you don't, you'll either annoy everyone around you with your constant questions, or fail to trust them at all. :cool:

    It's like he (she?) found my letters and read each one out loud. :mad:


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    #106
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    jank wrote: »
    Thats a very interesting point. Many people including many atheists believe that there is live out there in the universe yet there is no proof as such that there is.
    However when it comes to 'god' then they don't believe as there is no proof....

    Could never get my head around that one. Even Dawkins falls into that trap. How can one believe in something with no proof then be so strong in their belief that there is no god for lack of proof.

    Anyway, I also believe that there is life out there somewhere but also believe there is a maker behind the universe. I also believe that us humans have a mighty opinion of ourselves that has no basis in fact on this earth.

    Hang on. I thought you were an atheist! Am I wrong or are you both an atheist and someone who doesn't believe Alien life is out there? Just trying to figure out which area you have a problem with.


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    #107
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Hang on. I thought you were an atheist! Am I wrong or are you both an atheist and someone who doesn't believe Alien life is out there? Just trying to figure out which area you have a problem with.

    Contrarian.;)


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    #108
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    kylith wrote: »
    I fully believe that they feel affection toward me, and I know for a fact that one of them likes me better than my OH.
    But if you die, the dog will get hungry and eat you after a day or two, whereas the OH would hopefully provide a decent funeral.


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    #109
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Jernal wrote: »
    Contrarian.;)

    Almost Hitchens like :D


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    #110
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    The existence of life had no implications as regards the existence of god or otherwise. The fact is that there is no examples of supernatural phenomena whatsoever - not a one. Therefore you're extrapolating from absolutely nothing - a complete blank.

    Apart from the existance of the universe which cannot be explained at all. If a universe can be created that may nudge in at least the possibilty that there is a higher power in whatever shape or form.


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    #111
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    joseph brand wrote: »
    I think you're getting mixed up. There's a big difference between, having an open mind that somehow crazy as it seems a god who looked like a man with a beard created the whole universe and decided to just put sentient life on Earth, and following organised religion. Blind faith indeed. Organised religion which comes with a plethora of dogmatism, prejudice, hatred, ignorance, selfishness and delusion.

    By all means, have your little beliefs in a father-figure in the sky, who watches over you, to see if you're 'naughty or nice'. Just keep them out of schools and politics. Fair is fair.
    .

    Did i ever say that 'god' has to take the form of a man with a white beard? No, i didn't and I dont believe in such a god. I think you are confusing a religous god with what I would refer to pantheism.


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    #112
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    ShooterSF wrote: »
    Hang on. I thought you were an atheist! Am I wrong or are you both an atheist and someone who doesn't believe Alien life is out there? Just trying to figure out which area you have a problem with.

    Agnostic desit?


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    #113
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Zombrex wrote: »
    If I had to guess I would say 1, given the size of the universe and the quantity of material we know comes together to create life.

    Ah yea, but its just a guess, do you have evidenace or proof?

    Zombrex wrote: »
    So how is the argument that the universe is too something (complex, organised, ordered, perfect) to just exist an argument for God?

    Because no one have a fcuking clue to the origin of the Universe therefore people will speculate to its origins.... If you have cracked that one I am all ears.
    Zombrex wrote: »
    Belief in God is stupid. The arguments for belief in God are stupid. You just gave an argument and it was easy to point out why it is stupid.

    I suppose it depends what you define as 'god' as there seems to be a various definitions on that. The truth is nobody knows for sure that there is or not. To say that there might be a higher power or force somewhere out there to me is not stupid. If someone can prove to me that there isn't a god then fine as I cant prove to you there is one.

    Maybe Carl Sagan said it best.
    An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed


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    #114
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    ^^ Not one of Sagan's greatest quotes :)


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    #115
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    jank wrote: »
    I agree but on the same token one should be at least open to a God who created the universe if they are open to those thoughts.

    In other words EVERYONE should at least be agnostic if they are going to entertain thoughts of extraterritorial life.

    If you are an atheist than one should have the same logic and mindset to say that because there is no proof, therefore one lacks the belief in extraterritorial life, yet not many do that.

    In other words people are not rational or consistent with their logic.

    Why? 200 billion stars and evidence for life around one star = probability that there is life around others.

    Why do you think this has anything to do with the likelihood for the existence of god?


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    #116
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    jank wrote: »
    Agnostic desit?

    Interesting. Although I'm not sure what the question mark is for and I'm assuming you meant deist and just typo'd.

    Funnily enough that could have been your actual post on this thread given that non-interventionist gods would by their definition have no evidence! Unless you change the meaning of the word. Now at least I can see your argument from a better angle as it's now possible for you to see aliens as a possibility but take issue with someone who shares that belief while dismissing gods.

    But I guess if I was to accept any idea of a supernatural creation of our universe a god that no longer has any interest or isn't capable of or chooses not to interfere is the most probable but I only really disregard it because it's impossible to test (even more than theistic claims) and rather irrelevant to how we live considering it changes nothing ethically from an atheistic viewpoint.


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    #117
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Apart from the existance of the universe which cannot be explained at all. If a universe can be created that may nudge in at least the possibilty that there is a higher power in whatever shape or form.

    emmm...no. There are theories as regards the Universe origins which have a basis/origin in real world physics. There are no theories as regards a "higher power" that have a basis/origin in smaller scale supernatural phenomena. When you can come back with a supernatural phenomena, you'll have an argument.


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    #118
    joseph brand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    I believe my life is NOT the Truman Show. There have been times when a queue instantly appeared from nowhere, same with traffic.
    It's not impossible that all my friends are actors. Even you guys on here could be earning a salary posting here. You'd all know what I look like from TV.

    But I choose to not believe I'm a TV star, out of humility. Plus I don't wanna be crazy.


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    #119
    joseph brand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Nodin wrote: »


    Its unlikely in the extreme we will ever discover intelligent life, and only slightly less unlikely we'd discover evidence of life at all, given the distances involved. Thats the harsh reality of it.

    I find the image in this link, which is relevant, fascinating.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2107061/Earth-calling-Tiny-yellow-dot-shows-distance-radio-broadcasts-aliens-travelled.html


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    #120
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    joseph brand wrote: »
    I believe my life is NOT the Truman Show. There have been times when a queue instantly appeared from nowhere, same with traffic.
    It's not impossible that all my friends are actors. Even you guys on here could be earning a salary posting here. You'd all know what I look like from TV.

    But I choose to not believe I'm a TV star, out of humility. Plus I don't wanna be crazy.

    May I just say those are lovely trousers you are wearing today Joseph.


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    #121
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    recedite wrote: »
    But if you die, the dog will get hungry and eat you after a day or two, whereas the OH would hopefully provide a decent funeral.

    No he wouldn't! A cat would probably start eating you at the drop of a hat, but a dog is likely to stand guard over your corpse long after you are dead. Even in death they still serve (paging Galvasean for a reference no one else will get).

    Of course, evolutionarily it makes sense, as the dead guy's tribe are likely to come looking for his body and then the dog will be adopted by someone else...but its still adorable.


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