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What do you believe without evidence? If anything.

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    #32
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    jank wrote: »
    Thats a very interesting point. Many people including many atheists believe that there is live out there in the universe yet there is no proof as such that there is.
    However when it comes to 'god' then they don't believe as there is no proof....

    Could never get my head around that one. Even Dawkins falls into that trap. How can one believe in something with no proof then be so strong in their belief that there is no god for lack of proof.

    You are aware there is life on Earth, correct?

    We already know that life can exist in this universe, we are evidence of this fact. The notion that life can exist else were simply requires the reproduction of circumstance. And given the size of the universe that seems likely.

    If you showed me an example of a god that exists (doesn't matter which one) then I would have more time for entertaining the idea that more than one exists.

    Can you show me the first god exists? Cause I can show you the first example of life in this universe.


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    #33
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,242 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    OK. I'm going to go out on a limb here.....

    I believe......

















    ..... that someday, on of my well-meaning contributions to threads on the christianity forum will be read, considered, and alter a world-view.

    Oh, and that someday BB and RTDH will be proved right. About something...

    I'm an optimist in the face of reality.


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    #34
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Seems as usual people cant take a discussion lying down.

    Is there proof of aliens other than oursleves? No there isn't.
    Is there proof of god. No there isn't.

    Everything else is window dressing. Yes, we exist in the universe but that doesnt prove that we are not alone nor does us being here in the universe prove that god exists.

    Is everyone secretly an Agnostic?;)


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    #35
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    jank wrote: »
    Seems as usual people cant take a discussion lying down.

    Is there proof of aliens other than oursleves? No there isn't.
    Is there proof of god. No there isn't.

    Everything else is window dressing. Yes, we exist in the universe but that doesnt prove that we are not alone nor does us being here in the universe prove that god exists.

    Is everyone secretly an Agnostic?;)

    Proof doesn't exist outside of mathematics. You don't have proof for anything you believe about the real world, whether it is the belief that God exists or the belief that you are in a house on Earth eating your breakfast. What you do have is various degrees of satisfactory evidence and reason for believing that this is the case. You can never prove it to be the case (you might actually be in the Matrix), but then you can never prove anything about the world.

    There is far more reason to believe aliens probably exist than there is to believe God probably exists. We can prove neither (even if you met aliens it wouldn't prove they exists), but that doesn't mean both are of equivalent. One is a reasonable belief based on both the existence of life on Earth and the size of the universe. The other is stupidity based on ego-centralism and faulty logic.


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    #36
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    jank wrote: »
    Seems as usual people cant take a discussion lying down.

    Is there proof of aliens other than oursleves? No there isn't.
    Is there proof of god. No there isn't.

    Everything else is window dressing. Yes, we exist in the universe but that doesnt prove that we are not alone nor does us being here in the universe prove that god exists.

    Is everyone secretly an Agnostic?;)

    But we do have proof of life in the universe, though. We are that proof.

    We know that there are roughly 200 billion stars in our galaxy.

    To me, it seems highly unlikely that, with such numbers, ours is the only star system that has produced life.

    This does not prove that there is life out there, though: it just means that the belief that there is life out there is justified, based on statistical likelihood. Or am I wrong...?


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    #37
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Seems as usual people cant take a discussion lying down.
    .....

    No, people refuse to allow crap to go unquestioned. Its healthy.

    We have an example of a planet with life on it - our own. We have no/zero examples of any form of supernatural phenomena/life whatsoever. Not a one.


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    #38
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,329 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    jank wrote: »
    Is everyone secretly an Agnostic?;)

    I think most people here are agnostics.

    I'm agnostic because I don't know if a god or gods exist.
    I'm atheist because I don't believe any god or gods exist.

    The two aren't mutually exclusive.

    I also believe in life on other planets. Like someone else said, billions of stars with even more billions of planets and moons... I think it'd be ridiculous to assume we are on the only planet in the Universe which supports some form of life, even if it's just some sort of plant life.


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    #39
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I don't believe in anything as a matter of fact without evidence, but I do suspect some things have a strong probability of being true - even in lack of evidence. Life outside Earth is one of them, as previously highlighted.

    Aren't probability estimates not built on evidence? Does the other life in the universe belief really not have that much evidence?


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    #40
    al28283
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭al28283


    old hippy wrote: »
    In a universe this vast and infinite, there has to be something alien out there. Now, whether it's sentient gas/algae/amoeba - who knows? I think it's vanity to think alien life would automatically be humanoid - and also a vanity to believe we are all there is.

    But if there are an infinite number of universes there must be an infinite amount of universes where humans are the only lifeform


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    #41
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    al28283 wrote: »
    But if there are an infinite number of universes there must be an infinite amount of universes where humans are the only lifeform
    Que?


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    #42
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    al28283 wrote: »
    But if there are an infinite number of universes there must be an infinite amount of universes where humans are the only lifeform

    Correct. There must also be an infinite amount of universe where humans are not the only lifeform.

    Infinity is fun :p


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    #43
    al28283
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭al28283


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Que?

    I said if there are an infinite number of universes there must be an infinite amount of universes where humans are the only lifeform


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    #44
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    al28283 wrote: »
    I said if there are an infinite number of universes there must be an infinite amount of universes where humans are the only lifeform
    Que?


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    #45
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Life outside Earth is one of them, as previously highlighted.
    Frank Drake is the guy you're looking for:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation


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    #46
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Que?

    He's making the standard mistake of the "if an infinite number of universes exist, then everything imaginable must exist". So if there's an infinite number of universes there's always more where only humans exist.

    If I understand correctly (and I genuinely stand to be corrected) even if this were established as true, infinity is merely the opposite of finite, as in there'd be an unending stream of realities, but not necessarily in any of them would ever exist a certain set of circumstances. Another problem is even if there were an infinite number of dimensions, there's only so many different configurations of atoms that could be formed in it (Much like if you randomly shuffled a deck of cards there would only be a certain number of ways the deck could be stacked, even if shuffled infinitely- 52 x 51 x 50...)

    So yeah anyway infinite apparently doesn't mean what most people think, when it comes to universes and realities and stuff.


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    #47
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    What do I believe without evidence? I believe that my dogs love me. I believe that, one day, I will start that diet.

    I can't think of anything else right now.


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    #48
    al28283
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭al28283


    Doctor DooM wrote: »
    So if there's an infinite number of universes there's always more where only humans exist.

    How can there be more than Inifinite???


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    #49
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    al28283 wrote: »
    How can there be more than Inifinite???

    You're misreading my post.


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    #50
    al28283
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭al28283


    Doctor DooM wrote: »
    You're misreading my post.

    I don't believe I am but I have no evidence of that ;)


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    #51
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I sometimes believe I can play football like Roberto Baggio, despite much evidence to the contrary.


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    #52
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    al28283 wrote: »
    How can there be more than Inifinite???

    Infinity in cosmological terms is not the same as infinity in mathematical terms and even then infinity in mathematical terms isn't what you'd intuitively consider it to be anyway. I'm not even going to attempt to explain it any further than that.


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    #53
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Doctor DooM wrote: »
    He's making the standard mistake of the "if an infinite number of universes exist, then everything imaginable must exist". So if there's an infinite number of universes there's always more where only humans exist.

    If I understand correctly (and I genuinely stand to be corrected) even if this were established as true, infinity is merely the opposite of finite, as in there'd be an unending stream of realities, but not necessarily in any of them would ever exist a certain set of circumstances. Another problem is even if there were an infinite number of dimensions, there's only so many different configurations of atoms that could be formed in it (Much like if you randomly shuffled a deck of cards there would only be a certain number of ways the deck could be stacked, even if shuffled infinitely- 52 x 51 x 50...)

    So yeah anyway infinite apparently doesn't mean what most people think, when it comes to universes and realities and stuff.

    It is entirely possible that in an infinite number of universe there would be an infinite number of universes where only humans exist, since this is possible outcome.

    The point that al28283 seems to be missing is that in an infinite number of universe there would also be an infinite number of universes where Earth is not the only planet with life on it.

    The problem is thinking of infinity as, well, finite. Two mutually exclusive scenarios can exist together if infinity is true (infinite number of universes with no life together with infinite number of universes with life everywhere)


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    #54
    General Relativity
    Closed Accounts Posts: 683 ✭✭✭General Relativity


    Jernal wrote: »
    Infinity in cosmological terms is not the same as infinity in mathematical terms and even then infinity in mathematical terms isn't what you'd intuitively consider it to be anyway. I'm not even going to attempt to explain it any further than that.

    There are different types of infinity, some are bigger then others.


    1, 2, 3, 4, 5.... Is an Infinite set

    Add all the intergers;

    1, -1, 2, -2, 3, -3, 4, -4, 5, -5... Is also an infinite set but has twice as many numbers.


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    #55
    al28283
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭al28283


    Zombrex wrote: »
    The point that al28283 seems to be missing is that in an infinite number of universe there would also be an infinite number of universes where Earth is not the only planet with life on it.

    I didnt say anything about universes where Earth is not the only planet with life.


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    #56
    Sycopat
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Sycopat


    al28283 wrote: »
    But if there are an infinite number of universes there must be an infinite amount of universes where humans are the only lifeform


    I consider it a very good thing we definitely don't live in one of those.


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    #57
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Zombrex wrote: »

    There is far more reason to believe aliens probably exist than there is to believe God probably exists. We can prove neither (even if you met aliens it wouldn't prove they exists), but that doesn't mean both are of equivalent. One is a reasonable belief based on both the existence of life on Earth and the size of the universe. The other is stupidity based on ego-centralism and faulty logic.

    Well reason and the 'reasonable' you state is subjective.

    The universe is rather large so what are the odds that there is life out there other than ourselves?

    The universe is so complex and vast how could be just be without a maker behind it?

    Both require a leap of faith, yet atheists have no problem in making this leap when it comes to UFO's yet are adamant that a belief in god is stupid.


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    #58
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    pauldla wrote: »
    This does not prove that there is life out there, though: it just means that the belief that there is life out there is justified, based on statistical likelihood. Or am I wrong...?

    I agree but on the same token one should be at least open to a God who created the universe if they are open to those thoughts.

    In other words EVERYONE should at least be agnostic if they are going to entertain thoughts of extraterritorial life.

    If you are an atheist than one should have the same logic and mindset to say that because there is no proof, therefore one lacks the belief in extraterritorial life, yet not many do that.

    In other words people are not rational or consistent with their logic.


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    #59
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, people refuse to allow crap to go unquestioned. Its healthy.

    We have an example of a planet with life on it - our own. We have no/zero examples of any form of supernatural phenomena/life whatsoever. Not a one.

    The fact the we exist doesn't mean that there are aliens out there, nor does it mean that god exists.


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    #60
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Penn wrote: »
    I think most people here are agnostics.

    I'm agnostic because I don't know if a god or gods exist.
    I'm atheist because I don't believe any god or gods exist.

    The two aren't mutually exclusive.

    I also believe in life on other planets. Like someone else said, billions of stars with even more billions of planets and moons... I think it'd be ridiculous to assume we are on the only planet in the Universe which supports some form of life, even if it's just some sort of plant life.

    You don't believe in God I presume because there is no proof or evidence, yet you believe in life on other planets but there is no proof or evidence of that either. In short you are taking a leap of faith in this matter.

    I presume many are familiar with Fermi's paradox?
    The Fermi paradox (or Fermi's paradox) is the apparent contradiction between high estimates of the probability of the existence of extraterrestrial civilization and humanity's lack of contact with, or evidence for, such civilizations.[1] The basic points of the argument are:

    The sun is a young star. There are billions of stars in the galaxy that are billions of years older;

    Some of these stars likely have Earth-like planets[2] which, if the Earth is typical, may develop intelligent life;

    Presumably some of these civilizations will develop interstellar travel, as Earth seems likely to do;

    At any practical pace of interstellar travel, the galaxy can be completely colonized in just a few tens of millions of years.

    According to this line of thinking, the Earth should have already been colonized, or at least visited. But no convincing evidence of this exists. Furthermore, no confirmed signs of intelligence elsewhere have been spotted, either in our galaxy or the more than 80 billion other galaxies of the observable universe. Hence Fermi's question "Where is everybody?".

    Taken from wiki.


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    #61
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Jank, why do you assume we're all talking about intelligent life and UFOs?


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