Analogue still alive and well in NW donegal (deflector)

darth_maul

The mullaghduff deflector system is still active and pumping out 5 analogue stations. Wonder how long they will get away with this? Picture quality is quite good now that most
other sources of interference are gone.

The Cush

darth_maul wrote: »

The mullaghduff deflector system is still active and pumping out 5 analogue stations. Wonder how long they will get away with this?

Still legal until 31 Dec 2012.

There are 4 licensed deflector sites in Donegal (and 1 each in Sligo and Waterford)
MAGHEROARTY
CRUIT ISLAND
ARDUN HILL (The Glen)
DRUMNACART

darth_maul

Seriously that's amazing that they weren't ordered to close at DSO, causing huge confusion here especially among elderly, who were repeatedly told that all transmissions would cease., I can't understand why the operators didn't take the opportunity to close while all other analogue transmissions were being turned off. They are now even more pointless than ever before. all the others have long closed. Mullaghaduff is the drumnacart one.

The Cush

darth_maul wrote: »

Seriously that's amazing that they weren't ordered to close at DSO,

Only if their transmissions interfered with DTT which was a possibility when a 4 mux DTT service was planned a few years ago.

darth_maul

Have got 2 calls from people that I have put FTA systems in for complaining that I lied to them as they can still get all their UK channels through the aerial, won't believe that it will eventually go

The Cush

darth_maul wrote: »

won't believe that it will eventually go

of course they could continue after that date without a licence.

Comreg - Response to Consultation and Decision: The future of Deflector Licensing in Ireland, Jun 2012

Antenna

darth_maul wrote: »

Seriously that's amazing that they weren't ordered to close at DSO, causing huge confusion here especially among elderly, who were repeatedly told that all transmissions would cease., I can't understand why the operators didn't take the opportunity to close while all other analogue transmissions were being turned off. They are now even more pointless than ever before. all the others have long closed. Mullaghaduff is the drumnacart one.

31 December was decided on long before the 24th October was.
It is still the case that deflectors have to vacate if they were to clash with any new national DTT transmitters or any digital dividend spectrum (upper UHF) users actually commencing services in the area concerned before 31th December (not going to happen).

The closure of most other deflectors in the past couple of years had a lot more to do with financial reasons (dwindling subscriptions from viewers) than ASO of the national network. If there was no FTA satellite of BBC and ITV a lot more of them would still be on air right now, and looking to be able to continue into 2013 with either analogue or a conversion to DTT transmissions. Analogue deflector style operations in the USA can still continue to September 2015, even though ASO for the main transmitters there was in 2009 !

Its possible some deflector viewers in Donegal have a satellite shadow of 28E, so still a worthwhile service for some people.

darth_maul wrote: »

Have got 2 calls from people that I have put FTA systems in for complaining that I lied to them as they can still get all their UK channels through the aerial, won't believe that it will eventually go

Had the deflectors earlier announced that they too would close on the 24th October and later changed their mind?

Facilitating sellers of satellite systems for UK channels is not going to be seen as good enough reason by the authorities to close them down now.

The Cush

Antenna wrote: »

31 December was decided on long before the 24th October was.

The decision not to extend the licensing of deflectors beyond 31st Dec was only made in Jun. The licences had to be renewed annually.

watty

The superior service of Freesat is killing them off. I doubt there are more than a handful of Donegal people that can't get Freeview or Freesat.

eirman

Their future may depend on whether the future owners of the spectrum in question want vacant possession before they bid.

formerly scottish paddy

Thought they had to be gone by end of year?

Antenna

eirman wrote: »

Their future may depend on whether the future owners of the spectrum in question want vacant possession before they bid.

Firstly this is only an issue at all in a few small areas of the country.

Deflectors have already had to vacate spectrum used for Saorview, analogue TV3 etc etc in their areas.

The 'dividend' spectrum concerned is Chs 60-69.
Any deflectors in the 800MHz dividend area could easily move to channels below 60 vacated by the ASO of the national analogue network.
With no commercial DTT MUXs, the reality is there is a lot of spectrum which remains allocated to TV broadcasting now sitting disused since 24th October - and that is excluding the so-called dividend spectrum.

eirman

Antenna wrote: »

The 'dividend' spectrum concerned is Chs 60-69.
With no commercial DTT MUXs, the reality is there is a lot of spectrum which remains allocated to TV broadcasting now sitting disused since 24th October - and that is excluding the so-called dividend spectrum.

I didn't know that the 'dividend' spectrum was only 60-69

What will happen to ... 30 >>> 50?

watty

There was little justification for Deflectors. The MMDS licences should have mandated universal coverage outside cable areas, a road map for Digital and also real Broadband (Exists elsewhere, Digiweb Metro is similar and has been demoed here near MMDS band. Two way MMDS with TV and Broadband is available off the shelf. But Comreg forbid it as they want to sell the MMDS band to inferior LTE).

Instead politicians, civil service and Regulators crippled infrastructure development.

Deflector licences should not have been renewed even two years ago. The original reason for them is long gone.

It would be the thin end of a really stupid wedge to extend the life of them now.

watty

What will happen to ... 30 >>> 50?

Ch 21 to Ch 60 is DTT. There is not even enough space for future expansion of all channels HD, 3D, Ultra HD or pay TV. The "Digital Dividend" is simply a once of revenue raising exercise and a new cheaper to run (but not ever broadband) Mobile Band.

The Consumer won't benefit at all.
Also the LTE handsets and Modems will interfere with Cable TV and Cable broadband and the LTE base stations will overload mast head amps and block DTT for 1000s of people.

Mycroft H

Can anyone explain to me what a deflector is?

watty

It's an Irish euphemism for originally an illegal transmitter fed by a receiver, an illegal repeater or transposer*. They called them Deflectors to suggest it was passive (passive Deflectors or "Beam benders" are possible).

Due to the use political nonsense in this country they got legalised to when it was thought DTT would start and then extended a year at a time.

Many switched to Sky Digital feeds instead of off air and then Freesat feeds.

The BBC, then ITV, then C4 and finally 5 going FTA on Freesat and the 85% take up of Sky/UPC made them pointless and most have closed.

I think 6 still licensed (till December 2012) and only 5 are left on air.

Many were very poor quality.

It indeed was an Irish solution to an Irish Desire, rather than the "proper" solution.

I can't see any continuing even if they could as it's hard to see how they can cover running costs. By law as part of getting a licence they have to pay fees to UK broadcaster.

No-where in the world is it legal to rebroadcast even Free to air without permission of the broadcaster. Some channels are "free to carry". None of the main UK channels are. UPC, Dutch cable, Sky in Ireland, Casey etc have to pay BBC, ITV, C4, 5 etc.

DWTV and BBC World TV are Free To Carry, but you need permission in Writing.


[* Technically a Transposer has filters and maybe an IF and changes the frequency, a repeater has an entire receiver and then a modulator feeding a Transmitter. A Deflector (beam bender is two aerials at opposite polarity. An active one can have maybe 12dB gain amplifier between the aerials. True deflectors are very rare as the performance and range is terrible]

The Cush

BX 19 wrote: »

Can anyone explain to me what a deflector is?

This from wikipedia

Deflectors (UHF Television Programme Retransmission)

In rural areas where neither cable or MMDS are available, UHF Television Programme Retransmission systems or deflectors pick up the UK terrestrial channels (either from Northern Ireland or Wales), and retransmit them on local UHF signals along with other channels. These operators faced legal action in the late 1990s from MMDS operators, as they did not pay royalties to the relevant broadcasters, and were not licensed. When the deflectors were shut down, there was such an outcry in those areas that an independent election candidate in County Donegal, Tom Gildea, was elected as a TD on a platform of supporting legalisation, which occurred in 1999.

Deflectors were first licensed in 1999 by the then spectrum regulator, the ODTR. The current regulations, Wireless Telegraphy (UHF Television Programme Retransmission) Regulations, 2009 will be the last for deflectors, all deflector licences expire in Dec 2012 and will not be renewed due to the roll-out of DTT in Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_in_Ireland#Deflectors_.28UHF_Television_Programme_Retransmission.29

Tom Gildea was elected as TD for Donegal SE back in 1997 as a single issue candidate on the issue of deflector licensing - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Gildea

Comreg 1999 consultation and decision on deflector licensing
http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/odtr9932.pdf
http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/odtr9955.pdf

Antenna

darth_maul wrote: »

Have got 2 calls from people that I have put FTA systems in for complaining that I lied to them as they can still get all their UK channels through the aerial, won't believe that it will eventually go

Is it really the case they don't think any of the extra satellite channels (beyond BBC/UTV/C4) are worthwhile?
Is this with older people? - amongst all what they would regard as rubbish there are of course worthwhile channels - BBC 4, + 1 channels of ITV, C4, etc news channels etc etc
Are they interested in country music - the Irish stuff broadcast on Showcase Channel?
Did you highlight what channels they would likely be interested in?

darth_maul wrote: »

Wonder how long they will get away with this?

There are other broadcasts in north donegal which remained on-air in a frequency band completely abandoned by RTE in 2008, and its still there to this day. No-one seems to be too bothered about that.

darth_maul

Antenna wrote: »

Is it really the case they don't think any of the extra satellite channels (beyond BBC/UTV/C4) are worthwhile?
Is this with older people? - amongst all what they would regard as rubbish there are of course worthwhile channels - BBC 4, + 1 channels of ITV, C4, etc news channels etc etc
Are they interested in country music - the Irish stuff broadcast on Showcase Channel?
Did you highlight what channels they would likely be interested in?

Always go through all the channels available with customers before and after installation, a lot of older people don't care bout any channels other that the main Irish and UK channels, have had people say to me many times "I won't be using any of them" while showing them the extra channels they have gained.

endakenny

All the UK terrestrial channels are digital. So how is it technologically possible for deflectors, which are analogue and have to shut down at the end of this year, to carry UK terrestrial channels?

endakenny

darth_maul wrote: »

Always go through all the channels available with customers before and after installation, a lot of older people don't care bout any channels other that the main Irish and UK channels, have had people say to me many times "I won't be using any of them" while showing them the extra channels they have gained.

They'll probably stop thinking that when, while watching BBC1 or BBC2, they see trailers for programmes that are broadcast on BBC3 and BBC4. The same goes for More4 and E4 programme trailers on Channel 4.

Richard

endakenny wrote: »

All the UK terrestrial channels are digital. So how is it technologically possible for deflectors, which are analogue and have to shut down at the end of this year, to carry UK terrestrial channels?

They're just transmitters. They have another source (presumably a satellite box) for each channel that they rebroadcast.

endakenny

Thanks, Richard.

Antenna

Can confirm the deflector serving Tramore and other parts of east Co. Waterford is still on air.

UHF 48, 51, 61, 69 Vertical.

I could pickup very weak (not useable) signals from it on a mobile setup whilst parked at Knockadoon Head Co. Cork (mostly across a sea path to where it is) a couple of days ago with the ch69 (channel 4) - being most noticeable (69 a very clear channel) . The Ch 69 probably borderline watchable level there with a better setup.

Richard

Antenna wrote: »

Can confirm the deflector serving Tramore and other parts of east Co. Waterford is still on air.

UHF 48, 51, 61, 69 Vertical.

I could pickup very weak (not useable) signals from it on a mobile setup whilst parked at Knockadoon Head Co. Cork (mostly across a sea path to where it is) a couple of days ago with the ch69 (channel 4) - being most noticeable (69 a very clear channel) . The Ch 69 probably borderline watchable level there with a better setup.

Out of interest, what region are the other 3 channels?

STB

If deflector systems still exist why arent they carrying the Irish stations ???

In these days of Freesat there can be no justification for such a system unless it is a self help system for Irish channels. Not just used for rebroadcasting UK channels.

There is another thread about some guy who can pick up the deflector system in Donegal but not Saorview! What channels are these guys broadcasting on ?

marno21

I'd imagine South Coast would still be on the air if they weren't bankrupt (pity they never started a DVB-T deflector)

Many of South Coast's transmitters transmitted into areas of poor RTE reception, and even carried RTE On some masts. Fountainstown, Belgooly and I think Minane Bridge carried RTE. Inishannon transmitted BBC channels into an area of poor RTE reception. Fennell's Bay (Myrtleville) transmitted into another area of poor reception.

razor_ryan

Richard wrote: »

Out of interest, what region are the other 3 channels?

All from a satellite feed bbc itv ch4 granada region

watty

I'd imagine South Coast would still be on the air if they weren't bankrupt (pity they never started a DVB-T deflector)

Ironically after opposing MMDS as "dangerous" they did run a 12GHz DVB-s based MMDS, with a licence, that would have still been legal today.

They were offered ability to to have real Broadband on the same system and turned it down.

Mike 1972

Ive heard reports that the deflector near Castlebar, Co.Mayo has returned to the air. (It was supposed to have ceased permanently on 1st May 2012)

Ch 39 (H) TV3
Ch 42 (H) ITV
Ch 47 (H) BBC1
Ch 53 (H) BBC2
Ch 56 (H) Channel 4


It also ocasionally transmits local programming !!!

marno21

Wonder where TV3 is sourced from?

It's weird that the people near Castlebar had great RTE1, RTE2 and TG4 on analogue and no TV3, now it's the opposite

BBC2 on C53 likely suffers interference from Truskmore, and perhaps BBC1 on C47 from Achill

Mr Cumulonimbus

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Ive heard reports that the deflector near Castlebar, Co.Mayo has returned to the air. (It was supposed to have ceased permanently on 1st May 2012)

Ch 39 (H) TV3
Ch 42 (H) ITV
Ch 47 (H) BBC1
Ch 53 (H) BBC2
Ch 56 (H) Channel 4


It also ocasionally transmits local programming !!!

MCTV's group of deflectors went off the air on that date. The Castlebar deflector was run by a separate operator and remained on air after that. The brother in laws house still has an aerial up which received transmissions from the Westport deflector (one of MCTV's).

UTV on the Westport deflector, like Castlebar, was also on ch 42. Once that was gone in May, a weak picture from C'bar was visible at that time. I actually checked ch 42 a couple of days ago to see if there was anything and there wasn't. I'll check again to see.

endakenny

Why was nothing done to allow a legal terrestrial retransmission of UK channels in the Republic after ASO for which viewers who cannot access satellite or cable could have paid a subscription?

The Cush

endakenny wrote: »

Why was nothing done to allow a legal terrestrial retransmission of UK channels in the Republic after ASO for which viewers who cannot access satellite or cable could have paid a subscription?

The planned commercial DTT project, which would have included the UK channels, ended in failure in early May 2010.

In your first post and thread here on boards, during the negotiations process you appeared to have a different opinion on this - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64556894, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64557138.

watty

endakenny wrote: »

Why was nothing done to allow a legal terrestrial retransmission of UK channels in the Republic after ASO for which viewers who cannot access satellite or cable could have paid a subscription?

So much effort was put into this financially un-viable idea that it held up Saorview for 12 years on one level and 2 years on another.

Someone has to pay and you can't compete with free via Satellite. If Freesat had existed the Cable networks, MMDS and so called "Deflectors" would never have existed. Cable and MMDS later became multichannel TV in the modern sense, but the original market was to provide BBC & ITV.

Cerco

endakenny wrote: »

Why was nothing done to allow a legal terrestrial retransmission of UK channels in the Republic after ASO for which viewers who cannot access satellite or cable could have paid a subscription?

I doubt if there are any who cannot access either cable or satellite. Well , on reflection, maybe a very small few. It would not make economic sense as was illustrated by the non-interest in providing the service you mention.

endakenny

The Cush wrote: »

In your first post and thread here on boards, during the negotiations process you appeared to have a different opinion on this - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64556894, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64557138.

That was before I realised that some people cannot use satellite or cable because:

1. They live in rented accomodation and the landlord won't give permission.

2. Line of sight is blocked by trees that cannot be cut down because either they're on someone else's land or there's a preservation order on them.

3. Their homes are too remote to access cable.

endakenny

watty wrote: »

So much effort was put into this financially un-viable idea that it held up Saorview for 12 years on one level and 2 years on another.

Someone has to pay and you can't compete with free via Satellite. If Freesat had existed the Cable networks, MMDS and so called "Deflectors" would never have existed. Cable and MMDS later became multichannel TV in the modern sense, but the original market was to provide BBC & ITV.

If the transmission network had been privatised it would have been run more efficiently. Therefore, the fees that commercial broadcasters would have had to pay to be able to operate pay-DTT would have been lower.

watty

No, Arqiva would likely charge more. They'd have a monopoly.

The DTT fees are not high. You can ignore any statement by TV3.

Also we would do it wrong. Eircom is used as case study by the World bank on how NOT to privatise and how a privatised monopoly ended up with highest price in World for line rental (thus Lines > 82% to under 50% and net asset stripping, no net investment).

Cerco

endakenny wrote: »

That was before I realised that some people cannot use satellite or cable because:

1. They live in rented accomodation and the landlord won't give permission.

2. Line of sight is blocked by trees that cannot be cut down because either they're on someone else's land or there's a preservation order on them.

3. Their homes are too remote to access cable.

So you therefore assume that:

1. The landlord will allow an antenna to be mounted but not a dish.
2. Line of sight is clear enough for DTT.
3. DTT is available in these remote areas but not satellite.

Perhaps there are some that fit into these categories but not many.

watty

Maybe campaign that Landlords should provide communal system if mor than one dwelling in building and otherwise has no right to prevent install done according to local council regulations by a reputable company.

Mr Cumulonimbus

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Ive heard reports that the deflector near Castlebar, Co.Mayo has returned to the air. (It was supposed to have ceased permanently on 1st May 2012)

Ch 39 (H) TV3
Ch 42 (H) ITV
Ch 47 (H) BBC1
Ch 53 (H) BBC2
Ch 56 (H) Channel 4

Checked again. Definitely a weak picture on ch 56 (Channel 4).

c ashelmore

Was up in the Fanad area, Donegal at Halloween surprised to find analog still on Channels 39,42,45,49.Not sure where from.Also existing setup was picking up Saorview on 30,53and 55(,Holywell Hill,Letterkenny and Fanad) Tried in vain to pick up Limavady with a Televes aerial and Freeview box-nothing.Then tried a Unix 52 with masthead amp and surprisingly got about 50 Freeview channels.Surprisingly because the aerial was aimed at Sliabh Sneacht mountain in line with Limavady.So it should be possibly to get both Saorview(Holywell Hill,not Fanad tansmitter) and Freeview on the one aerial if you live in that area.

winston_1

Are any of these analogue transmitters using NICAM?

The Cush

c ashelmore wrote: »

Was up in the Fanad area, Donegal at Halloween surprised to find analog still on Channels 39,42,45,49.Not sure where from.

In 2011 that group of frequencies were licensed to Mayo Community Television at Farnacht in Mayo, not licensed in Donegal in 2011 or 2012.

watty

winston_1 wrote: »

Are any of these analogue transmitters using NICAM?

Very doubtful.
A Nicam encoder is very expensive. AFAIK no domestic modulator ever had Nicam (NICAM VHS only records in Analogue FM stereo and plays Mono on RF and Stereo analogue audio on RCA jacks/SCART. Maybe some CATV/MATV head end modules do it, but hardly cheap.

winston_1

watty wrote: »

Very doubtful.
A Nicam encoder is very expensive. AFAIK no domestic modulator ever had Nicam (NICAM VHS only records in Analogue FM stereo and plays Mono on RF and Stereo analogue audio on RCA jacks/SCART. Maybe some CATV/MATV head end modules do it, but hardly cheap.

I've got a Nicam encoder in my garage made by SPT in Essex. It came cheap from a radio rally.
The Nicam signal is inserted at IF 39.5 MHz. This requires a semi professional modulator which modulates at IF and up converts. Got one of those at the rally as well. It operates on ch61 and am using it a present to give an analogue signal around the house

marno21

The Cush wrote: »

In 2011 that group of frequencies were licensed to Mayo Community Television at Farnacht in Mayo, not licensed in Donegal in 2011 or 2012.

Most of the allocations received by the deflectors are different to the actual channels used. Also a lot of deflectors changed frequencies when DTT was switched in in 2008/09 in order to prevent interference, and because RTENL were quatro broadcasting 4 muxes (likely to deliberately cause interferecen.)

eg
East Ferry allocaiton 21 24 28 32
East Ferry actual 34 47 50 52
Myrtleville allocation 41 44 47 51
Myrtleville actual 39 43 46 51

etc.

watty

winston_1 wrote: »

I've got a Nicam encoder in my garage made by SPT in Essex. It came cheap from a radio rally.
The Nicam signal is inserted at IF 39.5 MHz. This requires a semi professional modulator which modulates at IF and up converts. Got one of those at the rally as well. It operates on ch61 and am using it a present to give an analogue signal around the house

Well ex-broadcast ones will likely turn up for nothing now. Obviously I was writing about catalogue purchases rather than someone going round the Rallies and hoping to find 4 Nicam generators.

oldperson

I'm in Donegal at the moment and had trouble persuading people that I was still receiving analogue channels. I'm pleased to see I was not imagining it.

I have an Alba Saorview box and, although I assume I should be able to receive some Freeview channels via the Alba box now that the strength of the Freeview signals has been increased, the Alba box asks for the country (when in the installation menu) and, if you input Ireland, it only gives the Saorview channels. It does not offer UK as a country option. Does anyone know a way round this?

I would like the main UK channels in place before we lose the analogue channels which are currently being received in reasonable quality; it will be a shame if we lose them.

PS Perhaps I should be asking about the Alba Saorview box in a different forum?