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Formula 1 2012: Round 17 - Indian Grand Prix

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭ frostie500


    The hierarchy of the F1 drivers is pretty clear to be honest.
    1. There is the elite "tier one" drivers (Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel)
    2. "Tier two" has the likes of Button, Raikkonen (just because he hasnt refound his old single lap quali speed yet), Rosberg, Webber
    3. Then the young drivers such as Perez, Hulkenberg, Maldonado, Grosjean etc. who have shown a lot of potential but still need to smooth out some rough edges
    4. and the rest of the field

    I dont get it how so many fans cant, or more likely wont, see that there is very little to seperate the likes of Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel. And as far as Im concerned if you put any of those into the red bull for the last three years they would have won a couple of titles. No doubt in my mind about that. When you have elite drivers in a great car they will win races.

    Its when they're in a poor car that we see their true ability shine. Look at Vettel at Monza in 08, Hamilton in 09 and Alonso in the renault in 08 and this years Ferrari.

    The car has improved throughout the year but it is far from the best car on the grid. It has lacked one lap speed for most of the year (bar a couple of mid-season races) and Alonso has pulled out great performances to be in position to win the title.

    Drivers can only race with the car they have. Vettel has done an amazing job the last four races but it shouldnt undermine the performances of Alonso throughout the year. He built up his championship lead by having a fast and reliable car with which he made very few mistakes and capitalised on Seb's and lewis' retirements but it shouldnt be taken for granted that cos he led the championship he had the best car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,146 StephenHendry


    frostie500 wrote: »
    The hierarchy of the F1 drivers is pretty clear to be honest.
    1. There is the elite "tier one" drivers (Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel)
    2. "Tier two" has the likes of Button, Raikkonen (just because he hasnt refound his old single lap quali speed yet), Rosberg, Webber
    3. Then the young drivers such as Perez, Hulkenberg, Maldonado, Grosjean etc. who have shown a lot of potential but still need to smooth out some rough edges
    4. and the rest of the field
    I dont get it how so many fans cant, or more likely wont, see that there is very little to seperate the likes of Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel. And as far as Im concerned if you put any of those into the red bull for the last three years they would have won a couple of titles. No doubt in my mind about that. When you have elite drivers in a great car they will win races.

    Its when they're in a poor car that we see their true ability shine. Look at Vettel at Monza in 08, Hamilton in 09 and Alonso in the renault in 08 and this years Ferrari.

    The car has improved throughout the year but it is far from the best car on the grid. It has lacked one lap speed for most of the year (bar a couple of mid-season races) and Alonso has pulled out great performances to be in position to win the title.

    Drivers can only race with the car they have. Vettel has done an amazing job the last four races but it shouldnt undermine the performances of Alonso throughout the year. He built up his championship lead by having a fast and reliable car with which he made very few mistakes and capitalised on Seb's and lewis' retirements but it shouldnt be taken for granted that cos he led the championship he had the best car.

    Fernando has done great to keep himself in with a chance especially getting that second place on sunday, i think redbull have made too many step forwards for ferrari to catch them and SV is too good a drive to let it slip barring some failures. imo FA deserves the title this year and he is shown to be best best driver, more consistent than hamilton


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,922 ✭✭✭✭ Buttonftw


    frostie500 wrote: »
    The hierarchy of the F1 drivers is pretty clear to be honest.
    1. There is the elite "tier one" drivers (Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel)
    2. "Tier two" has the likes of Button, Raikkonen (just because he hasnt refound his old single lap quali speed yet), Rosberg, Webber
    3. Then the young drivers such as Perez, Hulkenberg, Maldonado, Grosjean etc. who have shown a lot of potential but still need to smooth out some rough edges
    4. and the rest of the field
    Based on the last 3 years Button isn't too far off the top group I would've said. Hopefully Raikkonen has a few years to show what he can do again. Webber is so far off Vettel for the last 2 years it's not even funny and a lot of the time it looks like he's doing it at ease.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 Bullseye1


    Ferrari hasn't been anywhere near the best car this year. It has been the most reliable.

    McClaren at the beginning and Red Bull now have shown the most pace but due to reliability neither have been able pull out an advantage, that is until now where it seems RB have returned to their dominance of the previous two years.

    There is no denying Vettle is an elite driver and he may very well to on to beat Schu's records. For me he has to do it with two different manufacturers. I can see him going to Ferarri in a few years when Alonso is done. It will be interesting to see if Webber will be there for much longer. He has been invaluable to Vettle the last number of races and would have finished second but for his car problems.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,410 ✭✭✭✭ vectra


    frostie500 wrote: »

    I dont get it how so many fans cant, or more likely wont, see that there is very little to seperate the likes of Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel. And as far as Im concerned if you put any of those into the red bull for the last three years they would have won a couple of titles. No doubt in my mind about that. When you have elite drivers in a great car they will win races.

    In my view if Kimi had been in that red bull he would have won as well. That should make him top tier.
    frostie500 wrote: »
    Its when they're in a poor car that we see their true ability shine. Look at Vettel at Monza in 08, Hamilton in 09 and Alonso in the renault in 08 and this years Ferrari.

    Again I think Kimi should be in this list as he was driving a wheelbarrow in 2009 (f60)

    That red bull is just a flying machine.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭ Myrddin


    vectra wrote: »
    In my view if Kimi had been in that red bull he would have won as well. That should make him top tier.



    Again I think Kimi should be in this list as he was driving a wheelbarrow in 2009 (f60)

    That red bull is just a flying machine.

    Agreed, I think Kimi has that 'something special', he's able to outdrive a car like the other top tier drivers, & if he gets a sniff of a win, he'll go balls out for it. I'd put him in the top five easily


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,443 ✭✭✭ frostie500


    vectra wrote: »
    In my view if Kimi had been in that red bull he would have won as well. That should make him top tier.

    Again I think Kimi should be in this list as he was driving a wheelbarrow in 2009 (f60)

    That red bull is just a flying machine.

    No doubt if Kimi was racing then he would have been still considered a top tier driver. Like I said in my post though until he can get the last couple of tenths back in qualifying I'd class him as being a little behind the Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton trio. I'd say next year he'll have that qualifying pace again and will be in my top tier because his race craft has been superb this year so far.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,922 ✭✭✭✭ Buttonftw


    frostie500 wrote: »
    No doubt if Kimi was racing then he would have been still considered a top tier driver. Like I said in my post though until he can get the last couple of tenths back in qualifying I'd class him as being a little behind the Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton trio. I'd say next year he'll have that qualifying pace again and will be in my top tier because his race craft has been superb this year so far.

    I get the impression the Lotus doesn't have much performance waiting to come out. Looking at both Kimi and Grosjean there isn't the kind of one or two lap performance improvement that other teams have.
    As for his racecraft he's shown his class a few times and but for many poor strategy calls from the team he'd easily have another 30 points.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,146 StephenHendry


    Buttonftw wrote: »
    Based on the last 3 years Button isn't too far off the top group I would've said. Hopefully Raikkonen has a few years to show what he can do again. Webber is so far off Vettel for the last 2 years it's not even funny and a lot of the time it looks like he's doing it at ease.
    yep, JB outperformed lewis in 11, i think jenson struggles more in quali alot more which affects his race results which could be very important next year assuming it takes perez plenty of time to settle in. Like you say,jenson is just below the top three of SV, LH and FA


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,922 ✭✭✭✭ Buttonftw


    yep, JB outperformed lewis in 11, i think jenson struggles more in quali alot more which affects his race results which could be very important next year assuming it takes perez plenty of time to settle in. Like you say,jenson is just below the top three of SV, LH and FA

    In 55 races total Hamilton has 7 points more than Button. So far Button has retired 7 times that were either mechanical or he was crashed into, for Hamilton I think it was 5 times the last time I counted with some debatable. Over 3 seasons Button has been very, very close to Hamilton.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,323 Max_Charger


    Buttonftw wrote: »
    In 55 races total Hamilton has 7 points more than Button. So far Button has retired 7 times that were either mechanical or he was crashed into, for Hamilton I think it was 5 times the last time I counted with some debatable. Over 3 seasons Button has been very, very close to Hamilton.

    That's pretty surprising, I would of thought it would of been a lot more then 7 points.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,527 ✭✭✭ Jordan 199


    Buttonftw wrote: »
    In 55 races total Hamilton has 7 points more than Button. So far Button has retired 7 times that were either mechanical or he was crashed into, for Hamilton I think it was 5 times the last time I counted with some debatable. Over 3 seasons Button has been very, very close to Hamilton.

    Button has had 6 retirements, Hamilton has had 8 retirements.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,174 I Kill You Scum!


    That's pretty surprising, I would of thought it would of been a lot more then 7 points.
    Everyone thinks of Hamilton as being better than Button but over the last few years his head has been all over the place and it affects his races.

    On their best days Button is not as good has Hamilton but the key point is that he has less bad days and less brainfarts on track. So in terms of points brought home they have been almost neck and neck, 7 points different in 55 races is nothing.

    You look at someone like Alonso and he just shows up without any baggage and consistently drives at his best. If Hamilton can get his head together like that he could be one of the all time greats but I don't see it happening.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,922 ✭✭✭✭ Buttonftw


    Jordan 191 wrote: »
    Button has had 6 retirements, Hamilton has had 8 retirements.

    I'm counting Bahrain this year as a retirement. :pac: Hamilton's had more retirements but you'd be hard-pushed to find any of Button's that were his fault at all, some of Hamilton's were.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,527 ✭✭✭ Jordan 199


    Buttonftw wrote: »
    I'm counting Bahrain this year as a retirement. :pac: Hamilton's had more retirements but you'd be hard-pushed to find any of Button's that were his fault at all, some of Hamilton's were.

    Fine. Well I'll count Hamilton's race at Valencia this year a retirement, so that makes it 7-9 ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,922 ✭✭✭✭ Buttonftw


    Jordan 191 wrote: »
    Fine. Well I'll count Hamilton's race at Valencia this year a retirement, so that makes it 7-9 ;)

    Sure but my point is that none of Button's retirements have been his fault, there's a case to be made for the crash with Vettel in Spa though. Hamilton on the other hand has had a few retirements that were his fault, the car has let him down less often than it has for Jenson.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,527 ✭✭✭ Jordan 199


    Buttonftw wrote: »
    Sure but my point is that none of Button's retirements have been his fault, there's a case to be made for the crash with Vettel in Spa though. Hamilton on the other hand has had a few retirements that were his fault, the car has let him down less often than it has for Jenson.

    I had a look at what caused Hamilton's and Button's retirements at McLaren:

    2010:

    Hamilton: Hungary: gearbox. Monza: collision. Singapore: collision.

    Button: Monaco: overheating. Belgium: collision.

    2011:


    Hamilton: Canada: collision. Belgium: collision. Brazil: gearbox.

    Button: Britain: Wheel. Germany: Hydraulics.

    2012:

    Hamilton: Germany: puncture damage. Belgium: collision. Singapore: gearbox.

    Button: Italy: fuel pressure. Korea: collision.


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