Bad Diesel from <SNIP>

waverock11

My wife went into <SNIP> last thursday 18th October and filled up with €104 of diesel. Straight away when she drove out the car started driving funny. It was kind of like the engine wasnt firing properly, driving in a stop start motion. Anyway she got to the M50 and eventually pulled over to the hard shoulder. I had it towed to the garage and told them it was fine before it was filled. They drained the fuel tank fully. They said it was not diesel, it had very little smell from it and wasnt as oily as diesel. (no it wasnt petrol) Anyway I am keeping this liquid in clean barrels and waiting for <SNIP> to refund me for the diesel and the cost to drain the car and put in new filters. Suffice to say they are trying to do nothing. I am amazed a major company is happy to treat customers like this. Has any one else had had problems with <SNIP> fuel?

drunkmonkey

I think Sabb Ireland billed them for some new engines because of their fuel being bad. Do a bit of googling they've been at it for years.

seanmacc

The whole thing with <SNIP> fuel is that they don't have one single supplier. They generally buy from whoever is cheapest to get the fuel from in a particular region and therefore can't stand by their product the same way Topaz, Apple Green, Maxol, Texaco and Shell can.

If they had any sense they'd pay up without question and hope this sort of story doesn't get out and give that supplier the boot.

Paddysnapper

I'd try a quick phone call to Customs & Excise I would think this could well come under their remit!.... I hope your wife has kept the receipt!

waverock11

I have the receipt, they should have cctv footage also to verify things. I am giving it to a solicitor today. They asked me to go the the store to fill out a complaint for. When I got to the store they didnt have any complaint forms (convenient for them). Their customer service just say things like "no one else has reported a problem" or "call into the store again so we can investigate" I have the impression they are just trying to kick to touch. I have the address of their legal department now and hopefully the solicitor can sort it. The thing is I fill up two jeeps with them every week at €100 each. Thats €10,000 per anuum, we also do our food shopping there. Presumably they couldnt care less..

waverock11

It was the garage I towed it to, not <SNIP>. The mechanic put it in clean plastic drums and gave me a sample. He changed the filter and put proper diesel in and it seems to run fine now. <SNIP> needs to stand over the product they sell, if there is a problem, check it out and if liable admit it and put it right. Anyway I will see what happens and give an update when I get a resolution so that anyone else who is affected know what course to pursue. In the meantime I wont be buying from them.

wmpdd3

If they have no 'fuel investigation' forms in that petrol station, that means they have already failed an internal audit requirement.

They should also have a sample kit in the station.

If they failed this, what else have they failed.

It may have more to do with a residue in one of the tanks rather than the fuel supplier.

This is why a sample of the fuel from your tank is so important. If you have to submit a sample, make sure you only give 1/4 of your sample.

Also photocopy your receipt as it may fade as its a thermal print.

I'm not sure if you can go to the SCC for the €104 you spent on the diesel, if not a solicitors letter asking for a refund of the costs using their deisel has caused you.

waverock11

Thanks for the advice wmpdd3. I rang customs and excise and they are going to dip <SNIP> fuel tanks also. I am sending the solicitor the copy of receipt and all the details. Hopefully a solicitors letter gets them to make the refund.

drunkmonkey

You probably shouldn't have tipped them off the tanks are going to be dipped. No need to tell the internet until after it happens.

uck51js9zml2yt

if you're looking for copies of the video, dont leave it too long as they may overwrite it

Guy:Incognito

seanmacc wrote: »

If they had any sense they'd pay up without question and hope this sort of story doesn't get out and give that supplier the boot.

How big are their underground tanks? Thousands of litres? If theres something wrong with the fuel, every single car that gets diesel from there will need a few hundred euro of work done. Plus the cost of the fuel.

It's hard to see how one car could get a tank of bad diesel and not all the others. So if they don't think they are at fault, it would be stupid to just pay out.

seanmacc

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

How big are their underground tanks? Thousands of litres? If theres something wrong with the fuel, every single car that gets diesel from there will need a few hundred euro of work done. Plus the cost of the fuel.

It's hard to see how one car could get a tank of bad diesel and not all the others. So if they don't think they are at fault, it would be stupid to just pay out.

Once stories like these get out it can damage business very badly if even for a short period of time. Where the management of the petrol station failed was to make the right noises to address the customer complaint. There could of been several customers with problems but didn't notice or complain. Every car will react differently to dodgy fuel, some won't react at all. If the cost of the tank of fuel and the cost of draining the tank will appease the one customer with an issue it could save potential legal and admin costs and loss of sales if the issue escalates and ends up on Joe Duffy.

wmpdd3

I agree, why not just take all the customers details and re-pay the cost to the customer.

They money is there, the cost is just added to the price of the petrol. If bad fuel is supplied the cost is retrieved from the supplier. If the tanks are found not to be maintained properly, the cost is taken back from the maintainance company.

AFAIK, customs will only check the paper work and and dip the tank for washed fuel. If that's not the issue your back to stage one.

Also, security cameras use hard drives to back up pics, no idea why pics would be needed though.

RoboRat

Once stories like these get out it can damage business very badly if even for a short period of time. Where the management of the petrol station failed was to make the right noises to address the customer complaint. There could of been several customers with problems but didn't notice or complain. Every car will react differently to dodgy fuel, some won't react at all. If the cost of the tank of fuel and the cost of draining the tank will appease the one customer with an issue it could save potential legal and admin costs and loss of sales if the issue escalates and ends up on Joe Duffy.

What would happen if it got out that <SNIP> are refunding customers who fill their cars without questioning them because they claim they got bad diesel? All you need to do is look at what happens when <SNIP> make a mistake with pricing and it goes up on the BA forum, when they cancel orders people are threatening the SCC and the likes. They have protocol in place and they have to stick to that otherwise someone will end up in hot water.

waverock11

I am meeting with customs and excise today and they are going to take the sample and examine it. the mechanic I went to didnt say it was neccessarily "washed" diesel. He said its not diesel or is very contaminated diesel, has very little odour and is not oily like diesel. Once the test is run we will know what it is..

Menas

waverock11 wrote: »

I am meeting with customs and excise today and they are going to take the sample and examine it. the mechanic I went to didnt say it was neccessarily "washed" diesel. He said its not diesel or is very contaminated diesel, has very little odour and is not oily like diesel. Once the test is run we will know what it is..

Fair play to you. <SNIP> should have gone on alert when you reported this incident to them and worked with you to either prove that it is not their fault or to compensate you.
If you got a dodgy tank load of diesel then surely other customers would have been reporting the same issue within a short time forcing them to close down any pumps connected to that batch.

sandin

Here's a different scenario. Your tank is almost empty. It has sediment at the bottom from previous bad fuel. As you are going into the station, it I'd on reserves and sediment is starting to get into the engine.
You fill up, sediment moves about, more sediment gets into engine, engine stops.

Usually bad fuel reports end up as years of fuel that just one day causes problems. -

Not commenting specifically about this case, but before defaming a retailer, I would want to be 110% certain my facts are right. So maybe it would be worth removing the stations name from the thread until you are 100% certain of all facts.

Le_Dieux

sandin wrote: »

Here's a different scenario. Your tank is almost empty. It has sediment at the bottom from previous bad fuel. As you are going into the station, it I'd on reserves and sediment is starting to get into the engine.
You fill up, sediment moves about, more sediment gets into engine, engine stops.

Usually bad fuel reports end up as years of fuel that just one day causes problems. -

Not commenting specifically about this case, but before defaming a retailer, I would want to be 110% certain my facts are right. So maybe it would be worth removing the stations name from the thread until you are 100% certain of all facts.

Here's another scenario: What if the said tank and what's inside IS the problem, by advertising the service station is preventing others from having problems also.

I don't actually agree with Your mode of thinking often Sandin, but You do raise a very valid point here. My scenario, just highlights what I think for ALL parties should mean sorting this problem out ASAP. This issue started 9 days ago, and cannot be of any benefit to any parties here. We are now in a BH weekend, so will be 12 days ongoing before we have a normal business day, which cannot be of benefit to anyone at all.

waverock11

There was no sediment just liquid pumped from the tank. I use <SNIP> exclusively for fuel as I put the points on my wifes <SNIP>. So I dont see how other "bad" fuel would be in tank. The car worked perfectly before being filled. Upon driving out of the service station it started having problems. No one is being defamed. <SNIP> sold me dodgy diesel and so far havent refunded it. I would like a refund for the diesel and cost of having tank pumped. I run a small business and if a problem was brought to my attention by a customer I would try and sort it out. Remember they have the cctv footage, also have my <SNIP> account so know what I spend on fuel anualy with them. Their manager actualy said to me yesterday that because "they are not aware of it happening to anyone else" they have not done anything up to now. Using that logic they would never be at fault unless more than one person is affected. Unfortunately for <SNIP> that reasoning has no basis in law.

Procrastastudy

waverock11 wrote: »

No one is being defamed. <SNIP> sold me dodgy diesel and so far haven't refunded it.
***
Unfortunately for <SNIP> that reasoning has no basis in law.

I do admire a man that is willing to bet his house on this kind of thing.

You have potentially defamed <SNIP>. Luckily the PR generated by taking you for a few grand would be so bad that its very unlikely they would. Even if they were to run an action it's likely the legal costs could force you to settle.

I've heard of cases involving something as minor as "Funds not available" on returned cheques result in a defamation case. The fact is you don't know for certain what the story is. You have a very good idea - you might even be correct - you might even over come the bar of preponderance of the evidence and successfully defend a defamation case. But to state you're 100% sure you've not defamed them is a little naive.

dudara

waverock11 wrote: »

No one is being defamed. <SNIP> sold me dodgy diesel

OP - This is a contradictory statement. Right now you are stating that they sold you dodgy diesel, but it is yet to be proved. That is a dangerous position. Therefore I have taken action to remove the name of the retailer in question.

@Procrastastudy - you're beginning to border on legal advice here.

waiting for refund

Its quite easy to see from Google who this company is by the way. A google link of who I thought it was brought me straight to this page.

keithclancy

waverock11 wrote: »

There was no sediment just liquid pumped from the tank. I use <SNIP> exclusively for fuel as I put the points on my wifes <SNIP>. So I dont see how other "bad" fuel would be in tank. The car worked perfectly before being filled. Upon driving out of the service station it started having problems. No one is being defamed. <SNIP> sold me dodgy diesel and so far havent refunded it. I would like a refund for the diesel and cost of having tank pumped. I run a small business and if a problem was brought to my attention by a customer I would try and sort it out. Remember they have the cctv footage, also have my <SNIP> account so know what I spend on fuel anualy with them. Their manager actualy said to me yesterday that because "they are not aware of it happening to anyone else" they have not done anything up to now. Using that logic they would never be at fault unless more than one person is affected. Unfortunately for <SNIP> that reasoning has no basis in law.

Bit weird alright, they might get 20,000 liters in a delivery, I'm sure it would affect alot more people.

You sure she didnt fill up with Adblue or something ?

Le_Dieux

keithclancy wrote: »

Bit weird alright, they might get 20,000 liters in a delivery, I'm sure it would affect alot more people.

You sure she didnt fill up with Adblue or something ?

Or putting petrol into a diesel engine? It happened to my Wife, so I know the symptoms.

thenightrider

Diesel deteriorates over time so it turns to sludge at the bottom of the tank. When your car get's to low on fuel you car will suck this up and cause the trouble that you had and when it is drained it will not look like pure Diesel as it will have the sludge mixed in with it. If the fuel was bad there would be a lot more people complaining.

sandin

waverock11 wrote: »

There was no sediment just liquid pumped from the tank. I use <SNIP> exclusively for fuel as I put the points on my wifes <SNIP>. So I dont see how other "bad" fuel would be in tank. The car worked perfectly before being filled. Upon driving out of the service station it started having problems. No one is being defamed. <SNIP> sold me dodgy diesel and so far havent refunded it. I would like a refund for the diesel and cost of having tank pumped. I run a small business and if a problem was brought to my attention by a customer I would try and sort it out. Remember they have the cctv footage, also have my <SNIP> account so know what I spend on fuel anualy with them. Their manager actualy said to me yesterday that because "they are not aware of it happening to anyone else" they have not done anything up to now. Using that logic they would never be at fault unless more than one person is affected. Unfortunately for <SNIP> that reasoning has no basis in law.

What are the chances that just the 60 litres of fuel you bought was dodgy and the other 19940 litres that their tank holds was perfect?

I'd suggest you read up on retail fuels. In Ireland, the vast majority come from Whitegate refinery. Every station effectively sells the exact same fuel except some put a tiny bit of additive into theirs as its unloaded into their giant port tanks.

As for the comment someone made saying that supermarkets get theirs from the cheapest source possible - total rubbish. They work on multi year supply contracts with a single supplier. - Google it if you are in any doubt.


There are so many reasons that a car can break own. There are so many reasons fuel may SEEM the issue - but without professional written reports that show 100% the source of the problem you CANNOT defame a business or you risk ending up losing a hell of a lot more that the cost of a car repair.

You say you run a small business - would you like your business to be ruined because someone thought a product you sold caused a major problem, but they didn't have actual documented proof?

waverock11

No it wasnt adblue or petrol. I have the receipt. It had no sludge in it. Its clear liquid. I have it in a clear plastic bottle the mechanice gave me. My wife bought me some socks from this smae company (who must remain unnamed!) Here is what it says on the back of the packet : " We are happy to refund or replace any **insert retailers name**product which falls below the high standard you expect. Just ask any member of staff. This does not affect your statutory rights" It does NOT say "unless someone else or multiple other people has a problem with the quality of these socks we wont accept liability" Anyway as they say on the socks "it doesnt affect my statutory rights" to recieve proper diesel when my wife fills her tank in their service station instead of something that needs to be pumped out...Funnily enough I googled this in the UK yesterday to see if it happens with this company. It seems it happens a lot with them over there.

waverock11

Sandin, if one of my clients had a problem with something I did or provided to them they would call me and I would set it right rather than run for cover and try and pass the buck. When I pay €104 for diesel that has to be pumped out, well I think any company with integrity would refund the money after checking reciept, cctv footage etc. They can take up their problems with their supplier later. As for documented proof I asked two qualified mechanics who are trained in Nissan to check it. They are professionals.

waverock11

Procrastastudy, the company that sold the bad diesel have many people working in customer service, many managers at all levels, a head office staffed by suitably qualified people, support and backup at every level, loyal product suppliers etc but they just cant bring them selves to give back the €104 they wrongfully charged for bad diesel that had to be pumped out. Even though I spent over €20,000 with them on fuel and groceries over the year. They have the staff, the resources and the ability to sort this. A cursory glance of the situation in the UK shows its not unheard of for someone to get bad diesel from them. Maybe, just maybe they would rather not admit liability rather than admit that it was them. If thats why they are dragging this out I would say its better to stand over your product and set it right if it falls below the standard expected. Talk of defamation is often a way of not accepting liability.

Guy:Incognito

waverock11 wrote: »

It does NOT say "unless someone else or multiple other people has a problem with the quality of these socks we wont accept liability".

Thats not a comparible situation though. A pair of socks in a batch could be damaged or made wrong. A tiny amount of petrol in a huge tank thats all mixed together and sloshing around couldnt be independantly contaminated (and the still all come out together in a 60 lump). Do you not think it would be impossble for you alone to get bad diesel?


As for the refund and admitting liabliliy, whether its €1.04, €104 or €10400, why should they admit liabilty if they dont believe they are at fault?

waverock11

Guy incognito, ever got a bad pint in a pub, a bad fountain drink in a fast food outlet? It can happen and does. usually its not a big deal. Same with diesel. I will wait for the analysis to see what it was. (if it was pure diesel it would have fired in the cylinders properly)

sandin

waverock11 wrote: »

As for documented proof I asked two qualified mechanics who are trained in Nissan to check it. They are professionals.

sorry, but no court will take the word of 2 qualified mechanics with regard to a the quality of a refined oil. They have no qualification in the area whatsoever. Nissan neither drill for oil or refine it - so they are no good either. NSAI are the guys you need to call.

as for refund - would you rely on a customer's word that 0.25% of a mixed product was faulty and the other 99.75% was fine? (The fuel storage in that station is 3 x 40,000 litre tanks according to planning docs). Also Statoil supplies diesel to a large supermarket chain in Ireland.


Your facts are pointing to a car that was running almost on empty though this does depend on the car tank itself, but the majority of Nissan tanks are 65 litres and your "fill" was just over 65 litres, so this suggest the car was running on the dregs of the tank immediate prior to fuelling - surely this COULD be a factor especially when all the diesel comes from one refinery and the tanker that delivered it would hold up to 100,000 litres and delievered the EXACT same product to other stations in the area and not one other person seems to have had a problem??? - Would that alone not make you check other avenues just to be sure??

Guy:Incognito

waverock11 wrote: »

Guy incognito, ever got a bad pint in a pub, a bad fountain drink in a fast food outlet? It can happen and does. usually its not a big deal. Same with diesel. I will wait for the analysis to see what it was. (if it was pure diesel it would have fired in the cylinders properly)

Both of those would be down to a problem with the preparation process. Neither soft drinks nor beer are delivered to where you buy them fully prepared and in massive tanks. Gasses etc are added to syrup to make and then deliver you your drink. Fuel comes as is and is pumped straight from a big tank to your car, nothing added during each individual delivery to make it what your car uses.

L1011

sandin wrote: »

, but the majority of tanks are 65 litres

This is absolutely and utterly not the case.

sandin

MYOB wrote: »

This is absolutely and utterly not the case.

sorry - majority of NISSAN tanks are 65l unless its a small Nissan and they are 46l.

The only one higher is the Murano at 70l, but as its petrol only, this can be discounted.

Therefore by deduction the vehicle in question is either a Quashquai or an X-Trail.

btw - info for the OP. If you have a diesel Quashqai (apples to other new diesel cars too) and use it just for city driving, you need to take it out for a long run every now and then to clean the filters. Running it near empty makes this issue worse. - Possibly its Nissan themselves you need to start looking at!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/2011/10/diesel_particulate_filters.html

waverock11

Guys, its a pathfinder. The tank holds 80 litres. There was about 14 litres before it was filled up. I put about a €100 fill in it every week. so it gets a log run nearly every day.I cant imagine going to a pub getting a crappy pint and having the barman tell me I could be defaming him when I mention it, being told he doesnt make the stuff, being told he will check with his supplier, etc etc. For heavens sake would you not just pull another pint and aoplogise. the customer has paid for a pint in good faith. I think we are going up hill and down dale to find a reason why the most logical reason is not the real reason for the problem. Lets wait and see what the customs and excise analysis finds. If they say " that Diesel is ok, nothing wrong with it" then fair enough.

waverock11

Sandin and Guy Incognito, can you tell me hand on heart that you are not playing devils advocate? If you are both serious then I think you would be great senior councils in the law library..

sandin

waverock11 wrote: »

Sandin and Guy Incognito, can you tell me hand on heart that you are not playing devils advocate? If you are both serious then I think you would be great senior councils in the law library..

It was my first choice career but other things got in the way - still sort of wish I followed that path!
Yes, playing devils advocate, always look for the opposing side of the case. If there's no opposing case, then you can go 100% certain you're right. In this case there are other possibilities and you need to know that before making an accusation against a large or any.company.

I still reckon its an unfortunate consequence. It may even be a consequence of the station getting a delivery just before you filled up and sediment got swirled around. - this may explain why others were nit affected.

tipptom

How do we know others are not affected,outlet is not going to shout about it if there was more cars affected,more like ride it out and hope there is no troublesome tenacious ones who follow it up.

sandin

tipptom wrote: »

How do we know others are not affected,outlet is not going to shout about it if there was more cars affected,more like ride it out and hope there is no troublesome tenacious ones who follow it up.

Tank 40,000 litres, average fill = 30 litres, total number using that tank with that batch = about 1100 motorists.

1100 motorists with problem engines within a 2 day period in same area? - I'd reckon we'd have heard about it by now!!

It did actually happen in the UK once - a lot of water had got into a tank whilst filling and it made BBC news that day.

Guy:Incognito

waverock11 wrote: »

cant imagine going to a pub getting a crappy pint and having the barman tell me I could be defaming him when I mention it, being told he doesnt make the stuff, being told he will check with his supplier, etc etc. For heavens sake would you not just pull another pint and aoplogise. the customer has paid for a pint in good faith. I.

Your proving my point here. There isn't a little bubble of bad beer floating in the keg and you get all of it in one pint meaning the rest is grand. If the whole keg is bad it doesn't matter how many more pints he pulls, they'll all be bad. Just like the petrol. However, if its an issue with too much gas or syrup and the pint is bad, you can pull another one. With the petrol tank, there isn't the scope for a "bad pint".

tipptom

sandin wrote: »

Tank 40,000 litres, average fill = 30 litres, total number using that tank with that batch = about 1100 motorists.

1100 motorists with problem engines within a 2 day period in same area? - I'd reckon we'd have heard about it by now!!

It did actually happen in the UK once - a lot of water had got into a tank whilst filling and it made BBC news that day.

MM yea,but could have been a slight mess up with additives,water etc,most of the cars worked their way through it,some didnt,retailer vacumed it out after the first initial complaints.We dont have the same complaint culture as the UK.

emo72

i filled up a major supermarket forecourt on sunday and my diesel 1.8 mondeo has been terrible too. mechanic is looking at it tomorrow. if the OP can pm me his details of who he bought it off that would be great. wont name them in case its unrelated.

waverock11

Tipptom, thats the type of thing I was thinking of. Some people think there is a magic forcefield that protects this retailer from selling anything less than perfect diesel! Between additives, conditions of fuel lines, fuel tanker, fuel tank, cleaning etc there is room for something to go wrong. When they add chlorine to a swimming pool its a tiny amount addded. But if you are right next to the spot where the attendant pours in the chlorine you could get a mouthful of water with a higher concentration.

jackofalltrades

sandin wrote: »

btw - info for the OP. If you have a diesel Quashqai (apples to other new diesel cars too) and use it just for city driving, you need to take it out for a long run every now and then to clean the filters. Running it near empty makes this issue worse. - Possibly its Nissan themselves you need to start looking at!!

Can you explain this for me please?

tipptom

waverock11 wrote: »

Tipptom, thats the type of thing I was thinking of. Some people think there is a magic forcefield that protects this retailer from selling anything less than perfect diesel! Between additives, conditions of fuel lines, fuel tanker, fuel tank, cleaning etc there is room for something to go wrong. When they add chlorine to a swimming pool its a tiny amount addded. But if you are right next to the spot where the attendant pours in the chlorine you could get a mouthful of water with a higher concentration.

I think every thing comes down to the test on the fuel that came out of your car and even then they can say this was contaminated by your tank,mechanic,you etc etc and that this is your own test,its a tough one,but fair play to you for sticking with it.

emo72

OP has contacted me. we bought from the same supermarket, curious to see if its the same branch. there could be something in this. my mechanic has recommended changing the fuel filter.

wmpdd3

emo72 wrote: »

OP has contacted me. we bought from the same supermarket, curious to see if its the same branch. there could be something in this. my mechanic has recommended changing the fuel filter.

See if it was the same pump, I think its on the receipt. That may narrow it down to one tank out of 3. Was it the same day?

waverock11

It was same company, different location. I would mention to the mechanic that you are concerned with the diesel that was put in it. If he thinks it is the problem I would have it pumped out and keep samples to send to customs and excise who will analyse it. I had mine pumped out and a new fuel filter fitted.

Podge72

Filled my car with diesel from a station in Cork last Friday, it packed up 10mins later, got it recovered to local main dealer, they have drain the tank and what came out could only be described as dish water.Estimate of repairs is in the region of 4k, new pump and injector. Have employed a motor assessor to sample diesel and send for testing, he says its the worst diesel he's ever seen. Also contacted solictor who tells me she has 4 other clients with similar cases from same service station, one who filled up around same time on Friday. There was an oil truck filling there tanks at the time which could mean dirt or sludge was drawn up.
I informed my insurance company who also sent out there assessor, not sure where that will lead but worth a try as legal action will be slow.
This problem seem to be rampant at the moment, with the service stations giving the standard answer of "we get our fuel in the same place as everyone else" But who regulates the state of there tanks?

sandin

Podge72 wrote: »

This problem seem to be rampant at the moment, with the service stations giving the standard answer of "we get our fuel in the same place as everyone else" But who regulates the state of there tanks?

NSAI do the tank testing, pump testing & measurement testing www.nsai.ie

Also, whilst some stations do put in additives, almost all fuel comes from the same refineries, hence its usually a local issue when there's bad fuel, such as sediment and a near empty undergound tank or a recent delivery of fuel that stirs up sediment but also sediment in cars can suddenly cause problems having been built up over a period.

A small amount of sediment causes no probelms but a small amount every couple of weeks eventually causes problems.