N-plates?

Zubeneschamali

So newly qualified drivers are to display N plates for two years, they are to be subject to the lowest drink-drive limit, and will be off the road at 6 points instead of 12.

Anyone think this is a useful measure?

Since the existing L plate laws are widely ignored and barely enforced, I think this is just more "do something because we're an agency and have to be seen to be doing something" wasted effort. It's OK in theory, but a waste of effort in practice.

Selfishly, I also don't like the idea of having N plates stuck on any car my kids are insured on for the next 12 years.

Atlantic Dawn

I think when you pass your test you should have full rights as every other motorist. A driver needs no additional testing after they pass their test so putting a N plate on doesn't make sense.

Mycroft H

If it can be implemented right it's a good idea. I'd go so far as a graduate driver system, much like they do in Australia. Practically zero blood alcohol limit and limiting driver hours.

Bit of a read of how they do it elsewhere in the world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11376809

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11379914

BroLo

Any idea when these are coming into effect? Personally I don't agree with this. It seems stupid, "You passed your test, well done. Now you will still be subject to prejudice and abuse from (some) other drivers for the next two years and if you don't have these ridiculous N-plates up we will probably give you points".

Shield

From a policing point of view, I can see most Gardaí just issuing advice and guidance. I like the idea of the low alcohol rule, but the displaying of the N plates is similar to the R plates up here. For most genuine cases if they have all relevant bits displayed, valid full driving licence, etc, and they are polite and respectful when stopped and questioned, they'll be let on their way without any further action.

Bpmull

I passed my test in July and I don't agree with this n plate system. The whole point of the driving test is that if you pass you are a safe and competent driver. I passed first time as an 18 year old male in Kilkenny which has the lowest pass rate 35 percent. But I worked really hard for my test and got 18 lessons. The testers in general are hard enough any slips at all and they will mark you. If they are anyway concerned by your driving they will fail you. I think the current systm is fair. If you really practice driving you will pass the test you dont need any talent its purely based on practice. So I certainly don't agree with the n plate system and hopefully I wont be effected I assume it's only newly qualified drivers who pass after the launch date.

Mycroft H

Bpmull wrote: »

I passed my test in July and I don't agree with this n plate system. The whole point of the driving test is that if you pass you are a safe and competent driver. I passed first time as an 18 year old male in Kilkenny which has the lowest pass rate 35 percent. But I worked really hard for my test and got 18 lessons. The testers in general are hard enough any slips at all and they will mark you. If they are anyway concerned by your driving they will fail you. I think the current systm is fair. If you really practice driving you will pass the test you dont need any talent its purely based on practice. So I certainly don't agree with the n plate system and hopefully I wont be effected I assume it's only newly qualified drivers who pass after the launch date.

Test really isn't much representative of your day to day driving skills is it? Motorways? Newly graduated drivers have never been on them, nor have never been thought how to drive on them practically.


I'd say it won't be applied retrospectively either.

oregano

It's a super idea. I sell cars to first time owners, (test just passed, of all ages) and all are lacking in cop on when they take that car out on test drive etc.

As a driver I am not prejudiced against l drivers, in fact I give them my patience when I see them on the road. Due to this new plan i will be able to discern when someone in front of me has passed the test but has not yet the experience to be 100% in charge of a car should the unexpected occur.

As for whinging about n stickers on your car because your kids are going to learn consecutively, surely as a parent you want other road users to show your kids some leeway on the roads? It's only a bleedin sticker!!!

Victor

Then either take down the N-plate when you are using the car or get them to drive their own car.

mitosis

N plates = good idea in my opinion. Like an easing in period, a probation, if you will. Passing a test only illustrates ability in coping for 40 minutes under low speed conditions (generally). Like the NCT, it only certifies the driver was safe on one day.

Bpmull

oregano wrote: »

It's a super idea. I sell cars to first time owners, (test just passed, of all ages) and all are lacking in cop on when they take that car out on test drive etc.

Just because you have sold a few cars to newly qualified drivers and they were lacking the cop as you put it does not mean every young newly qualified driver is the same you can't just generalise your statement. As for experience I find that i seem to be in the minority of people who can use roundabouts proberly and drive on the motorways correctly. I drive 600km per week half on motorways and have no difficulty with my lack of experience. But then I was thought how to drive correctly by 2 parent who are both driving 25 years and a very good driving instructor. I am not the only one most newly qualified drivers are good drivers. Also did you ever think maybe they just weren't used to your car and were maybe nervous the fact they didnt own the car.

galwayjohn89

Were the R plates in NI not a test for the whole of UK but they didn't proceed with it or is that just a myth.

Bpmull

BX 19 wrote: »

Test really isn't much representative of your day to day driving skills is it? Motorways? Newly graduated drivers have never been on them, nor have never been thought how to drive on them practically.


I'd say it won't be applied retrospectively either.

I do agree with you there should be some motorway test. My dad thought me how to drive on the motorway correctly and as I am in college I drive 400 km on motorway a week you do get used to it once your thought how to use it correctly.

kirving

You've either passed the test or you haven't, your reaction time is either inpaired to a certain extent by drink or it's not, and so on.

If someone could show me scientific evidence that my reaction time is dependant in how many years I've been.driving, fair enough.

Imposing random probation periods on things which have no corralation with time is wrong, and is just done to make the RSA look like they're doing something.

L1011

Using N is being different for difference's sake. Should use R the same as NI.

Also, "2 years" is a crude instrument to use, Noel Brett was comparing it to a pilot logging hours, but its incomparable. In my first two years after getting my licence I probably drove 80,000km. My mother would have done about 6,000.

Bigcheeze

Don't see a problem with the idea but I think a much better idea would be to introduce a mandatory theory test every 10 ten years when it comes to renew your driving license.

Roads, signage, rules are changing all the time so "experienced" drivers should have to demonstrate they are up to date with the rules of the road.

A lot of the worst driving you see from younger people is related to speed, agression and an attitude of invincibility but older people are often very bad on roundabouts and motorways which didn't exist when they were learning to drive.

Zubeneschamali

oregano wrote: »

As for whinging about n stickers on your car because your kids are going to learn consecutively, surely as a parent you want other road users to show your kids some leeway on the roads? It's only a bleedin sticker!!!

Firstly, L plates do not mean learners get extra consideration, they mean learners get targeted hostility from other drivers. I've been treated like sh!te on the road myself when driving a car with L-plates up, hostility I don't normally get.

Secondly, even if it worked they way you think for my kids, I don't want the stickers up for the next 12 years while I am driving my own car.

Thirdly, if everyone who has another driver with <2 years experience insured has an N plate on permanent display, there'll be so many that it'll tell you nothing.

Bigcheeze

Bpmull wrote: »

I passed my test in July and I don't agree with this n plate system. The whole point of the driving test is that if you pass you are a safe and competent driver. I passed first time as an 18 year old male

So you've demonstrated that you're competent to drive. However, you're 18 so you're an inexperienced driver and that can only be gained with time.

Guy:Incognito

It's pointless legislation. As proved by the Traffic Corps program a couple of years ago, the Gardaí do nothing about L drivers, so adding another classification for them to ignore wont change anything.

djimi

I like the idea of restricting drivers while the gain real world experience (as opposed to, in theory, having never driven unaccompanied before the test...), and I think restricting peoples rights after they pass the test is a good way of trying to get people to respect the driving laws early on in their driving life.

djimi

Kevin Irving wrote: »

You've either passed the test or you haven't, your reaction time is either inpaired to a certain extent by drink or it's not, and so on.

If someone could show me scientific evidence that my reaction time is dependant in how many years I've been.driving, fair enough.

Imposing random probation periods on things which have no corralation with time is wrong, and is just done to make the RSA look like they're doing something.

Oh come on, are you really trying to say that as you became more experienced things like your reaction time didnt improve? Or that you didnt learn how to deal with certain situations the longer you were driving?

If nothing else imposing a probation period might teach people to resect the license that they have just recieved and in turn make them better drivers as they go on. Any driver who has racks up 6 points in their first couple of years driving probably is not fit to be on the road anyway, and imo the lower the drink driving limit the better regardless (although I feel the latter is probably a discussion for another thread!).

Zubeneschamali

Kevin Irving wrote: »

If someone could show me scientific evidence that my reaction time is dependant in how many years I've been.driving, fair enough.

The accident stats should tell you that.

The test is a very low bar, and people very clearly get a lot better with practice. Telling an inexperienced driver that they've passed the rather simple test so now they are as good as the best is clearly wrong.

So in theory, some sort of Novice status is OK with me. I'd be fine with the reduced alcohol level and the stiffer points rules, just to get across the message that no, you are not a perfect driver, you are still learning.

The N plates, however, are completely pointless.

keithclancy

Kevin Irving wrote: »

You've either passed the test or you haven't, your reaction time is either inpaired to a certain extent by drink or it's not, and so on.

If someone could show me scientific evidence that my reaction time is dependant in how many years I've been.driving, fair enough.

Imposing random probation periods on things which have no corralation with time is wrong, and is just done to make the RSA look like they're doing something.

I remember everyone saying "Sure you only need to drive like that for the hour your doing your test anyway"

More of a psychological thing, in that you'll be a lot more careful if the penalties are much higher in your probation period and after the probation period that behaviour is more likely to stick.

Works here anyway and there are definitely less clowns on the road, also people that are on their probation period wouldnt risk having one beer as they've worked so hard to get their license.

kirving

Which accident stats? Honestly, not sure what you mean.

The road death stats tell me that cars have become far safer over the past decade, and that motorways have taken people off.more dangerous roads.

I agree that the test isn't a good measure of ability. So bite the bullet and reform the test system instead of bringing in stupid 6 month rules and N plates which will achive nithing but are big headlines.

Oh wait, that costs money which we don't have...

Bearcat

2yrs too long....1 year max

keithclancy

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Which accident stats? Honestly, not sure what you mean.

The road death stats tell me that cars have become far safer over the past decade, and that motorways have taken people off.more dangerous roads.

I agree that the test isn't a good measure of ability. So bite the bullet and reform the test system instead of bringing in stupid 6 month rules and N plates which will achive nithing but are big headlines.

Oh wait, that costs money which we don't have...

I don't think the idea came out of nowhere.
And its already in place in other countries as already mentioned.

http://www.internationaltransportforum.org/jtrc/safety/YDpolicyBrief.pdf

These measures are likely to be unpopular with young drivers themselves, although an effective communications strategy may reveal substantial support among society in general.

Enforcement will only be effective if there are significant repercussions for breaking the rules of the road. Effective disincentives to inappropriate driving behaviour should involve imposing probationary periods on novice drivers where they could lose the right to drive or undergo obligatory retraining. Such countermeasures may require new legislation, but would not add important additional costs. Car insurance premiums could also be used to further encourage young drivers to avoid unsafe driving.

Zubeneschamali

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Which accident stats? Honestly, not sure what you mean.

Here's the RSA report from 2009, check table 19, Casualties, Car Drivers:

15-17: 2.2%
18-20: 9.7%
21-24: 11.4% (Average per year: 3.75%)
25-34: 22.8%
35-44: 14.6%
45-54: 9.9 (Average per year ~ 1.0)
55-64: 6.2
65+: 6.5

You'll see some intervals here have only 3 years, and others have more. Redrawing this as an average % per year of the interval, so that each age is shown, you can see that the death rate peaks in the 21-24 range at about 3.5 times what it is for my cohort up at 48, and it drops off steadily with age. This isn't even a little bit controversial, it's very well known indeed.

corktina

they can make all the Laws and Rules they want, they are all useless without zero-tolerance enforcment

awec

This post has been deleted.

pred racer

I dont see the point, how is a letter on the back going to change anyones driving style. Personally I think all these measures (mandatory number of lessons etc etc) are all bollox!

The test is, can you drive to a sufficient level to be awarded a licence, yes or no?
(the test maybe needs to be updated but thats another issue)

The extra points etc will do the job, why stick a loser sticker on the back of the car too.

The only way anything will change is enforcement! (and not speed, but getting pulled for being stupid might get the message through after a couple of go's)

Ill be making sure my eldest daughter gets her licence before this horse**** comes in, my other 2 kids are gonna have to suffer it. :rolleyes:

TheChizler

awec wrote: »

It's a good idea. Anything to cut down on moronic boy racers who think once they get a license that they're the next top rally driver is to be welcomed.

The R driver system for the most part works well in NI.

2 years is probably a bit too long.

One difference I notice is that R drivers in NI are restricted to 45mph max, even if the road has a higher limit. Perhaps something further to look at.

What this needs now is rigourous enforcement. Are there points for getting caught not showing the plate? If not, there should be. I'd go as far as to give 3 or 4 points for it. There is absolutely no excuse.

Decent young drivers have nothing to fear from this system. Potential boy [and girl] racers do.

Why do you think displaying the plate is so important?