Is It Time To End The Failed Handicap System.

PARlance

Dublin Spur wrote: »

in my club the vast majority of major honours go to members in the 10 to 20 handicap range, every year its always the same.

The low handicappers rarely get a look in and usually have to wait for a scratch cup to come along before having a chance of glory.

The problem is as I see it that 42/43/44 points usually wins the big events at my club and that would mean a 5 handicapper (like myself) would need to shoot something like -2 or -3 gross in order to compete where as a 15 handicapper only has to shoot +7 or +8.

There's one major thing here that I feel you're not taking into consideration and that is the % of golfers and their handicap range.

Swords Open Golf Club list their members and HC's
http://www.swordsgolfclub.ie/mens/club-directory-2012.1485.html

From these lists
57% of their members are 10-20 HC (inclusive)
40% are 21+ HC's
Only 3% are HC 9 or less.

(The low HC % seems very low to me, maybe it's not a true reflection on most clubs. Anyone know the splits in their own clubs? )

In a club like this, the majority of any honours should be going to the 10-20 HC's purely due to the amount of members in that category.

42/43/44 winning a comp is ok as long as it's not the same guys winning each time.
For every Mid HC'er shooting 44 there could be 9 others shooting much much lower.
Exceptions are more frequent with greater numbers.

It's the % of golfers in the mid handicap range that is causing the problem not the system itself.
If you sent 5 low hc's and 5 mid hc's out for a ten man comp, I'd safety say that the top of the leader board would be weighted towards the Low HC's as they are the guys that are more consistent.
Throw and 30 Mid HC's into this comp and the the Mid HC's would dominate the top of the leader board (and the bottom of it...)

A low handicapper in Swords should be winning the Captains prize once every 33 years based on their present list remaining constant.

GreeBo

ok fdp, average scores.
i average 15 over and you average 22 over and we are in the same category. you are never going to win anything.
that's the flaw with ignoring individual handicaps. as i said you just made the problem worse. now for each category you have you are going to have half the people in it who can't win (assuming an even distribution of averages throughout the group)
the guys off the higher handicaps are supposed to win more often.there are far more of them and they have far more room to improve. that doesn't make the system unfair that's probability and statistics. the fairness of the system comes from two guys off very different handicaps play each other in a fair game.
but i guess we can agree to disagree !

onlyfinewine

onlyfinewine wrote: »

The handicap system is mathematically pretty good, the problem is that it can be manipulated, particularly by the point one merchants. What you need to do is to discourage handicap building and I have not seen anything on this thread that would help achieve that goal. Anytime a golfer can decide not to play his best on purpose and gather an increase in handicap without any checks or balances it will inevitably lead to abuses.

My suggestion is that all point one increases be held in Limbo until the annual review by the handicap secretary. This would allow a more level playing field over time and do away with the ability to increase your handicap quickly after being cut for a good performance. It would also highlight the amount of point one increases versus the excellent scores achieved during the year.

Unfortunately it would also have the effect of reducing the amount of open singles that would be played and thus depress revenues in the short term.

Forgot to mention that the size of prizes should be reduced hugely. I for one would be happy with a medal to mark the achievement and not a holiday to a hot country to play golf for a week.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

ok fdp, average scores.
i average 15 over and you average 22 over and we are in the same category. you are never going to win anything.
that's the flaw with ignoring individual handicaps. as i said you just made the problem worse. now for each category you have you are going to have half the people in it who can't win (assuming an even distribution of averages throughout the group)
the guys off the higher handicaps are supposed to win more often.there are far more of them and they have far more room to improve. that doesn't make the system unfair that's probability and statistics. the fairness of the system comes from two guys off very different handicaps play each other in a fair game.
but i guess we can agree to disagree !

No, I would try improve the following year, you would be in the next category , I would try harder. Same as all sports (except golf). You would have to try harder to stay in your new category. You would have the real prestige of being a category a/b/ 1/2/3. This would be the driver behind the sport, there would be nobody trying to keep handicaps high (there would be no handicap), because the sport would now be about what level you are at. It would be a further iteration of the "He is a single figure player". It would be like a belt in Judo / Karate.

The handicap system is so ingrained , it seems to be just a value in an emotionless algorithm . A winner is popped out at the end. Is this the lad who played to the best of his ability or had the wrong handicap ?

I have not resolved how players at different levels would play against each other, perhaps relative improvement on a % basis over time. Give me time on that one.
I could be saying that players at far extremes can not compete, that is the reality of 95 % of sport, is it golf's unquie selling point ? How much do the golfing comunity value this ?

Again, all hypothetical- but it is clear from boards and the points made by some golfers, they are not just a few moaners, there is real questions about the sense of the system.

In the end - nothing will change, so, don't worry be happy. Just nice to understand the logic of the sport I'm trying to get to grips with, but never can fully understand.

m r c

After reading this thread from start to finish I'm inclined to think that the current system is perfect considering it deals with humans.

I got my first h/c this year 24, I had a good few .1's(7/8) then had 40 pts and was cut, another few .1's and had 38 and another wee cut. I'm off 23.1 now but I feel like a total bandit at 23 tbh BUT when it counted on captains day this year I desperately wanted to make the cut for the 2nd day I missed it by 4 strokes.
The reason I'm not a bandit is I personally cannot turn the style on and off yet but I do have the odd good day. My best in strokes in competition is 92 and my best for fun is 82. My target is to shoot 80 in a competition any day now and get a big dirty cut. The handicap system makes me want to get down to the lowest possible h/c.

I'd love to be off single digits shooting 36 pts winning nothing and watching the fellas cheat each other for a new putter etc. I want to be a good golfer not a bingo player. Keeping an artificially high h/c is cheating I'm personally not into that.

FixdePitchmark

m r c wrote: »

After reading this thread from start to finish I'm inclined to think that the current system is perfect considering it deals with humans.

I got my first h/c this year 24, I had a good few .1's(7/8) then had 40 pts and was cut, another few .1's and had 38 and another wee cut. I'm off 23.1 now but I feel like a total bandit at 23 tbh BUT when it counted on captains day this year I desperately wanted to make the cut for the 2nd day I missed it by 4 strokes.
The reason I'm not a bandit is I personally cannot turn the style on and off yet but I do have the odd good day. My best in strokes in competition is 92 and my best for fun is 82. My target is to shoot 80 in a competition any day now and get a big dirty cut. The handicap system makes me want to get down to the lowest possible h/c.

I'd love to be off single digits shooting 36 pts winning nothing and watching the fellas cheat each other for a new putter etc. I want to be a good golfer not a bingo player. Keeping an artificially high h/c is cheating I'm personally not into that.

Like it

And you did not have to read this crap thread to come up with that great bit of sense.

All I ever want to do in golf is score my best score ever.

cornerboy

onlyfinewine wrote: »

Forgot to mention that the size of prizes should be reduced hugely. I for one would be happy with a medal to mark the achievement and not a holiday to a hot country to play golf for a week.

Ah yes.....the good old classic. Once golf became a mode of fundraising for the local school or GAA club we were f**ked. And when the GAA club put up a trip to Portugal as 1st prize we were rightly f**ked.

There is nothing wrong with the Handicap system if the GUI would back the clubs in implementing it. There was a time when the handicap secretary was all powerful and if he thought you were better than the 19 handicap you were playing off.......you were cut on general play no ifs or buts. That rule still exists but the clubs are slow to implement it mainly because the GUI wont support them if they are challenged on it as several have been.

IanPoulter

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

No, I would try improve the following year, you would be in the next category , I would try harder. Same as all sports (except golf).

Probably because golf is essentialy a social sport. We don't play with people we don't like. We generally play in the same 4 ball or within the same group of people who play around our time slot. People get comfortable at a certain level be it 14/15 or whatever. They don't have time to practice so they show up once a week for a game generally playing below their potential but occasionally playing above it 43/44 points.

Lower handicappers tend to take the game a bit more serious and devote a bit more practice to it and generaly play to their ability/potential more often. They tend to be handicapped pretty close to their ability so scores of 43/44 become very rare. Lower handicappers tend to squeeze the best out of their round on a bad day to get in the buffer. Higher handicappers don't often display that resove to avoid a point one.

Dublin Spur

ajcurry123 wrote: »

There's one major thing here that I feel you're not taking into consideration and that is the % of golfers and their handicap range.

Swords Open Golf Club list their members and HC's
http://www.swordsgolfclub.ie/mens/club-directory-2012.1485.html

From these lists
57% of their members are 10-20 HC (inclusive)
40% are 21+ HC's
Only 3% are HC 9 or less.

(The low HC % seems very low to me, maybe it's not a true reflection on most clubs. Anyone know the splits in their own clubs? )

In a club like this, the majority of any honours should be going to the 10-20 HC's purely due to the amount of members in that category.

42/43/44 winning a comp is ok as long as it's not the same guys winning each time.
For every Mid HC'er shooting 44 there could be 9 others shooting much much lower.
Exceptions are more frequent with greater numbers.

It's the % of golfers in the mid handicap range that is causing the problem not the system itself.
If you sent 5 low hc's and 5 mid hc's out for a ten man comp, I'd safety say that the top of the leader board would be weighted towards the Low HC's as they are the guys that are more consistent.
Throw and 30 Mid HC's into this comp and the the Mid HC's would dominate the top of the leader board (and the bottom of it...)

A low handicapper in Swords should be winning the Captains prize once every 33 years based on their present list remaining constant.

Fair enough, I take your point.

I suppose the point I was really trying to make is that it is a lot more difficult for a 5 handicapper to shoot 43/44 points than a 15 handicapper (in terms of how well each player has to perform in terms of their own ability)

I play off 5 and I've broken par only once in my life, this is the level of golf I need to play to in order to compete for my clubs major honours. Yet at the same time I am holding my current handicap with ease. I'm kinda in a no-mans land of 33-36 points, I maintain my handicap but never featuring in the prizes, It gets a little frustrating after a while when weaker players AWAYS win due to the system.

Corkblowin

Dublin Spur wrote: »

Fair enough, I take your point.

I suppose the point I was really trying to make is that it is a lot more difficult for a 5 handicapper to shoot 43/44 points than a 15 handicapper (in terms of how well each player has to perform in terms of their own ability)

I play off 5 and I've broken par only once in my life, this is the level of golf I need to play to in order to compete for my clubs major honours. Yet at the same time I am holding my current handicap with ease. I'm kinda in a no-mans land of 33-36 points, I maintain my handicap but never featuring in the prizes, It gets a little frustrating after a while when weaker players AWAYS win due to the system.

I don't want to come across as harsh - but you've got to stop feeling sorry for yourself. Club competitions are harder for lower handicaps - no doubt - but that's life - just be proud of the level you can play to.

Next season get out of your club & play a few junior scratch cups (& if you can a senior or 2). Off 5 you'll be one of the better players there & you'll see exactly where you game is. No calling anyone a weaker player and no handicaps coming into it - best gross score wins - end of story.

Dublin Spur

Corkblowin wrote: »

I don't want to come across as harsh - but you've got to stop feeling sorry for yourself. Club competitions are harder for lower handicaps - no doubt - but that's life - just be proud of the level you can play to.

Next season get out of your club & play a few junior scratch cups (& if you can a senior or 2). Off 5 you'll be one of the better players there & you'll see exactly where you game is. No calling anyone a weaker player and no handicaps coming into it - best gross score wins - end of story.

okay, but why should they be harder for players in certain handicap ranges ?

You say, "that's life", but that's not a very strong argument for it.

surely in a fair system everyone would have an equal chance ?

The goal should be to find a system where the winner is the player that plays best in relation to their own ability. If this can't be achieved then separate class systems should be standard so players only compete against player of similar ability, it's the fairest way.

all I would like is a more level playing field

Corkblowin

Dublin Spur wrote: »

okay, but why should they be harder for players in certain handicap ranges ?

You say, "that's life", but that's not a very strong argument for it.

surely in a fair system everyone would have an equal chance ?

The goal should be to find a system where the winner is the player that plays best in relation to their own ability. If this can't be achieved then separate class systems should be standard so players only compete against player of similar ability, it's the fairest way.

all I would like is a more level playing field

Once you get to a certain level you have to realise that stableford competitions are going to be harder to win - they are not designed for the steady player. We've more of a chance in stroke competitions, but week to week we're playing for the best gross prize. As someone else pointed out its simple maths - if you've 150 mid to high handicappers in a club one is going to shoot the lights out any given week. With only 52 weeks in a year.......

Like I said - the class systems youre looking for are in the scratch cups. But golf is about more than winning a lump of glass or something - if that's anyone's focus they're in for a lifetime of frustration playing the game.

Dublin Spur

Corkblowin wrote: »

Once you get to a certain level you have to realise that stableford competitions are going to be harder to win - they are not designed for the steady player. We've more of a chance in stroke competitions, but week to week we're playing for the best gross prize. As someone else pointed out its simple maths - if you've 150 mid to high handicappers in a club one is going to shoot the lights out any given week. With only 52 weeks in a year.......

Like I said - the class systems youre looking for are in the scratch cups. But golf is about more than winning a lump of glass or something - if that's anyone's focus playing the game they're in for a lifetime of frustration playing the game.

fair enough,

I can only speak from my own perspective and it would be nice to feature every now and again in the honours, and not have to travel to other clubs to play in scratch cups to have a chance. I'd rather play in my own club and I've paid enough money for the privilege.

The only point I was making was that the reason I rarely feature is down to a handicap system that does not treat all golfers fairly and the same.

Corkblowin

Dublin Spur wrote: »

fair enough,

I can only speak from my own perspective and it would be nice to feature every now and again in the honours, and not have to travel to other clubs to play in scratch cups to have a chance. I'd rather play in my own club and I've paid enough money for the privilege.

The only point I was making was that the reason I rarely feature is down to a handicap system that does not treat all golfers fairly and the same.

For all it's flaws the handicap system is the best thing we have - theres a few cheating the system and it's up to the clubs to weed them out.

Does your club have a golfer of the year? Ours does & it's always been won by a single figure golfer. One of my mates is off 3 and is going to win his clubs goty this year without winning anything other than a few best gross this year. By having points for the top 20 in every comp (or nominated comps) it rewards consistency throughout the year. Might be worth asking for at your AGM if it's not already in.

FixdePitchmark

Corkblowin wrote: »

I don't want to come across as harsh - but you've got to stop feeling sorry for yourself. Club competitions are harder for lower handicaps - no doubt - but that logic -s life - just be proud of the level you can play to.

Next season get out of your club & play a few junior scratch cups (& if you can a senior or 2). Off 5 you'll be one of the better players there & you'll see exactly where you game is. No calling anyone a weaker player and no handicaps coming into it - best gross score wins - end of story.

You may say you are harsh - but does that not prove the system is bull****.

If we sit around waiting for you to say , "I don't

---

bla ---- bla - bla".

It is not about you, it is about golf , it is about logic.

Mathematically the system is flawed, we all know that - live along with it - but don't be fooled by it.

Ratio, and % is the way to go, you can not fool logic.

PARlance

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

You may say you are harsh - but does that not prove the system is bull****.

If we sit around waiting for you to say , "I don't

---

bla ---- bla - bla".

It is not about you, it is about golf , it is about logic.

Mathematically the system is flawed, we all know that - live along with it - but don't be fooled by it.

Ratio, and % is the way to go, you can not fool logic.

How was your Kebab???

Lawless2k12

If people want to reduce banditry then maybe a change in the current .1 system be put in place? The system as it is allows you to go up 2.0 shots of your lowest handicap this year but why not just put a cap on the amount of total .1's you can actually get? I know a guy that's had just over 50 .1's so far this year in our club comps (Outside away comps). Don't know how he's not been reprimanded but if there was a cap of 15 .1's put in place it may reduce banditry in some way? Or a system which allows a different number of .1's to be gained by players in different sections such as CAT1 players can get 10, CAT2 players can get 15 etc.. Higher handicappers would need a bigger number of available .1's as they would have a lack of consistency IMO.

I see posts with people talking about new handicap systems but come on. Be realistic. The time and effort wouldn't be worth it. That's too big a change to try and bring in. A few small changes would do some good because at the end of the day there's always gonna be a few people who find loop holes in the system.

FixdePitchmark

Lawless2k12 wrote: »

If people want to reduce banditry then maybe a change in the current .1 system be put in place? The system as it is allows you to go up 2.0 shots of your lowest handicap this year but why not just put a cap on the amount of total .1's you can actually get? I know a guy that's had just over 50 .1's so far this year in our club comps (Outside away comps). Don't know how he's not been reprimanded but if there was a cap of 15 .1's put in place it may reduce banditry in some way? Or a system which allows a different number of .1's to be gained by players in different sections such as CAT1 players can get 10, CAT2 players can get 15 etc.. Higher handicappers would need a bigger number of available .1's as they would have a lack of consistency IMO.

I see posts with people talking about new handicap systems but come on. Be realistic. The time and effort wouldn't be worth it. That's too big a change to try and bring in. A few small changes would do some good because at the end of the day there's always gonna be a few people who find loop holes in the system.

A new handicap system is not like trying to get to Mars.

I'd imagine you could change by 5 shots if your game just went ? (50 * .1)

onlyfinewine

Lawless2k12 wrote: »

If people want to reduce banditry then maybe a change in the current .1 system be put in place? The system as it is allows you to go up 2.0 shots of your lowest handicap this year but why not just put a cap on the amount of total .1's you can actually get? I know a guy that's had just over 50 .1's so far this year in our club comps (Outside away comps). Don't know how he's not been reprimanded but if there was a cap of 15 .1's put in place it may reduce banditry in some way? Or a system which allows a different number of .1's to be gained by players in different sections such as CAT1 players can get 10, CAT2 players can get 15 etc.. Higher handicappers would need a bigger number of available .1's as they would have a lack of consistency IMO.

I see posts with people talking about new handicap systems but come on. Be realistic. The time and effort wouldn't be worth it. That's too big a change to try and bring in. A few small changes would do some good because at the end of the day there's always gonna be a few people who find loop holes in the system.

If instead of capping them you instead hold the granting of the point one increases for 6 months and allow handicaps to be cut for performance as per usual in the meantime you will highlight the point one merchants.

The handicap secretary can judge their ability over a reasonable period, and take classic and Society scores into account before deciding whether they should be allowed 40 or 50 point ones.

It will only affect those with lots of time to play in all these competitions and who have produced superior scores during the period. The handicap record will reflect the outstanding performances over the same time scale.

It costs nothing to implement and the big advantage is that you can keep the present system which has had an immense amount of thought and time put into it, and stop the abuse by these handicap builders.

Lawless2k12

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

A new handicap system is not like trying to get to Mars.

I'd imagine you could change by 5 shots if your game just went ? (50 * .1)

But its a lot of hassle since everyone knows the score with the present system and it's a good system if it wasn't abused.

And you probably could change 5 shots, but unfortunately the certain person I mentioned has won player of the year by a good 15 points after his 4 major wins thru the year, all above 42 points. And then the next day after this massive win, he shoots 28/29 points. Everyone knows the story.

fullshred_music

In my opinion, one of the difficulties with the current system is the fact that HCs only change in qualifying competitions.

Case and point: I was given a starting handicap last year of 17. I've played in only one qualifying competition, pushing me to 17.1. However, I have played frequently this year, and shot 77 on a par 70 course last weekend (in a friendly match).

If I shot this kind of round in a competition I'd be accused on being a complete bandit, playing off 17, despite the fact that I have done nothing to deliberately manipulate my handicap - I just haven't played in qualifying competitions.

Any thoughts / corrections?

BigChap1759

fullshred_music wrote: »

In my opinion, one of the difficulties with the current system is the fact that HCs only change in qualifying competitions.

Case and point: I was given a starting handicap last year of 17. I've played in only one qualifying competition, pushing me to 17.1. However, I have played frequently this year, and shot 77 on a par 70 course last weekend (in a friendly match).

If I shot this kind of round in a competition I'd be accused on being a complete bandit, playing off 17, despite the fact that I have done nothing to deliberately manipulate my handicap - I just haven't played in qualifying competitions.

Any thoughts / corrections?

Ifs, buts, maybe's - you haven't played the required 3 qualifying rounds to maintain your handicap anyway so you're out :pac:

And why bother getting a handicap if you aren't going to play qualifiers?

fullshred_music

Forgive my ignorance:

My 17.1 handicap is a GUI handicap (I posted three cards shortly after joining a club last year).

What do you mean by: "you haven't played three qualifying rounds so you're out"?

Thanks.

BigChap1759

I was just being flipant - it's my understanding that you need to submit 3 qualifying cards in any given year to maintain your handicap so I'm assuming your's has lapsed.........and therefore you might not be in the best position to be suggesting changes to the handicapping system

GreeBo

fullshred_music wrote: »

In my opinion, one of the difficulties with the current system is the fact that HCs only change in qualifying competitions.

Case and point: I was given a starting handicap last year of 17. I've played in only one qualifying competition, pushing me to 17.1. However, I have played frequently this year, and shot 77 on a par 70 course last weekend (in a friendly match).

If I shot this kind of round in a competition I'd be accused on being a complete bandit, playing off 17, despite the fact that I have done nothing to deliberately manipulate my handicap - I just haven't played in qualifying competitions.

Any thoughts / corrections?

tbf you can hardly complain about a system being inaccurate when you dont use that system.
I cant say that eye tests are useless if I take one and then dont take another for 10 years.

Why are you not playing competitions? Your handicap is there to give a good way to compare your ability to others, if you are not regularly playing
with a large group of people then its pretty impossible to determine how you are playing relative to them.
There is no CSS so how can they say if the 33 points you scored was really good or just average as it was an easy day?

Almaviva

Corkblowin wrote: »

Club competitions are harder for lower handicaps - no doubt - but that's life - just be proud of the level you can play to.

Is fully incorrect. Lower handicap golfers have a higher chance of winning a competition than higher handicappers.

Almaviva

Dublin Spur wrote: »

in my club the vast majority of major honours go to members in the 10 to 20 handicap range, every year its always the same.

Of course they do. 80% of golfers are in the range 10-20, so winners are most likely to be from this category.

Lawless2k12

Almaviva wrote: »

Is fully incorrect. Lower handicap golfers have a higher chance of winning a competition than higher handicappers.

How? How can a 2 handicapper have a better chance than a 16 handicapper? Unless it's stroke play... the 2 handicapper will probably have 33 to 39 points whereas the 16 handicapper could easily hit 42 or 43 points on a good enough day. Obviously they could equally hit as low as 26 or 27 points but a good day for them will be a much better than a good day for the fella off 2 I would imagine?

Almaviva

mike12 wrote: »

Only way to stop the 42 points winning everything is only allow you to play after you have maintained a handicap for 3 years where you have practiced and played at least twice a week so you have all your improving done before you are allowed to play in comps:D.
Mike

I think something along these lines would be a better way to go.

Apart from the misunderstandings that lead to griping about how unfair the handicap system is, or how the rest of the world are all bandits (" I should shoot 36pts on average", "its always high handicappers who win", etc), there is a fundamental inbuilt conflict in the handicap system which has never been resolved, and grew worse since the introduction of the present mathematical algorithm system :

the ideal of the handicap system is that all golfers go out to compete with a handicap that equalises their chances - but - it does not deal with the 'improving' golfer until after his improvement has been demonstrated in a competition that he went into with understanding that his handicap was correct.

So the beginner, or improver is rewarded as if he played best on a given day. When he didnt really. Just his handicap was 'incorrect' in the golfing sense, though correct (and fully legal) according to the system.
The ESR is a effort to increase the slope of the downward trending golfers decrease, but really is only a band aid on a serous wound. It reduces some of the moaning about hot golfer having a run of prizes as their handicap tries to catch up with their playing level. But still allows him to compete with the wrong handicap.

Requiring players to be withing a 'window' of comformance to their handicap showing some stability in order to be able to compete might improve things. But unfortunately I think, there is no solution.

Almaviva

Lawless2k12 wrote: »

the 2 handicapper will probably have 33 to 39 points

If he does, he is a bandit.

Lawless2k12 wrote: »

the 16 handicapper could easily hit 42 or 43 points on a good enough day.

The chances are minute. But, granted higher than the 2 handicappers: many more 16 handicapper with incorrect handicaps than 2 handicappers with incorrect handicaps. So competitions will always seem to be won by some 16 handicapper.

See below for some analysis :
http://www.scottishgolf.org/files/Myths___Misconceptions_Report_1_June_2005.pdf

I do consider it a failure of CONGU that they do not communicate the aim of the handicap system better to players : you should average 4 or 5 shots worse than yor handicap, and beat it once in a blue moon. If your handicap is correct that is. It doesnt even try to cater for the improver as described above. Let alone a handicap managing bandit.