Is It Time To End The Failed Handicap System.

FixdePitchmark

;)

It is clear from the posts on here ,that the handicap system does not work.

Could a new system be created.

A system based on a stroke score you have achieved.
Like Football. If you score a 75 or less you are in division 1
75 - 80 division 2.

In other words, no strokes, no lazy stableford.

etc , etc.

Time for a re-think. Time for me to have a re-think. But a lad off 28 playing a guy off 4 needs some soul searching in my view.

ryaner777

If everybody played stroke play all the time it would take hours and hours to get around.

Imagine being behind a society ( especially one with me in it ) on a saturday or sunday and everyone playing stroke play ?

maybe if you had all divisons over 12 h'cap in a situation that they had to play stableford and under had to play stroke play ?

At least its good to have a thread on coming up with suggestions to improve the system instead of just giving out about the bandits that abuse it.

mike12

Seems like a bit of a lazy post. Most clubs have different divisions so that is there already.
The point of handicapping is for everybody to be able to play together off a level playing field. No fun in sticking all the 22 plus handicaps off out together and all the 5 or less guys.
I have shot 73 once in my life so that would put me division 1 where i would be finishing 10 or more shots behind most of the guys every week.
Have another think about it and see what else you can come up with.

The slope system has some pluses when playing new courses if you are off 10 in your home course but you are playing some where like the European club you would get to play off 12 or 13 for the day.
Mike

MP62

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

;)

It is clear from the posts on here ,that the handicap system does not work.

Could a new system be created.

A system based on a stroke score you have achieved.
Like Football. If you score a 75 or less you are in division 1
75 - 80 division 2.

In other words, no strokes, no lazy stableford.

etc , etc.

Time for a re-think. Time for me to have a re-think. But a lad off 28 playing a guy off 4 needs some soul searching in my view.

Another drunken post?, perhaps we should ban drink to save this kind of embarrassment
The only thing that's clear from the other thread is that a tiny minority will always cheat and then try to justify it later.
The handicap system isn't perfect and doesn't claim to be, but when adhered to in an honest fashion, it works very well, e.g look at the UK.

FixdePitchmark

But, it would do your head in, all the .1 stuff and pulling and not giving in cards. Then having same teams winning stuff.

I think it was a post yesterday of lads not playing in a cross wind, was the final insult for me.

It just seems to be a constant problem on here.

FixdePitchmark

mike12 wrote: »

Seems like a bit of a lazy post. Most clubs have different divisions so that is there already.
The point of handicapping is for everybody to be able to play together off a level playing field. No fun in sticking all the 22 plus handicaps off out together and all the 5 or less guys.
I have shot 73 once in my life so that would put me division 1 where i would be finishing 10 or more shots behind most of the guys every week.
Have another think about it and see what else you can come up with.

The slope system has some pluses when playing new courses if you are off 10 in your home course but you are playing some where like the European club you would get to play off 12 or 13 for the day.
Mike

Yes not my best - :mad:

But does the existence of divisions, support the theory that the handicap system is not working.

Division of a handicap system, goes against the principle of a handicap system. Therefore there is already an attempt to overcome the flaws.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

But, it would do your head in, all the .1 stuff and pulling and not giving in cards. Then having same teams winning stuff.

I think it was a post yesterday of lads not playing in a cross wind, was the final insult for me.

It just seems to be a constant problem on here.

And your system addresses this how? Unless you have a referee beside each player then the game is open to cheating. Other sports DO have a referee and people still cheat.

PARlance

When we all get on the European or US Tour, all this worry will be behind us

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

And your system addresses this how? Unless you have a referee beside each player then the game is open to cheating. Other sports DO have a referee and people still cheat.

Other sports don't have a handicap system.

Friends of mine new to golf think it is daft. Sometimes you need to say, ok have we in golf just got this all wrong ? It is only for the great brains on here to say , hey - your full of **** again and why , cool, now I know why.

But, from reading on here , it is far from a small little problem.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Other sports don't have a handicap system.

Friends of mine new to golf think it is daft. Sometimes you need to say, ok have we in golf just got this all wrong ? It is only for the great brains on here to say , hey - your full of **** again and why , cool, now I know why.

But, from reading on here , it is far from a small little problem.

How does the handicap system change whether or not people cheat?

Why do your friends think its daft? Because they are not used to sports where you are your own referee?

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

How does the handicap system change whether or not people cheat?

Why do your friends think its daft? Because they are not used to sports where you are your own referee?

Because they are from sports with no handicap.

They nearly buy into it, then see some lad off 17 taking the piss and winning a trophy and the lad off 9 gets a head cover. They just laugh and say that lad is taking the piss off 17, golf is for old fat men.

I try explain it, but they say that is mad or for horses. Anyway - stick with your own.

djimi

I guess in most other sports you dont get players of such varying levels playing against one another. I play cricket, and you never have a guy who is divison 1 standard playing in the same game as a guy who plays division 7.

BigChap1759

As above no system can, or should make allowances for people who want to cheat - the CONGU handicap system does a bloody good job of allowing golfers of massively different abilities to compete together.

All the moaners on here do my head in - if you don't like the current system then you have a few choices - lobby CONGU directly with your contructive suggestions for change, play off scratch, only play socially or try another sport..............and breathe

slave1

There's no panecea to address folk who abuse the handicap system, the current system is fine if you take the view of level playing field and always out to get your handicap down (within the rules).
When prizes come into play it starts collapsing IMHO.

AGC

No matter what the system there will be issues.

My 2 biggest issues with the system are:

1: In my home club from medals to weekly events you will see standard scratch at -1 no matter what sort of scores you see come through. IMO if they could do something about the individual categories and standard scratch it would be a massive help. Somebody in CAT 4 should not affect CAT 1

2: The amount of lads that you see playing in championships that can't break 80 yet enter year after year off + handicaps while lads just outside don't get a chance.

Point 2 is more a rant:p

BigChap1759

I could be wrong but I'm fairly sure CAT4 scores have no influence on calculating the CSS - anyone care to confirm?

AGC

BigChap1759 wrote: »

I could be wrong but I'm fairly sure CAT4 scores have no influence on calculating the CSS - anyone care to confirm?

Sorry you are right. CAT 3

FixdePitchmark

djimi wrote: »

I guess in most other sports you dont get players of such varying levels playing against one another. I play cricket, and you never have a guy who is divison 1 standard playing in the same game as a guy who plays division 7.

That is the sort of system that would work well - a stroke divison system.
The aim is to move up a divison, this would make people want to improve. You can drop a divison if you can't keep up (yearly). But like all other sports the prestige will be based on the divison you are in. Not winning the Vauxhaul Conference.

Early days with this concept

Dublin Spur

in my club the vast majority of major honours go to members in the 10 to 20 handicap range, every year its always the same.

The low handicappers rarely get a look in and usually have to wait for a scratch cup to come along before having a chance of glory.

The problem is as I see it that 42/43/44 points usually wins the big events at my club and that would mean a 5 handicapper (like myself) would need to shoot something like -2 or -3 gross in order to compete where as a 15 handicapper only has to shoot +7 or +8.

In my opinion, this is where the handicap system breaks down, it's simply not true that shooting -3 for a player off 5 is the same difficulty as shooting +7 for a player off 15.

And that's why the golfers in the teen handicap range usually hoover up all the big prizes while the lower players have very little to show for it other than having a handicap they are proud of and knowing that are a better player then most "winners"

The simple solution is to have class scoring in every compeition (senior/junior/intermediate/minor), therefore every player has a chance of winning out of their own peer group and it's a much more even playing field. Some might say that you always need 1 overall winner but I don't see why you couldn't have 4 (1 winner per class) if it was for the good of the game.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

That is the sort of system that would work well - a stroke divison system.
The aim is to move up a divison, this would make people want to improve. You can drop a divison if you can't keep up (yearly). But like all other sports the prestige will be based on the divison you are in. Not winning the Vauxhaul Conference.

Early days with this concept

You mean like the current handicap class system?

GreeBo

Dublin Spur wrote: »

in my club the vast majority of major honours go to members in the 10 to 20 handicap range, every year its always the same.

The low handicappers rarely get a look in and usually have to wait for a scratch cup to come along before having a chance of glory.

The problem is as I see it that 42/43/44 points usually wins the big events at my club and that would mean a 5 handicapper (like myself) would need to shoot something like -2 or -3 gross in order to compete where as a 15 handicapper only has to shoot +7 or +8.

In my opinion, this is where the handicap system breaks down, it's simply not true that shooting -3 for a player off 5 is the same difficulty as shooting +7 for a player off 15.

And that's why the golfers in the teen handicap range usually hoover up all the big prizes while the lower players have very little to show for it other than having a handicap they are proud of and knowing that are a better player then most "winners"

The simple solution is to have class scoring in every compeition (senior/junior/intermediate/minor), therefore every player has a chance of winning out of their own peer group and it's a much more even playing field. Some might say that you always need 1 overall winner but I don't see why you couldn't have 4 (1 winner per class) if it was for the good of the game.

Mathematically the higher the handicap the more room for improvement you have and thus you are going to get people shooting significantly under par. This is maths, its not people abusing the system.


All Medal competitions in my club have prizes per class.

FixdePitchmark

Dublin Spur wrote: »

in my club the vast majority of major honours go to members in the 10 to 20 handicap range, every year its always the same.

The low handicappers rarely get a look in and usually have to wait for a scratch cup to come along before having a chance of glory.

The problem is as I see it that 42/43/44 points usually wins the big events at my club and that would mean a 5 handicapper (like myself) would need to shoot something like -2 or -3 gross in order to compete where as a 15 handicapper only has to shoot +7 or +8.

In my opinion, this is where the handicap system breaks down, it's simply not true that shooting -3 for a player off 5 is the same difficulty as shooting +7 for a player off 15.

And that's why the golfers in the teen handicap range usually hoover up all the big prizes while the lower players have very little to show for it other than having a handicap they are proud of and knowing that are a better player then most "winners"

The simple solution is to have class scoring in every compeition (senior/junior/intermediate/minor), therefore every player has a chance of winning out of their own peer group and it's a much more even playing field. Some might say that you always need 1 overall winner but I don't see why you couldn't have 4 (1 winner per class) if it was for the good of the game.

Fair play, calling it as it is.

That is what i've been trying to say in my brainstorming -
That is what people who are new to golf say to me.

There is something nice about all playing together in the one sport, it makes the game very friendly. That is why when people take advantage of that it makes it very sad.

Great Idea - now we are getting places.

mike12

Dublin Spur wrote: »

in my club the vast majority of major honours go to members in the 10 to 20 handicap range, every year its always the same.

The low handicappers rarely get a look in and usually have to wait for a scratch cup to come along before having a chance of glory.

The problem is as I see it that 42/43/44 points usually wins the big events at my club and that would mean a 5 handicapper (like myself) would need to shoot something like -2 or -3 gross in order to compete where as a 15 handicapper only has to shoot +7 or +8.

In my opinion, this is where the handicap system breaks down, it's simply not true that shooting -3 for a player off 5 is the same difficulty as shooting +7 for a player off 15.

And that's why the golfers in the teen handicap range usually hoover up all the big prizes while the lower players have very little to show for it other than having a handicap they are proud of and knowing that are a better player then most "winners"

The simple solution is to have class scoring in every compeition (senior/junior/intermediate/minor), therefore every player has a chance of winning out of their own peer group and it's a much more even playing field. Some might say that you always need 1 overall winner but I don't see why you couldn't have 4 (1 winner per class) if it was for the good of the game.

All the comps in my club have a divisional section, If you look at it from your starting handicap down to where you are now you would have had years when you got cut 4 or 5 strokes those are the years you have a chance of winning i went from 18 to 12 over 3 years and won 2 captains prizes during that time. Now i feel that my chances are gone as i am down as low as i can go at it is the time of the other guys that are improving.

Only way to stop the 42 points winning everything is only allow you to play after you have maintained a handicap for 3 years where you have practiced and played at least twice a week so you have all your improving done before you are allowed to play in comps:D.
Mike

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

You mean like the current handicap class system?

No - something a bit more radical that counts all strokes. No strokes given.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

No - something a bit more radical that counts all strokes. No strokes given.

Ok, so you are taking a system where by and large people of vastly different abilities get to compete fairly with each other and replacing it with one where its way more likely that you are directly competing with people who are of a different standard than you?

Think of the premier league...I think we can all name the top 4 teams year in year out. Thats what you are advocating we change to.
Within each division you are going to have huge gulfs in class and nothing to balance that out.
At the moment we have a system where the Acrington Stanleys can compete against and beat the Man Uniteds.

How would you fancy being the guy who just scrapes into Division 2 playing for the same prizes as guys who are just outside Division 1, who average 10 strokes less than you a round?

Not sure you have thought this through tbh...

Leprechaun77

The handicap system has not failed IMO. This structure encourages people to take up the game, and remain playing regardless of ability. This new suggestion would lead to a form of elitism if you ask me and would be detrimental to the long term viability of the game.

Not everyone can play to single figures, but the handicapping method allows the 20 handicap to compete against better players and gives him a real chance of beating him....nothing worse than playing a game where you know you are going to get beaten. Eventually you will say ' feck this for a game of soldiers'. As with everything in life, some people will abuse whatever system is in place. A suggestion might be to focus on stamping out the abuse rather than changing the whole system.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

Ok, so you are taking a system where by and large people of vastly different abilities get to compete fairly with each other and replacing it with one where its way more likely that you are directly competing with people who are of a different standard than you?

Think of the premier league...I think we can all name the top 4 teams year in year out. Thats what you are advocating we change to.
Within each division you are going to have huge gulfs in class and nothing to balance that out.
At the moment we have a system where the Acrington Stanleys can compete against and beat the Man Uniteds.

How would you fancy being the guy who just scrapes into Division 2 playing for the same prizes as guys who are just outside Division 1, who average 10 strokes less than you a round?

Not sure you have thought this through tbh...

The divisions can be much tighter than 10 shots. 2, to 3, to 5, to 8 Fibonacci my friend.

But, what you said up there is what sport is, you work hard to become division 1, you go bad you are division 2. Life, not we are all the same - not like that in any other sport.

FixdePitchmark

Leprechaun77 wrote: »

The handicap system has not failed IMO. This structure encourages people to take up the game, and remain playing regardless of ability. This new suggestion would lead to a form of elitism if you ask me and would be detrimental to the long term viability of the game.

Not everyone can play to single figures, but the handicapping method allows the 20 handicap to compete against better players and gives him a real chance of beating him....nothing worse than playing a game where you know you are going to get beaten. Eventually you will say ' feck this for a game of soldiers'. As with everything in life, some people will abuse whatever system is in place. A suggestion might be to focus on stamping out the abuse rather than changing the whole system.

There are people who play sport at all levels all over the world, we are not getting rid of that.

GreeBo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

The divisions can be much tighter than 10 shots. 2, to 3, to 5, to 8 Fibonacci my friend.

But, what you said up there is what sport is, you work hard to become division 1, you go bad you are division 2. Life, not we are all the same - not like that in any other sport.

0,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34
Hmm thats much better, so at the top end you have a gap of 13 shots or 8 shots?
I'm not saying there is a problem with having divisions, I'm saying that the people at the bottom of the division have no chance of competing against the people at the top of division, due to the 8,13 or 21 shot difference between them.
Your attempt to make things fairer has just made it worse. The same people will win everything.
How do you move between these divisions? If your divisions are based on handicap then you haven't solved anything.

onlyfinewine

The handicap system is mathematically pretty good, the problem is that it can be manipulated, particularly by the point one merchants. What you need to do is to discourage handicap building and I have not seen anything on this thread that would help achieve that goal. Anytime a golfer can decide not to play his best on purpose and gather an increase in handicap without any checks or balances it will inevitably lead to abuses.

My suggestion is that all point one increases be held in Limbo until the annual review by the handicap secretary. This would allow a more level playing field over time and do away with the ability to increase your handicap quickly after being cut for a good performance. It would also highlight the amount of point one increases versus the excellent scores achieved during the year.

Unfortunately it would also have the effect of reducing the amount of open singles that would be played and thus depress revenues in the short term.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

0,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34
Hmm thats much better, so at the top end you have a gap of 13 shots or 8 shots?
I'm not saying there is a problem with having divisions, I'm saying that the people at the bottom of the division have no chance of competing against the people at the top of division, due to the 8,13 or 21 shot difference between them.
Your attempt to make things fairer has just made it worse. The same people will win everything.
How do you move between these divisions? If your divisions are based on handicap then you haven't solved anything.

average score. all strokes counted.

Didn’t think 0,1,1, 2 made sense –

Anyway, the point i’m making is that the range is not linear. The higher your typical score, the larger your range, the better the opportunity to improve. That is why the range in the higher groups could be in the order of 8 or even 13.

Another flaw in the handicap system is the failure to apply any relativity to the score. This is particularly flawed with lower handicap players. So a guy off 5 may be 2 shots better and get 38 pts. A guy off 18 gets 2 shots better he gets 38. In fact, this can be further magnified by the stroke index of the holes (as in the 5 handicapper having no shots on the holes in question). I think the guy off 5 should win in the 38pts example above.

I’m not saying that any system is going to be perfect, but I’d imagine there is unspoken unease amongst the lower handicap players about the unfairness of the system. I think the lower handicap players have said that a bit here.

I also considered a score ratio scale, to establish winner. A guy off 18 scoring + 16 would be a score of 0.888888, while a guy off 5 scoring +4 would be 0.8. So 0.8 is the winner.

Just a bit of hypothetical brainstorming, no harm done, it is not as if it is (ever) going to change. The vast majority of golfers are of higher handicap, so can’t see much push or even inclination for a change. It suits me as I’m in the range were it is easier to win things. I just don’t think it is fair on lads in single figures. What on earth would a guy off 5 have to do to score 40 pts, that is like a full time job at that stage, maybe 5, 6 hours a week practice, 3 games a week.

But hey perhaps they don’t mind, they have the lowest score and scratch cups etc.

The handicap system is fun and that is all that matters, but perhaps it is the greatest obstacle to people improving in golf. I’ve seen it with friends who are happy out with a shot a hole and would not ever want to change that for the world.

Anyway, GreeBo – no point in arguing hypothetical modernisation, you tend to stick to the traditions of the game and logic in argument. I respect that.

I’ll leave this with a comment that a friend of mine, taking up golf said to me, I was trying to explain the greatness of the handicap system. He from a background of top level soccer, not a clue about golf.

“But, why doesn’t the best player win the trophy ?”.

He is wrong, I know, but perhaps an outsider can see problems in something that those within are blind to.