Is It Illogical To Buy Saorview In the Border Regions?

eirman

I have come to the conclusion that it just doesn't make sense to purchase any kind of Saorview equipment, if you have a decent signal from the North (which I have).

I bought a Saorview TV recently and I regret it. It's DVB-T only, so I won't be able to view HD from the north. (DVB-T2 required). I'd rather have 11 or 12 HD channels compared the present 1 (max 4).

I don't care where the Irish channels first appear in my EPG .... I can sort them and/or use favourites.

My next TV or PVR will be purchased in the north and will be DVB-T2 compliant.

Any flaws in my logic?

STB

What make and model is the TV. Some Saorview approved TV's are also Freeview HD approved.

watty

It's always said on www.saortv.info that it may make more sense in Border areas to get UK Freeview HD, but to check compatibility. A small number of UK "Freeview HD" models work poorly or not at all on Saorview.

Saorview items certified after 2013 will be able to receive UK "Freeview HD" in areas that have a signal.

http://www.saortv.info/free-uk-tv/

The Cush

eirman wrote: »

Any flaws in my logic?

Don't rule out all Saorview approved TVs, as STB says above some Saorview approved TV come with a DVB-T2 tuner e.g. the Sony approved TVs here with models nos. ending with 3 or 4 - http://www.saorview.ie/product/sony/. There are others.

doney84

Living close to the border myself and get decent signal from Divis. Purchased the Samsung ES5500 which is Saorview & Freeview HD approved. So far so good with it picking up both sets of channels and when the 24th comes hopefully I'll also have the Freeview HD channels. Great tv, one EPG lists all channels and you can arrange them in any order you want. MHEG 5 text works on both the Irish & English stations.

The Cush

eirman wrote: »

My next TV or PVR will be purchased in the north and will be DVB-T2 compliant.

If you opt for one of the new Samsung smart PVRs perhaps you could post how it handles the recording of both Saorview and Freeview together. It's been asked over in the thread discussing that PVR but with no reply - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80989142#post80989142

In the old days

eirman wrote: »

I don't care where the Irish channels first appear in my EPG .... I can sort them and/or use favourites.

My next TV or PVR will be purchased in the north and will be DVB-T2 compliant.

Any flaws in my logic?

Some issues can exist with Freeview HD equipment/TVs. EPG timer, rearranging channel lnumbers, handling old style teletext etc. can all be hit and miss. You would need to sure of your priorities and do your research to avoid frustration.

STB

Products with both Saorview and Freeview HD certification (common)

Samsung

UE**D4010
UE**D5000PK
LE**D550 / LN**D550
PS**D450
UE**D6510

LG
**LV355T
**PT353K
**LW550T
**LW450U

Sony
KDL-**EX524
KDL-**NX723
KDL-**EX723

Toshiba
**VL863

** stands for screen size (can be 32/37/42 etc)

bridster007

The Cush wrote: »

If you opt for one of the new Samsung smart PVRs perhaps you could post how it handles the recording of both Saorview and Freeview together. It's been asked over in the thread discussing that PVR but with no reply - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80989142#post80989142

Likely to have issues with a PVR.
See this thread with sound problems for Panasonic Freeview HD recorder.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056521967

Also problems with Sony SVR HDT Freeview HD recorder, can't timer record from SV and FV at same time.
Humax Fox T2 HDR loses SV epg when on the FV system and vice versa.

sesswhat

One thing I would add is that the manufacturers seem to be restricting DVB-T2 tuners to their higher specification TVs. If you are buying a high spec TV anyway, then there may not be much price difference between one with DVB-T2 and one without.

On the other hand, for a basic TV for a kitchen/bedroom (or for a less bells and whistles obsessed relative), the price difference can be huge.

Just as an example, a popular 32in LCD is this LG 32CS460 available from Amazon for £209.99.

The T2 version 32CS460T seems to be only available in Scandanavian and E European markets.

Meanwhile, the cheapest 32in Freeview HD 2012 model LG from Amazon seems to be the 32LS570T at £388.99.

The story is similar for Samsung, with the Freeview HD models starting at around double the price of the basic models.

For many, the improvement in picture quality of the Freeview HD channels may not be an issue at smaller screen sizes and so the longeivity of the SD simulcasts may be the biggest concern.

Perhaps if the DVB-T SD channels are to be phased out, the sequence in which it happens may follow DSO, and so NI's SD channels would be safe for a good many years to come.

Sam Russell

sesswhat wrote: »

Perhaps if the DVB-T SD channels are to be phased out, the sequence in which it happens may follow DSO, and so NI's SD channels would be safe for a good many years to come.

Perhaps they could have gone straight to DVB-T2 for a few of the muxes in NI, say for one or two of the com muxes. Not sure if we could hear the screams of protest here in Dublin if they had.

reslfj

sesswhat wrote: »

One thing I would add is that the manufacturers seem to be restricting DVB-T2 tuners to their higher specification TVs.

Now - it's done only as a marketing tool to get better average prices.

When DVB-T2 is needed for Saorview approval as it will from 2013 - very few and 'very discount' DVB-T models will remain on the market. This could have been mandated with few problems and likely very little extra cost to consumers - from say a little into 2011.

Business should just have been told - in no uncertain terms - and they would have delivered - and in all price groups.

Lars

watty

Demand for non DVB-T2 will start to drop in UK in the next year. When they are not producing DVB-T only for UK any longer there will be 6 months of low prices and "product dumping" of obsolete models.

So DVB-T2 will be at current DVB-T prices by end 2013 or early 2014. No doubt Maplin will still be selling generic MPEG2 & DVB-T only portable TVs in 2013 & 2014. In Ireland and UK.

eirman

reslfj wrote: »

When DVB-T2 is needed for Saorview approval as it will from 2013

That's big news to me .... and if it's true, it's just plain daft!

So most of the present Saorview TVs won't be up to spec next year? Will vendors have to remove the approved sticker from present stock after a certain date?

What date are we talking about in 2013?

The Cush

eirman wrote: »

That's big news to me .... and if it's true, it's just plain daft!

So most of the present Saorview TVs won't be up to spec next year? Will vendors have to remove the approved sticker from present stock after a certain date?

What date are we talking about in 2013?

1st Jan 2013 for any new receivers submitted for testing and approval.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80777591#post80777591

There are no plans to use DVB-T2, just a future proofing exercise. Your existing Saorview approved receiver will be up to spec for many years to come.

watty

It's very sensible to bring it in at start of 2013. By then no extra cost.
No-one in UK should have been buying other than DVB-T2 HD in the last year. From this November 2012 UK purchasers will be more aware of it.

It's likely the new certification will only apply to new stock and especially new models. So as I suggested earlier there will be plenty of DVB-T only stock on sale in 2013. But it's good news for people upgrading TVs or PVRs in Border areas in 2013, they will be able to choose Saorview T2 or Freeview HD and a higher likelihood of PVR that works properly on both systems.

Pangea

STB wrote: »

Products with both Saorview and Freeview HD certification (common)

I have a Sony 32EX403, I don't think it came with a Saorview certification as such, but it is Freeview HD and Saorview capable.
Although as I said before on here the epg for Saorview isn't working properly for the 7 day guide, only gives me information for now and next.
I wonder has there been any progress made on this on Sony's part, there was quite a few complaints about this.

STB

Pangea wrote: »

I have a Sony 32EX403, I don't think it came with a Saorview certification as such, but it is Freeview HD and Saorview capable.
Although as I said before on here the epg for Saorview isn't working properly for the 7 day guide, only gives me information for now and next.
I wonder has there been any progress made on this on Sony's part, there was quite a few complaints about this.

The list I posted is only TV's that have both Freeview HD and Saorview Certification.

There are only 3 Sony lines at present that fit this criteria. The 403 isnt in that list. It isnt Saorview certified.

There are plenty of TVs despite no certification that work fine or just partly. Certification is just peace of mind that whatever is thrown at will work. Having said that picking the country profile at setup (even on a multi certified TV) will dictate what is turned on and turned off in the firmware of the TV for your chosen country as they are pan European TV's with varied certifications.

Only people (living in border overspill areas) who have these multi certified TV's will be able to find out what works to their satisfaction by trying the UK country setup and then Irish country setup and seeing how the implementations affect one or the other country's services. Example is using the Ireland in setup but perhaps finding out that it turns off the tuning in of DVB-T2 services in the firmware. Trial and error. The thing with a multi certified TV is that you at least know that picking one will definitely give you the choice.

On your issue with a Freeview HD product (that doesnt have Saorview certification) do you have an option on your 403 to pick a different country at setup ? If you choose France, it may solve your problem with the epg, but you may loose MHEG text (as the French use MHP). That may be an acceptable compromise for you whilst you wait for Sony to solve your issue with a firmware update, if they do these things these days, I doubt it. They may point you to their certified products for Saorview!

zg3409

So I suppose the next question is which TV works 100% with every feature in border areas on both Freeview HD and Saorview at least with the current broadcasts.

watty

It's complicated by the fact that many TVs can work perfectly for Freeview OR Saorview, but even if certified for both don't sensibly integrate EPG and Interactive if both signals can be tuned at the same time.

LCN of course can't work properly for both at the same time. One service has to "win" or some other user controlled method of channel ordering/selection.

Sam Russell

Hopefully, there could be a migration between the two standards to increase compatibility between the two standards. The UK standard only applies to the UK so they could move towards Nordig with no other problems. Because both Saorview and Freeview allow over the air upgrades (OTA), the two standards could change with no effect on viewers.

With Pan-European sets, this makes sense for the manufacturers who could be the drivers in this. It makes for lower manufacturing costs. I would think the EU could also have an interest as well.

formerly scottish paddy

It would certainly be sensible for a common standard within the EU as you say, and I am sure all equipment manufacturers would be pushing for it.

Pangea

STB wrote: »

The list I posted is only

On your issue with a Freeview HD product (that doesnt have Saorview certification) do you have an option on your 403 to pick a different country at setup ? If you choose France, it may solve your problem with the epg, but you may loose MHEG text (as the French use MHP). That may be an acceptable compromise for you whilst you wait for Sony to solve your issue with a firmware update, if they do these things these days, I doubt it. They may point you to their certified products for Saorview!

Good thinking, I just changed the country to 'UK' to see if I could get any Freeview channels, after searching for channels it just tuned in the Saorview channels again, although on top of the epg it said 'Freeview' and all the Saorview channels were labelled in the 800s instead of the 100s, but the signal obviously wasn't strong enough to pick any Freeview up. It was worth a try though

sesswhat

STB wrote: »

Products with both Saorview and Freeview HD certification (common)

Samsung

UE**D4010
UE**D5000PK
LE**D550 / LN**D550
PS**D450
UE**D6510

LG
**LV355T
**PT353K
**LW550T
**LW450U

Sony
KDL-**EX524
KDL-**NX723
KDL-**EX723

Toshiba
**VL863

** stands for screen size (can be 32/37/42 etc)

The official Freeview site can be a bit slow to update and so some of the above may be older models and harder to source. Part of the problem with Freeview HD is getting access to a definitive list of products. The WHICH website does let you filter models they have reviewed by a number of criteria, including Freeview HD. This link shows Samsung, LG, Sony and Toshiba models, along with the date reviewed and UK prices. The Currys UK site allows you to use similar filters.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of either site of course but they may be a good starting point. Everything could subsequently be checked for Saorview approval.

JonathonS

Its not only Freeview or Saorview that may not have a full listing of approved products. Manufacturers themselves sometimes struggle to keep their sites updated. Sony have an Irish and a UK site, the Irish site states that all of their TVs are Saorview approved and gives a list. A check of the TV specs on the UK site shows that all models have T2 tuners, but not all of the models on the Irish site are listed.

Conclusion - all 2012 model Sony TVs are Saorview approved and have Freeview HD tuners.

All Panasonic 2012 TVs have Freeview HD tuners, but not all are Saorview approved. A search for "Saorview" on the Panasonic UK and Ireland site comes up with no results.....

All 2012 Samsung TVs are Saorview approved, but only some have T2 tuners. Check individual models on Samsung site.

LG is another whose site does not recognise Saorview. All 2012 TV models are Saorview approved, only half have T2 tuners.

Toshiba does give results for Saorview but its Saorview approved range is far larger than this search reveals. RL953 models and above have T2 tuners, and all are Saorview approved.

watty

Conclusion - all 2012 model Sony TVs are Saorview approved and have Freeview HD tuners.

I can't see that conclusion. Unless there are no non-UK / Ireland models here and all models are the same for Ireland or UK.

JonathonS

watty wrote: »

I can't see that conclusion. Unless there are no non-UK / Ireland models here and all models are the same for Ireland or UK.

All TV models on the Sony Ireland site have a T2 tuner.

The Cush

JonathonS wrote: »

All TV models on the Sony Ireland site have a T2 tuner.

This one doesn't nor this one nor this one etc. etc.

Not all TV models on the Sony Ireland site have a T2 tuner.

STB

sesswhat wrote: »

The official Freeview site can be a bit slow to update and so some of the above may be older models and harder to source. Part of the problem with Freeview HD is getting access to a definitive list of products. The WHICH website does let you filter models they have reviewed by a number of criteria, including Freeview HD. This link shows Samsung, LG, Sony and Toshiba models, along with the date reviewed and UK prices. The Currys UK site allows you to use similar filters.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of either site of course but they may be a good starting point. Everything could subsequently be checked for Saorview approval.

Only the ones I have originally listed have certification for both.

JonathonS

The Cush wrote: »

This one doesn't nor this one nor this one etc. etc.

Not all TV models on the Sony Ireland site have a T2 tuner.

Oops, I nearly got that right, should have said all TVs on the Sony UK site have T2 tuner.

JonathonS

STB wrote: »

Only the ones I have originally listed have certification for both.

Sony have been advertising the HX803 models, which are Saorview approved and have T2 tuner and Digital tick. As are the EX553, EX653, HX753 and HX923 ranges, and the EX723 models as you point out, although the latter are not listed on the Sony Irl site.

EX524 and NX723 models are no longer listed on Sony UK or Sony Ireland sites.

STB

JonathonS wrote: »

Sony have been advertising the HX803 models, which are Saorview approved and have T2 tuner and Digital tick. As are the EX553, EX653, HX753 and HX923 ranges, and the EX723 models as you point out, although the latter are not listed on the Sony Irl site.

EX524 and NX723 models are no longer listed on Sony UK or Sony Ireland sites.

The HX803 range are not Saorview certified. My list a few pages back is only those that have both Saorview and Freeview HD certification.

By the way the list for Sony's Saorview certification for their 2011 and 2012 models is here

JonathonS wrote: »

All TV models on the Sony Ireland site have a T2 tuner.

You cannot assume that because they have a t2 tuner module that the software has been configured and indeed certified for both Saorview and Freeview HD. Only those that pass Teracom and DTG's individual bench tests get certified and approved to use the respective logos.

byte

It's the 3 at the end that signifies a T2 tuner. Eg. an EX440 has MPEG4 tuner, an EX443 is identical but for having MPEG4 T2.

sesswhat

STB wrote: »

Only the ones I have originally listed have certification for both.

Yes. What I'm saying however is that the Freeview site listing is very limited and also out-of-date. It seems to represent more of a sample of what is available (or rather was available 18 months ago) than a resource to check certification. In fact I don't even think the Samsung LE40D550 they feature has got DVB-T2?

As a result, if you are looking for a recent model Freeview HD TV, attempting to check certification against the official Freeview website is futile.

If there is a publicly available, official, up-to-date and exhaustive list of certified Freeview HD TVs anywhere then I'm damned if I can find it.

Freeview seem to be happy to let the consumer be guided by the claims of the manufacturers in identifying the correct equipment in the first instance. On the other hand, Saorview have a more proactive approach by listing everything as it is certified, for now at least.

The sites I linked to are just two examples of places where you can throw the net a bit wider. If you find something you are interested in, you can check Saorview certification, and then you should at least download the manual to check for DVB-T2. If you are in a shop, at least you can check if the packaging has the Freeview HD logo.

Andy454

eirman wrote: »

I have come to the conclusion that it just doesn't make sense to purchase any kind of Saorview equipment, if you have a decent signal from the North (which I have).

I bought a Saorview TV recently and I regret it. It's DVB-T only, so I won't be able to view HD from the north. (DVB-T2 required). I'd rather have 11 or 12 HD channels compared the present 1 (max 4).

I don't care where the Irish channels first appear in my EPG .... I can sort them and/or use favourites.

My next TV or PVR will be purchased in the north and will be DVB-T2 compliant.

Any flaws in my logic?

omg this is brilliant!!! RTE really have gone betamax now, I thought there signals were supposed to be the most modern form of transmission! DVB-T instead of DVB-T2! excellant stuff - well done montrose, soon it will only be their own clique watching their own rubbish...

Delboy5

At the weekend i bought the below FreeviewHD box from Argos in the north.

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/5323218/c_1/1%7Ccategory_root%7CTechnology%7C33006169/c_2/2%7C33006169%7CSet+top+boxes%2C+recorders+and+satelite%7C33008689/c_3/3%7Ccat_33008689%7CSet+top+boxes%7C33015958.htm



It gives me all the Freeview & Saorview stations in one EPG with the option to move the channels to where i want them. Next week i will also get the 4 Uk HD stations....

The box also comes with a USB port which gives you PVR functionality, you can pause live tv or schedule recordings.
You can schedule a recording, leave the box in standby, it will wake up at the designated time, record the program and then go back to standby. I did a test recording last night using a small 16Gb pen drive, 30mins took approx 1Gb. One downside is when recording you cant change channel away from the "recorded" channel. I have to say the EPG isnt the best looking either........

The USB port also functions as a Media player, havent tested out what formats it takes yet........

ardmacha

omg this is brilliant!!! RTE really have gone betamax now, I thought there signals were supposed to be the most modern form of transmission! DVB-T instead of DVB-T2! excellant stuff - well done montrose, soon it will only be their own clique watching their own rubbish...

Andy454, have you a bit of a chip on the shoulder about RTÉ?
You'll be pleased to know that DVB-T2 in in the revised Saorview standard.

STB

Andy454 wrote: »

omg this is brilliant!!! RTE really have gone betamax now, I thought there signals were supposed to be the most modern form of transmission! DVB-T instead of DVB-T2! excellant stuff - well done montrose, soon it will only be their own clique watching their own rubbish...

If you knew what the diffrence was you wouldnt be throwing the word betmax around. Both DVB-T and DVB-T2 support HD. The reason the UK use it is that they can squeeze more into a mux as DVB-T2 is more efficient as a platform for the multitude of stations they broadcast. In Ireland we do not have the luxury of having lots of stations so its not an issue.

eirman

Thanks all the replies to this thread. I have concluded that my original assumption is correct ..... it would be illogical to buy sub-standard DVB-T saorview equipment when NI HD signals are receivable.

If you are in an overspill area, be sure to buy Saorview v2013* equipment (with DBV-T2) or you may, like me, regret it.

* My unofficial terminology

watty

Andy454 wrote: »

omg this is brilliant!!! RTE really have gone betamax now, I thought there signals were supposed to be the most modern form of transmission! DVB-T instead of DVB-T2! excellant stuff - well done montrose, soon it will only be their own clique watching their own rubbish...

You realise that DVB-T2 didn't actually exist when RTENL was rolling out? If it hadn't been for our Government and BAI we might have had ASO in 2010!

DVB-T2 is mandatory part of standard from Jan 2013 and current DVB-T Saorview and post-2012 Saorview boxes / TVs will work in Ireland for very many years.

You know a that apart from DVB-T and DVB-T2 there is MPEG2 and MPEG4 for SD and UK DVB-T is MPEG2 only ("obsolete").

Also as well as DVB flavours (used in Africa, Russia, Australia, NZ, all of Europe, Middle East) there is also FOUR other incompatible Digital Terrestrial Systems?
North America, A lot of South America, China and Japan.

It's not comparable to Betamax/VHS.

Also Satellite uses three systems: DVB-S, DVB-S2 and a US one (though US uses DVB too)

Cable has DVB-c and DVB-c2

These are all different.

Andy454

watty wrote: »

You realise that DVB-T2 didn't actually exist when RTENL was rolling out? If it hadn't been for our Government and BAI we might have had ASO in 2010!


It's not comparable to Betamax/VHS.

QUOTE]

I stand by my analogy, DVB-T2 was concieved as early as 2008, there where even prototype recievers at mediacast even earlier... long before saorview was launched.......- i do recall rte was transmitting a trial dvb-t mpeg 2 service at the time....

Quote from above states that one should be buying a " Saorview v2013* - brilliant - hats off to the saorview people they really do deserve that 130k salary!"

If I recall Watty, this was also discussed at length by yourself in various arguements over why we should adopt mpeg 4 over mpeg 2 - I thought saorview was DVB-T2 - considering the power savings (someone mentioned) could be achieved versus DVB-T!- weren't you the main proponent of going dvb-t2 with mpeg 4 in some long since closed thread.... maybe the good people at saorvew /rtenl should have been paying closer attention to your posts watty....


DVB-T + MPEG4 = Betamax
DVB-T2 + MPEG4 = VHS

Viewers with DVB-T2 receivers will get more channels, better quality recievers, more likely to get better software development with upgrades with new features.... like the people who bought vhs recorders in the 1980's - more movies in VHS, more recording time on a tape, more features (IR remotes!!)

Viewers with DVB-T receivers will be like the people that bought the betamax equipment, limited choice of channels, no future support - for saorview rev 2013!

Brilliant - I'll ring Joe tomorrow!!!!

What should I buy joe, a dvb-t with mpeg 2, a dvb-t with mpeg 4, a dvb-t2 with mpeg 4 or something with mheg9?? saorsat or saorview or freesat and freeview someone help me please joe.... I don't want the telly to go dark on october 24th, mheg5 over...

Come budget day we might have episodes of the shining all over ireland as people cant afford boose and have no tv...


...no tv and no beer make homer go something something....

opr

Problem kinda related to all this that I hope someone can shed some light. TV has a built in DVB-T tunner. At some point in the past it has picked up all the freeview channels at one point or another but never together afaik. It used to pick up all the ITV, Channel 4 freesat without the BBC ones. Currently it is picking up all the BBC channels without the ITV, Channel 4 ones? Anyone tell me what's going on with that?

Opr

Andy454

Almost 4 years ago now... before saorview... Boxer debacle...

******************************************************
28-11-2008, 10:11

watty

Unfortunately DVB-T2 is likely to be the HD standard....

**********************************************************

so in the 4 years we've know about DVB-T2, "industry experts" here have told the public to go out and buy dvb-t recievers with mpeg4 capability aka saorview boxes...

sesswhat

opr wrote: »

Problem kinda related to all this that I hope someone can shed some light. TV has a built in DVB-T tunner. At some point in the past it has picked up all the freeview channels at one point or another but never together afaik. It used to pick up all the ITV, Channel 4 freesat without the BBC ones. Currently it is picking up all the BBC channels without the ITV, Channel 4 ones? Anyone tell me what's going on with that?

Opr

If you are getting your channels from Freeview in NI, try again next week after 24th, when UTV and CH4 join the BBC channels on higher power.

opr

sesswhat wrote: »

If you are getting your channels from Freeview in NI, try again next week after 24th, when UTV and CH4 join the BBC channels on higher power.

Cool, thanks. I am getting it from NI so I presumed it was something like that. The telly is only Mpeg2 compatible so I need to get something to also pick up the Soarview channels. What's my best option? Soarview box or should I just buy something which will pick up freesat HD and is Mpeg4 compatible?

Opr

Andy454

ardmacha wrote: »

Andy454, have you a bit of a chip on the shoulder about RTÉ?
You'll be pleased to know that DVB-T2 in in the revised Saorview standard.

Are people aware that they should purchase a revised Saorview standard box?

pardon me, many people on here shouted people down when they suggested that rte should have continued the mpeg2 service available at the trial that was compatible with 100% of the lcd and plasma tv's sold in the state at that time.

They said DVB-T mpeg 4 was the future of all broadcasting in europe and we should adopt this new standard and get on with it, saorview issued a spec to box manufacturers and sold receivers to DVB-T mpeg4 to beat the band.

Now it turns out the new standard that will actually be DVB-T2 + mpeg4 and people should be buying a saorview box with DVB-T2 compatibility if they want to future proof their set top box - or wish to currently receive hd broadcasts from our nearest neighbour... what a joke.

I can't believe there are "saorview" approved boxes that are not DVB-T2 compatible - will joe soap be entitled to a refund if he discovers his saorview box is not compatible with future saorview broadcasts? considering he demanded a refund from his electrical retailer for the tv he bought in 2008 that he was told worked with the DTT service available at the time?

Electronic recyclers will have fun smushing all these boxes into paste...

We really do live in a banana republic, our nearest neighbour has a tried and trusted broadcasting system, which 100's of thousands of citizens in the state have been recieving for the past 10+ years (wicklow/wexford ondigital subscribers you know who you are!) and our own incumbent broadcaster who is supposed to report to US, the licence fee payer, goes and adopts an obscure version of standards incompatible with the majority of existing equipment - it is a complete farce.

They had mpeg 2 broadcasting during the trial, why the hell couldn't they have kept this standard and then moved to DVB-T2 when standards were finalised inline with the UK - they knew DVB-T2 was coming down the line since 2008! UK have been broadcasting DVB-T2 since 2009!

Good luck to them finding a commercial partner now, the majority of these saorview boxes don't even have CI slots, commercial partners will be limited now in what they can offer based on DVB-T capacity, which means if they do go down the route DVB-T2, which they will, they will once again have to convice customers to upgrade their saorview boxes - really are they having a laugh?

ardmacha

Change the record. RTE adopted an actual standard, whereas the UK is doing its own thing as usual. MPEG2 is obsolete and using it would have required parallel MPEG4 HD channels, which would be a complete waste. In the UK there will be a further "changeover" when they shut down at least some of the SD stuff in a few years to free up bandwidth for HD.

lawhec

When the initial Saorview specification laid down mandating the use of MPEG-4 AVC video of SD & HD over DVB-T in 2008 and with the roll out of the network commencing, DVB-T2 was still at the draft stage. The final standard to be adopted was only settled on in September 2009. By the time there was a "soft launch" of Saorview in October 2010 only the UK and Italy had any public DVB-T2 transmissions, with Sweden and Finland about to launch one, with the SADC declaring it as its preferred option later in the year. It is only within the last 12 months that the ball for international adoption of DVB-T2 has visibly started rolling. It also needs to be remembered that even the DVB organisation initially discouraged countries to adopted DVB-T2 straight from analogue broadcasts instead of DVB-T for whatever reason.

The initial decision for the adoption of DVB-T/MPEG-4 for SD & HD in Ireland was the correct decision then and it still is in hindsight - only if the roll out of the Saorview transmission network was beginning in the summer of 2010 rather than the summer of 2008 would any sense to adopt DVB-T2 be feasible. MPEG-2 was a non-runner in 2008 and it still is; most countries that were launching DVB-T networks around that time were using MPEG-4. Using MPEG4 on a multiplex for both SD and HD services eliminates the need for SD simulcast and the corresponding waste of multiplex space that comes with it, and problem that the UK is currently having to handle.

Many countries to this day including France, Spain, Italy, Norway and New Zealand are using MPEG-4 over DVB-T for HD broadcasts. Ireland is most certainly not alone in the basic points of its DTT standards.

It is not the fault of RTÉ that unscrupulous retailers - particularly those based in the UK - were offloading televisions in the Irish market that couldn't decode MPEG-4 video. There was no need for RTÉ to have its technical hands tied behind its back - the UK D-Book specifications on its own, which continues today with Freeview HD receivers, acts strangely for non-UK originated transmissions. If RTÉNL were to have broadcast with DVB-T MPEG2 there would have been plenty of questions as to why channels could only be accessed from 800 onwards and the time being one hour behind in the summer! The Saorview NorDig specification OTOH is more sympathetic to receiving UK originated transmissions. It's also worth remembering that only a minority of people in the RoI will be able to receive a reliable Freeview signal from N. Ireland or Wales.

The decision for Saorview to adopt an updated set of technical standards from the start of 2013 which includes mandatory DVB-T2 is a can't-lose one for RTÉ's detractors - if it was left until later to add it to a future specification update people would be howling about Ireland failing to catch up and leaving even more receivers 'potentially' redundant. The problem is that what is a minimum specification set for reception can have a lower specification set for transmission.

There is no urgency for the RoI to adopt DVB-T2 at least for Free-To-Air broadcasts as it isn't pressed for spectrum space any more that what it has already chosen. RRC-06 seen plenty of allocations go to Ireland, some have been lost with the decision to clear E61-68 for mobile telephone use but an additional two-three multiplexes could be launched without any problem from most current transmitter sites. Compare this to the UK who are now strapped for spectrum space in the UHF band - they've been able to get away with their DSO into fitting the content of six pre-DSO DVB-T multiplexes into five by having the the 16QAM multiplexes turned into 64QAM with higher transmission powers and gaining one spare multiplex in the process to broadcast using DVB-T2 for HD services. They couldn't have launched HD without T2 on Freeview otherwise. But they have future problems stored up - while in Northern Ireland it's in many people's interests to have Freeview HD equipment to view either cross-border broadcasts or the planned NIMM, the only incentive in most of Britain is to view four HD channels - three of whom are simulcast with existing SD channels and another which part-simulcasts with no exclusive content of its own. The planned launch of 'local TV' multiplexes hasn't technical parameters set in stone, but Ofcom are recommending DVB-T with MPEG2 video and QPSK modulation. Freeview HD has been slow to take off there. The majority of televisions sold in Britain, especially smaller screen (less than 32 inch) ones are still Freeview only, incapable of either DVB-T2 reception or decoding MPEG4 video. It's a price of the UK being an early adopter and there is no way even the commercial multiplex operators can consider converting to DVB-T2 MPEG4 for SD or HD channels for several years yet, especially with limited spectrum now available since they still have no bloody clue about how to allocate channels E31-38 yet! (Why the UK government thought that would be useful for mobile comms in a non-international standard band is puzzling, then again they reallocated the VHF Bands I & III away from broadcasting into trunk radio until DAB came to town - no lessons learned.) At least Saorview doesn't have to worry about the above. Maybe DVB-T2 will be used when 4K or 8K video is being tested, though by that stage terrestrial TV broadcasting could be threatened with redundancy.

There are some elements within RTÉ that have valid criticism to be attached to them - the insistence on continuing with DAB in particular - but the technical standard of Saorview is most certainly not one of them.

The Cush

Andy454 wrote: »

DVB-T2 was concieved as early as 2008, there where even prototype recievers at mediacast even earlier... long before saorview was launched.......- i do recall rte was transmitting a trial dvb-t mpeg 2 service at the time....

The technical conditions for DTT in Ireland were consulted on and published by Comreg in 2007 which set the standard as DVB-T MPEG2 and MPEG4 (In Dec2006 Estonia rolled out the world's first DVB-T/MPEG-4 only DTT network followed by Norway in 2007).

Following the publication of the DTT standard by Comreg the Dept published the min. receiver spec. for DTT in Ireland in Feb2008.

The Depts 2006/08 DTT trial, which tested both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 video decoding, ended in Jul 2008 with the Dept announcing at the end of the trial that only MPEG-4 video decoding would be used.

RTÉNL started DVB-T/MPEG-4 pre-launch engineering test transmissions a few days later on Aug 5th.

By the time DVB-T2 became an official standard in late 2009 13 sites (including all main transmitters) were transmitting DTT to 85-90% of the population

Sponge Bob

rte did the right thing rolling out dvb-t/mpeg4 and had the first licence worked out over 10 years back they would have done the right thing rolling out mpeg2

most of the performance gains in dvb-t2 come from it being mpeg4 and fewer from the better qam

Peter Rhea

Sponge Bob wrote: »

most of the performance gains in dvb-t2 come from it being mpeg4 and fewer from the better qam

Fewer what from the 'better' QAM? Also, MPEG & DVB-anything are completely separate entities, not inherently linked in any way.