Want kids "communed"? Have to go to mass yourself so

smokingman

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/parents-must-attend-masses-before-kids-can-receive-first-holy-communion-568942.html

This is pretty good news if you ask me. Who's really going to bother with the whole thing if they have to actually go themselves. Funny that this little tit-bit was hardly reported though - most of any was on the men in frocks telling people not to spend so much money on their kids day.

kylith

My brother had to do that. Well pissed off he was, but you couln't not commune the child, could you?

Galvasean

Have to agree with Martin here. It's ludicrous how much people are spending on this sham of a ceremony. I do wonder though, how many parents would even bother to put their kids through Communion if the 'keeping up with the Flanderises' angle was stomped out?

Syllabus

had a women in my place needing x, y and z on her car - said she couldnt afford x, y or z, that she was on the dole and waiting on a council house. heard her talking to another customer telling her that she paid 800 for a communion dress for the daughter

totally ridiculous

Galvasean

Syllabus wrote: »

had a women in my place needing x, y and z on her car - said she couldnt afford x, y or z, that she was on the dole and waiting on a council house. heard her talking to another customer telling her that she paid 800 for a communion dress for the daughter

totally ridiculous

Hate to sound like Mitt Romney here but it's no wonder some people are poor!

Lucy8080

well, now,hmmmm,

Some of us here have been involved in a thread regarding the whole communion dress/money thing. We buried it too...a good send off for all.

From my position there was a social element to it...and from others it was a religious imposition.

There was truth in both positions!

This move may be very positive,honest and understanding by B. Martin.

I hope he is not knocked, either within or without, for recognising the reality on the ground.

In one statement he takes monetery pressure off catholics and also saves them from being attacked ( on this issue) if they happen to be serious about their faith.

Who can argue!

everyone wins.

Dades

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I hope he is not knocked, either within or without, for recognising the reality on the ground.

He can't be knocked. What he says makes absolute sense from every perspective!

Personally, I would love this to be enforced. With my kids I've made it clear that I won't stand in the way of the culturally catholic ceremonies my wife wants to put them through, but that I will never, ever take them to mass.

As I'm sure is the intention, this might test the "faith".

Gurgle

This is obviously only intended as a 'study document'.

Knight who says Meh

kylith wrote: »

My brother had to do that. Well pissed off he was, but you couln't not commune the child, could you?

Why not?

Dave!

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

My brother had to do that. Well pissed off he was, but you couln't not commune the child, could you?

Why not?

He was being ironic, or sarcastic or somethin

Has Diarmuid Martin lost his marbles? First he offers Ruairi Quinn a load of schools for his secular indoctrination programme, and now this?! What a guy!

kylith

Knight who says Meh wrote: »

Why not?

Because what would the neighbour's think!

Dave! wrote: »

He was being ironic, or sarcastic or somethin

Yes, I was.

There is a kind of belief amongst some Irish people that, even if they haven't set foot in a church since they made their own confirmation, that there's almost a law that children have to be baptised, communed, and confirmed.

And I'm a she, thank you so very much

Dave!

kylith wrote: »

And I'm a she, thank you so very much

Woah, that just turned my world upside down!

Kept that quiet!

kylith

Dave! wrote: »

Woah, that just turned my world upside down!

Kept that quiet!

I'm not exactly hiding it; I was at the Beers and everything!

MagicMarker

Ninja edit, I know the truth though....

kylith

MagicMarker wrote: »

Ninja edit, I know the truth though....

Me? Yeah, I misread Dave's post. Darn female brain...

Paddycrumlinman

It is ridculious the amount of money spent on the whole communion process and for what? The kids are in it simply for the money. When I was making my communion (Not my choice) it was simply for the money from the family.

Realistically, With the number of people actually going to church decreasing, this is the Catholic Church grasping at straws. They are giving you the impression or perception that the children's best interests are on hand here, where in reality the Church are trying to boost their numbers and guilt trip parents into going so their children can attend their communion.

I always wondered where the idea and the whole giving communion kids money came from? I'm sure it has something to do with bribing the kids into making their communion and confirmation to keep church numbers up. Sure when I was a kid the money aspect of making my communion and confirmation was the only real selling point of making my first communion and confirmation., Other than that, I would have declined and embraced my Atheism at an earlier age. Yes, even at the age of 8 I could tell that Religion and the Catholic Church a bunch of bollix as you could not make up some of the sheight they come out with.

eyescreamcone

The next step should be to do the whole "communion training" thing outside of school hours.
Then the people who really want to play the game will do it and those that are not too bothered...won't bother.
Everybody will be happy.

Except the lazy unbelievers who wan't to do it anyway

miss no stars

I remember being dragged to mass by the parents before my communion cos we all had to attend a certain number of masses. Maybe it was just my area though?

DazMarz

At the back of it, it is all about the money for kids. They hear about it, and because they are too young to understand all the religious-y b.s. that surrounds it, it becomes a material thing.

Girls and boys have an excuse to dress up (although at least the boys and their parents have it easier; you can easily wear the gear again. Girls never wear their communion dresses again), parents have a bit of a party, kid gets loads of money... end of. The religious angle is lost on most.

I distinctly remember when I made my communion in 1997, I was mostly concerned with the money. I was scolded that it was not all about the money, but even then, the scolding was half-hearted. I spent every penny on Star Wars Micro Machines and bases. Epic...

It also seemed that any time when I was a kid that I would mention to other kids who were going to make their communion about all the money they'd get, any adult would scold me about it. When I grew defiant enough to ask "Well, what the hell else is there to it, apart from the money???", the answers were always vague bull about religion and all that. Nobody knew.

It was all well and good to turn it into a frenzy of conspicuous consumption when there was money to burn back in the Celtic Tiger days, but now that the belts are tightened, things have to come down. Parents have to cotton on to the fact that just because Daughter A had a huge bash in 2006 for her communion, does not mean Daughter B can now in 2012. There was no need for it back then, but it is financially burdensome nowadays.

And all for what??? A meaningless religious ceremony that the kids couldn't give a monkey's about (apart from the money) and that the parents turn into a fashion statement.

The sooner all this nonsense dies down and goes extinct, the better.

magicbastarder

column about communion on thejournal.ie:
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/column-i-dont-want-my-son-to-make-his-communion-but-im-worried-618855-Oct2012/

Iwannahurl

A good move by the Archbishop, IMO.

There are real-world consequences for non-believers like me when a large number of people claim to be Catholics for the purpose of gaining whatever advantages might accrue to having that label.

What I am thinking of especially is claiming to be Catholic in order to go to the top of the queue for enrolment in the local Primary (aka "National") School. Many if not most such schools, despite being subsidised by the State in the form of teachers' salaries, have enrolment policies which explicitly prioritise Catholic children. I know of parents who go through the motions of a christening in order to ensure that they are well up the list for a place in the local school, yet have no real interest or involvement in regular Catholic religious observance.

The outcome, in my particular case, was that my child failed to get a place in the local Diocesan school just 800 metres (a ten-minute walk) up the road, and we now have a 3km cycle commute every morning to another school (also Catholic, there being no choice) which requires a significantly greater time commitment as well as having to deal with traffic-choked roads. Meanwhile, some of the local "Catholics" drive the 800 metres to the local school and park on the footpaths and cycle lanes...

Inquitus

Holy Communion in alot of cases is as Hypocritical as it gets, people who only enter a Church for births, deaths and marriages queuing up to go to mass to pretend they are good Catholics, so little Johnny or Rita can have their day in the Sun (or rain most likely).

My wife despite not having being in a church for nigh on 2 years is insisting our Daughter gets communed, she also marked us down on the census as Catholic....but thats a rant for another day.

Obliq

My eldest was the first in the history of the tiny local school that both my boys went to not to do holy communion. The school was fine with it and suggested that he joined in with the choir and a little play with sheep in it (can't remember what it was about really). He of course found it really unfair that all the other kids got SO MUCH money (even at the school gates from other parents - although in fairness, some parents even included him, which was nice).

In compensation, I took him on a day out as well and gave him €20, which floored him completely, he'd never seen so much money in his hand. I did the same for my youngest, but he didn't want to be in the choir or the play.

The huge issue I have is the amount of time they had to sit around in class while the other kids were learning their lines for the day. My boys were allowed read, do homework or go on the computer, which was fine, but I noticed that during both the years when they were each in a communion year/confirmation year, homework became a big problem. At the beginning of the year, the homework was loaded on, as the teachers tried to fly through the curriculum and not fall behind because of the extra religion, and at the end, huge chunks of textbooks had not been covered in each subject (except maths and irish - they were kept up with).

I know two teachers (both practicing Catholics) who would give anything to feel they could stand up in the board meetings or the INTO and say to parents/other teachers that communion and confirmation affects the children in terms of work load, and the curriculum suffers because of it. What stops them speaking out? The Catholic Church is their employer.

Tombo2001

I have to say this could be a good get out clause for a lot of us parents to avoid the expense of the confirmation/ communion etc....

They'll still have other religious ceremonies like Santa Claus and Easter Eggs to look forward to.

Tombo2001

Obliq wrote: »

I know two teachers (both practicing Catholics) who would give anything to feel they could stand up in the board meetings or the INTO and say to parents/other teachers that communion and confirmation affects the children in terms of work load, and the curriculum suffers because of it. What stops them speaking out? The Catholic Church is their employer.

The sad thing is, the Catholic Church is not their employer, the State is.

But the State has 'outsourced' the management of our primary schools to the church.......because they do such a top drawer job of it, dontcha know.

Its ridiculous that parents/kids are being put in this position (ie like your kids) and shows very clearly why Educate Togethers have a waiting list from here to Antartica.

Beruthiel

How would you police this?
Would you be given an attendance card which would be stamped by the priest on the days you turn up?

Tombo2001

Iwannahurl wrote: »

A good move by the Archbishop, IMO.

There are real-world consequences for non-believers like me when a large number of people claim to be Catholics for the purpose of gaining whatever advantages might accrue to having that label.

What I am thinking of especially is claiming to be Catholic in order to go to the top of the queue for enrolment in the local Primary (aka "National") School. Many if not most such schools, despite being subsidised by the State in the form of teachers' salaries, have enrolment policies which explicitly prioritise Catholic children. I know of parents who go through the motions of a christening in order to ensure that they are well up the list for a place in the local school, yet have no real interest or involvement in regular Catholic religious observance.

The outcome, in my particular case, was that my child failed to get a place in the local Diocesan school just 800 metres (a ten-minute walk) up the road, and we now have a 3km cycle commute every morning to another school (also Catholic, there being no choice) which requires a significantly greater time commitment as well as having to deal with traffic-choked roads. Meanwhile, some of the local "Catholics" drive the 800 metres to the local school and park on the footpaths and cycle lanes...

......would you do the same again?

On a related subject, it is arguably a positive discrimination towards our Eastern European communities, whose children are more likely to be catholic than the Irish kids. Sorry for dragging up a hornets nest; but hypothetically if you had lived in say Clontarf all your life, and your Polish neighbours who moved in 6 months see their kid being given a higher priority than your kid on the local schools waiting list because your kid wasnt baptised..........its not the neighbours fault, but its a really f**ked up situation.

krudler

Beruthiel wrote: »

How would you police this?
Would you be given an attendance card which would be stamped by the priest on the days you turn up?

like a Starbucks card, every 10th communion wafer gets you a free one.

Obliq

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The sad thing is, the Catholic Church is not their employer, the State is.

But the State has 'outsourced' the management of our primary schools to the church.......because they do such a top drawer job of it, dontcha know.

Its ridiculous that parents/kids are being put in this position (ie like your kids) and shows very clearly why Educate Togethers have a waiting list from here to Antartica.

Makes no difference that the State is the official employer - the local priest sits on the board, is entitled to appoint at least two board members (even if they have nothing to do with the school) and has a say in who is hired or moved (in the case at least, of SNA's and learning support teachers).

The non denominational school nearby (at least 12miles away) is a Steiner school. I preferred my kids to just ignore the Catholic element of the N.S. than to be learning a different curriculum. Yeah, not much choice for us Atheists in terms of education. I remember being sent to a catholic and a protestant primary and mumbling through the prayers so I didn't look like an alien - still goes on today, sigh

pwurple

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The sad thing is, the Catholic Church is not their employer, the State is.

But the State has 'outsourced' the management of our primary schools to the church.......because they do such a top drawer job of it, dontcha know.

Its ridiculous that parents/kids are being put in this position (ie like your kids) and shows very clearly why Educate Togethers have a waiting list from here to Antartica.

Ireland is a funny fish with education. Our schools are entirely privately owned, but with publicly funded for day to day costs. You are implying that the state somehow gave control over, by 'outsourcing', but it was the other way around. An entirely church based system originally has come more under the control of the state over the years. They are still the church's buildings, paid for by the local parish.

The educate together schools operate under the same principle. Private buildings (an NGO), with publicly funded teachers etc. As far as I know there is no barrier to creating more of these whatsoever.

Obliq

pwurple wrote: »

As far as I know there is no barrier to creating more of these whatsoever.

Demand is the barrier. Since my boys, there's only been 2 others who didn't do religion. A larger number in the next village but not enough to pay for a school building. Cities, yes....don't see the problem or why there aren't more of them.

Galvasean

DazMarz wrote: »

I spent every penny on Star Wars Micro Machines and bases. Epic...

Sounds like we had our communion around the same time :cool:

Beruthiel wrote: »

How would you police this?
Would you be given an attendance card which would be stamped by the priest on the days you turn up?

krudler wrote: »

like a Starbucks card, every 10th communion wafer gets you a free one.

Card Carrying Catholics?

Tombo2001

pwurple wrote: »

Private buildings (an NGO), with publicly funded teachers etc. As far as I know there is no barrier to creating more of these whatsoever.

I cant speak in general terms, but I'm pretty sure my local Educate Together building was funded by the state.

Iwannahurl

Tombo2001 wrote: »

......would you do the same again?

On a related subject, it is arguably a positive discrimination towards our Eastern European communities, whose children are more likely to be catholic than the Irish kids. Sorry for dragging up a hornets nest; but hypothetically if you had lived in say Clontarf all your life, and your Polish neighbours who moved in 6 months see their kid being given a higher priority than your kid on the local schools waiting list because your kid wasnt baptised..........its not the neighbours fault, but its a really f**ked up situation.

It's a fecked up situation for sure, but I will not baptise his younger sibling just to get a place. In any case, we can probably now avail of the sibling priority part of the enrolment policy, if there is such a clause.

mikhail

Beruthiel wrote: »

How would you police this?
Would you be given an attendance card which would be stamped by the priest on the days you turn up?

It's probably impossible in bigger parishes, but in a village, people know who does and doesn't go to mass.

Obliq

mikhail wrote: »

It's probably impossible in bigger parishes, but in a village, people know who does and doesn't go to mass.

Yes, and the same people also know that those who DO go to mass, paid for the new church roof (literally paid - envelopes were posted to every house in the parish), and those that don't/do combined, paid for the refurbishment of the school.
I'd say the church are barking up the wrong tree here in the shticks (boom boom!) anyway, when they start looking for more money.
A bit off thread, sorry.

Liamario

A few things strike me with this. Firstly, prima facia- I've no issues.

• How are they going to keep track of those attending or not.
• How are they going to control parents' spending on outfits.
• This comes across as a method to get more attendance, as parents will feel obliged to attend to ensure that their child gets their communion (and also that the child learns to be a sheep and do what everyone else does)
• This could easily back-fire and reduce the attendance figures even more.

robindch

Liamario wrote: »

How are they going to keep track of those attending or not.

Hand out receipts at communion?

Liamario

robindch wrote: »

Hand out receipts at communion?

Better still, a book that you can fill will gold stars!

miss no stars

When I worked in the USA there was a kid at the summer camp I was working in who was due to make her confirmation the following year (catholic). The church only allowed her to miss mass 3 times per year so a staff member had to bring her twice to the local catholic church. As proof of attendance she kept the little pamphlet thingy they give out that has the readings for the day on it with the date at the top. Presumably it'd be easy enough to keep a book at the back of the church that the family sign on their way out (priest watching observing would quickly enough get to know who's who) if the kid is in the communion/confirmation year and then something like the bring back a pamphlet system if you've been out of town and still made it to mass. Really don't see how it would be difficult to implement.

Liamario

miss no stars wrote: »

When I worked in the USA there was a kid at the summer camp I was working in who was due to make her confirmation the following year (catholic). The church only allowed her to miss mass 3 times per year so a staff member had to bring her twice to the local catholic church. As proof of attendance she kept the little pamphlet thingy they give out that has the readings for the day on it with the date at the top. Presumably it'd be easy enough to keep a book at the back of the church that the family sign on their way out (priest watching observing would quickly enough get to know who's who) if the kid is in the communion/confirmation year and then something like the bring back a pamphlet system if you've been out of town and still made it to mass. Really don't see how it would be difficult to implement.

Obviously not a problem for those who attend mass. But, I think the cultural catholics are going to find it difficult to attend mass so regularly.

iguana

Beruthiel wrote: »

How would you police this?
Would you be given an attendance card which would be stamped by the priest on the days you turn up?

I know of parishes where there was a short 10-15 min, pre-mass communion preparation session in the church on the seats at the front. The parents and children are expected to be at that, the priest comes out and talks about the communion and basically takes attendance. Then those families have to stay for the mass as they are sitting right up front, the church is filling up for mass before this session is over and the priest will notice if they leave.

DazMarz

Other posters have brought this up... and I only now realised it and it totally pisses me off.

The amount of school time that is wasted preparing for this crap. Instead of actually learning, kids are wasting time preparing for these meaningless ceremonies. I remember in my school, one of my best friends was Protestant and he was literally sent out of the class while the rest of us learnt our lines!!! Didn't mean much to me back then, but now that I think back... what a crock.

I loved my primary school; it was a good, decent school. But there is too much emphasis on religion in it. And for kids who weren't Catholic (like my friend) they get excluded.

First Communion/Confirmation saps too much time from education. Schools should be totally secular, and if parents want their kids confirmed/communed, they have to sort it themselves and schools be left totally out of it. It's about damn time that the Department of Education keep the Roman Catholic Church out of schools. (<INSERT PAEDOPHILE JOKE HERE>)

equivariant

Today's IT letters page

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224324835647

Obliq

equivariant wrote: »

Today's IT letters page

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224324835647

Excellent letter:-)

doctoremma

I must have been naughty, I didn't get any money for my communion.

Liamario

doctoremma wrote: »

I must have been naughty, I didn't get any money for my communion.

YOU DIDN'T GET ANY MONEY!!!
What's the point in going then?? You didn't think your soul was going to be saved did you?

iguana

doctoremma wrote: »

I must have been naughty, I didn't get any money for my communion.

Did you make your communion in the UK? Giving money isn't really the done thing over here.

Penn

doctoremma wrote: »

I must have been naughty, I didn't get any money for my communion.

Wow. Maybe First Communion is a religious event where you're from, rather than the social version we have here...

MagicMarker

iguana wrote: »

Did you make your communion in the UK? Giving money isn't really the done thing over here.

I did mine in the UK, I think I got about 50 quid and a Big Mac Meal. :cool:

doctoremma

iguana wrote: »

Did you make your communion in the UK? Giving money isn't really the done thing over here.

Yeah. Also, it was a shotgun communion, done in haste to get me into a good school.

Although it was attended by my Irish Nanny - would have thought she'd have chucked me a few quid.