22000 clearance trials across border

Jamie2k9

According to RUI 22002 is apparently doing clearance trails in Belfast.

IMO its a little to late. With the EGV starting on all services soon then failure rates should drop and be in line with Cork services. Also having only 6 sets allowed operate to Belfast will be hard to manage to keep them in Connolly area all the time. Only possitive could the the morning 2900 from Newary could be moved to a 22000 once the right sets are around. I just see little benefit and most lightly Sligo and Rosslare services will suffer if a failure happens on Belfast line and a 22000 goes to the rescue.

Millem

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

According to RUI 22002 is apparently doing clearance trails in Belfast.

IMO its a little to late. With the EGV starting on all services soon then failure rates should drop and be in line with Cork services. Also having only 6 sets allowed operate to Belfast will be hard to manage to keep them in Connolly area all the time. Only possitive could the the morning 2900 from Newary could be moved to a 22000 once the right sets are around. I just see little benefit and most lightly Sligo and Rosslare services will suffer if a failure happens on Belfast line and a 22000 goes to the rescue.

Better late than never I suppose ! It's mad to think that the first units arrived in 2007, and it has taken them 5 years to get to this stage.

bazza1

Trialrun from Dundalk to Belfast 08.00hrs

ard_mhacha

22302 at Portadown

dowlingm

remember there are three 22K sets still to be put in service which will allow a bit more flexibility. The main goal should be no more 29Ks north of the border - Newry in the morning and failure replacement - and go from there. The 2013 timetable certainly shows no sign of ambition, and indeed the possibility of a DD refit may put 2 sets into the main rotation with no gain in services at all (probably whichever one has the least First custom to lose).

Not only are the 22Ks faster than the 29s but they should be able to operate in full conformance with NIR rules, not merely under waiver. There would also be the possibility of Ulster-Connacht or Ulster-Munster specials since the 22001-6 sets would be "go anywhere" as long as suitably route qualified crews were on hand.

That said, what the f*** took so long? Getting the first six sets TPWSed but waiting until the very last ones arrive before doing so much as a route trial is fruity as a nut cake.

JeffK88

Just wondering what is the difference between the railways up north from down here that clearance trials are required ? Also are these three sets designed especially for operations up north and why can't any of the other sets operate on NIR railways? I know may seem like silly questions but I always thought the railways are practically identical north and south considering they are on the same island. cheers

ard_mhacha

JeffK88 wrote: »

Just wondering what is the difference between the railways up north from down here that clearance trials are required ? Also are these three sets designed especially for operations up north and why can't any of the other sets operate on NIR railways? I know may seem like silly questions but I always thought the railways are practically identical north and south considering they are on the same island. cheers

Any class of train must be sent on a clearance trial before it is permitted to enter service on a given route.

A number of 22000 units have been fitted with Automatic Warning System (AWS), Train Protection and Warning System (TPWS) and Translink radio to enable them to operate on the Translink rail network. Alternative arrangements can be made for trains which do not have these systems installed, involving reduction in speed, appointment of a second man and use of a portable Translink radio.

Whereas Translink installed the above systems, Iarnród Éireann use Continuous Automatic Warning System (CAWS) and a different type of train radio (installed on six Translink class 3000 railcars), meaning that apart from Enterprise stock, only a small number trains belonging to either can work unrestricted on the other's network.

JeffK88

Ahh i see makes sense. cheers for that.

gordy712

Sunday 30.9.12 Irish Rail railcar 22202 done a clearance run from Dundalk to Belfast York Road Depot & return to Dundalk via Great Victoria Street Station Belfast.This was the first time a 22000 has been up to Northern Ireland since they were introduced into service with Irish Rail in 2007.
Link to pics of the train at Portadown & Lisburn
http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/25301801_BkHfb2#!i=2121786439&k=HHpnh92

Jamie2k9

remember there are three 22K sets still to be put in service which will allow a bit more flexibility

Sets 10, 11 whats the other one?

dowlingm

59

Iolaire

JeffK88 wrote: »

Ahh i see makes sense. cheers for that.

That's the last thing it does! A completely un-integrated rail system. Granted, two different legislatures, but one great big mess.

dowlingm

If only we had done an island-wide ERTMS install when the money was there.

I would hope that the 22s go a bit further abroad than GVS/Central during the clearance trials to bank some possibilities the existing 201/DDs just can't do. For example, while it looks like it's a few years before the R&A give the go for an Open at Royal Portrush, when it does happen the specials from Dublin should run direct via Knockmore Junction to Portrush rather than trying to accommodate everyone on what will likely be slammed services out of Belfast City Centre. Pathing will be tight north of Antrim regardless but every little helps you'd think.

At present you don't see much demand for south to north special service in part because of the lack of consistent draws equivalent to Croke Park and Lansdowne Road up there, but with better stock than 29s available to do it and to do so complying more closely to NIR operating rules maybe it will be a growth area.

dowlingm

dowlingm wrote: »

I would hope that the 22s go a bit further abroad than GVS/Central during the clearance trials to bank some possibilities the existing 201/DDs just can't do.

Have the 29s been cleared beyond York Road?

dowlingm

Karsini wrote: »

Have the 29s been cleared beyond York Road?

Can't see why they would be - I think their running rights are predicated on covering broken Enterprises only. RUI seemed to think IE were being cheeky doing what was after all a scheduled service ex Newry in the mornings with 29s.

Losty or anyone else confirm?

Losty Dublin

I didn't hear anything to say that they were passed beyond Central. Certainly, no NIR guards are trained on them so competent crews to run them would be hen's teeth so the chances of it happening are low. Ditto for Irish rail crews over NIR irons beyond Belfast.

There isn't any sense in running a train via Knockmore Junction; it's a trailing junction at Lisburn so it requires a cab change. It would be as quick to head via Belfast as line is a little faster.

Losty Dublin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I didn't hear anything to say that they were passed beyond Central. Certainly, no NIR guards are trained on them so competent crews to run them would be hen's teeth so the chances of it happening are low. Ditto for Irish rail crews over NIR irons beyond Belfast.

They probably aren't, considering that they really shouldn't be going north of the border in the first place as a result of having no TPWS.

Losty Dublin

Karsini wrote: »

They probably aren't, considering that they really shouldn't be going north of the border in the first place as a result of having no TPWS.

They actually don't need TPWS to run to Newry as the signals in the area aren't fitted to work with it; any further north and it is required for normal speed travel. The AWS is however in place and for that reason the 29000's are limited to 40PMH if and when they cross the border.

ard_mhacha

Karsini wrote: »

Have the 29s been cleared beyond York Road?

Yes. They are cleared for Belfast Central to Antrim via Templepatrick and Antrim to Lisburn via Crumlin.

Victor

ard_mhacha wrote: »

Yes. They are cleared for Belfast Central to Antrim via Templepatrick and Antrim to Lisburn via Crumlin.

I wonder if that was done in case there was a blockage between Lisburn and Belfast.

ard_mhacha

Victor wrote: »

ard_mhacha wrote: »

Yes. They are cleared for Belfast Central to Antrim via Templepatrick and Antrim to Lisburn via Crumlin.

I wonder if that was done in case there was a blockage between Lisburn and Belfast.

That's exactly why.

shamwari

I can't see that morning 29k set ex Newry being replaced by a 22k. That particular diagram is probably the busiest comutter service on the Northern, and discarding the current 8 car set in favour of a 6 car 22k is an instant reduction in capacity that cannot be afforded.

By the way, has anyone actually asked why that particular morning service is commencing in Newry??

dowlingm

shamwari wrote: »

I can't see that morning 29k set ex Newry being replaced by a 22k. That particular diagram is probably the busiest comutter service on the Northern, and discarding the current 8 car set in favour of a 6 car 22k is an instant reduction in capacity that cannot be afforded.

By the way, has anyone actually asked why that particular morning service is commencing in Newry??

Now that Leo has withheld the 36 mill the resulting fare increase will right-size the capacity to the train. :rolleyes:

As for the Newry service, it's a North-South body request of some sort. The train departs 0645, the NIR service to Central 0650. Naturally the train deadheads north rather than carrying passengers from Drogheda/Dundalk (not sure where that 29 is stabled) who might usefully join the aforementioned 0650 to Central.

LXFlyer

I don't think that was the reason Shamwari was alluding to....

dowlingm

oh I think I remember now... a certain individual who works for said company?

ard_mhacha

shamwari wrote: »

I can't see that morning 29k set ex Newry being replaced by a 22k. That particular diagram is probably the busiest comutter service on the Northern, and discarding the current 8 car set in favour of a 6 car 22k is an instant reduction in capacity that cannot be afforded.

By the way, has anyone actually asked why that particular morning service is commencing in Newry??

It was agreed at the North-South ministerial council.

That train stables in Dundalk at night and operates empty diesel to Newry with a Dundalk driver and guard. Due to the track arrangement at Dundalk, it stables in the Loop road, removing the need to shunt from the yard in the morning to get onto the Down line to go to Newry. It runs out over the Craigmore viaduct at Newry to get onto the up road due to the track arrangement there. That is why it doesn't carry any passengers.

The 0615 Portadown to Newry connects with it, so there is a service from Portadown to Dublin before the first up Enterprise.

LXFlyer

Ard Mhaca, the question was asked somewhat in jest I suspect for exactly the reason dowlingm posted in his second answer.

shamwari

Let's put it this way.

IE started a train from Newry many moons ago. Demand never matierialised in sustainable quantities and the service was ditched.

Following whatever "politicking" went on behind the scenes, the same service has been resurrected and demand is - allegedly - still below sustainable levels. I understand that around a dozen a day board at Newry. If this is so, why is this service being maintained on what is arguably the busiest commuter train on the Northern??

dowlingm

I think changing the equipment to a 22K and having it depart ex Drogheda Depot in service 0550 arriving ~0630 should be tried, with an ultimate aim of departing ex Connolly approx 0520 arriving ~0630.

Not sure I understand what the arrangement is at Newry but surely it can't be much more bizarre than what goes on at Ballyb to get on the branch from Dublin! A connection of this sort would bring the first arrival in Belfast from 0945 back to 0804 which would surely be useful to a few people.

Yes it would have an impact on suburban but having a 90mph set operating, timetabled for 18mins Newry-Dundalk rather than the current 23mins for example, would allow a bit of slot shuffling, with the current 0700 ex Dundalk perhaps being the Newry service rather than the current 0710. This would require the Newry departure to come back 5 mins but would result in an 18 minute earlier arrival in Connolly, at least. Unfortunately I didn't hang onto a copy of the 2013 proposed timetable so I'm not sure if those timings still hold.

Hungerford

dowlingm wrote: »

Not sure I understand what the arrangement is at Newry but surely it can't be much more bizarre than what goes on at Ballyb to get on the branch from Dublin!

The simple version is: it has to go through the station and reverse so it can get onto the Southbound line. I presume there are no crossovers at the South end of Newry station otherwise it would be a pointless exercise.

Your worst nightmare

I'll be civil in this post - Yes there is a crossover at the south end. However the 0615 x Portadown has a tight turnaround it would therefore not be possible to use this method and have the NIR Local leave on time if thus was carried out

dowlingm

Bing has good overhead imagery. The train could not cross to the other platform while on the southern approach. The northern switch is quite a way from the platform. Since both trains terminate, could both trains not run wrong road and then switch tracks on the way out?

flazio

dowlingm wrote: »

Bing has good overhead imagery. The train could not cross to the other platform while on the southern approach. The northern switch is quite a way from the platform. Since both trains terminate, could both trains not run wrong road and then switch tracks on the way out?

Not sure if its a rights issue, but I can't see anything on the bing map.
Google maps is ok though.

Losty Dublin

dowlingm wrote: »

Bing has good overhead imagery. The train could not cross to the other platform while on the southern approach. The northern switch is quite a way from the platform. Since both trains terminate, could both trains not run wrong road and then switch tracks on the way out?

Wrong way working is only there in case of emergency; a failed train or blockage on the line or that. You also block up both up and down sections in and out of Newry; this may impede train movements running afterwards. This is assuming that wrong way signaling is fitted in and around the Newry area.

There isn't any gain in running a 22000 over a 29000 given the limited speed limit that has been set cross border; Shamwari also mentioned the capacity benefits of a 29 over a 22 for what is a suburban run that's been gerrymandered.

dowlingm

Losty - do those speed restrictions apply to Enterprise? I was positing a consist based of 2 x 22001-06 sets running at Enterprise speeds.

Trying another Bing link zoomed in further.

shamwari

Losty Dublin wrote: »

This is assuming that wrong way signaling is fitted in and around the Newry area.

It is on approaches to Newry station, presumably for run-around and switch around a set for return.

ard_mhacha

dowlingm wrote: »

Losty - do those speed restrictions apply to Enterprise? I was positing a consist based of 2 x 22001-06 sets running at Enterprise speeds.

Trying another Bing link zoomed in further.

No. They have the required equipment to run on Translink at line speed.

Losty Dublin

shamwari wrote: »

It is on approaches to Newry station, presumably for run-around and switch around a set for return.

That is the case, good man; I should have stressed it better that it's for station confines to allow shunting, turning or the very occasional wrong platform stops if required

Road12

despite the 22s being passed for the north i see playfair has the 29s down for working to belfast 2nite on the 4 50 off dub!

http://chrisplayfair.smugmug.com/Travel/2012-Photos/October-2012/25810704_R7QTHS#!i=2167318295&k=qvF37Db

Jamie2k9

despite the 22s being passed for the north i see playfair has the 29s down for working to belfast 2nite on the 4 50 off dub!

http://chrisplayfair.smugmug.com/Tra...8295&k=qvF37Db

Are 22 that don't have the correct equipment allowed into NI and would say finding a 6 car set in Connolly doing nothing in the evening isn't easy to do.

Jamie2k9

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Are 22 that don't have the correct equipment allowed into NI and would say finding a 6 car set in Connolly doing nothing in the evening isn't easy to do.

They would be allowed but at a restricted speed, I'm sure.

Jamie2k9

They would be allowed but at a restricted speed, I'm sure.

Then would imagine it was set availablity at rush hour and possibly if the train was being operated by NI drivers they may all not be trained for 22 yet.

dowlingm

If more than 3 x 6 car consists are required to ensure availability then IE should fit more sets out rather than faffing around with reduced speed service which undermines perception of rail as competitive with road.

Road12 - there have been trials but surely there will have to be several training runs before 22s will be seen in service?

Road12

Not necessarily. Once a train is gauged for a route (in which case the 22s have) they can operate after that on any service should this be planned or a substitute for the Enterprise. No need for countless trips wasting fuel.

goingnowhere

Its gauged but that doesn't mean the TPWS/AWS and NIR train radio have been commissioned and tested.

Just because it didn't hit anything doesn't mean its fits

Losty Dublin

Road12 wrote: »

Not necessarily. Once a train is gauged for a route (in which case the 22s have) they can operate after that on any service should this be planned or a substitute for the Enterprise. No need for countless trips wasting fuel.

That is not the case. Any mainline train operating in the UK legally requires TPWS kits to be fitted and passed before it is allowed to be trialed, passed fiit for for traffic and allowed to operate in service. . In a few circumstances trains may operate without TPWS but these relate to emergency circumstances, trials and under restrictions. This is regardless of the issue of staff training for NIR staff to operate the 22000s is taken into account

Similarly, restrictions applies to NIR stock which requires CAWS kits to be fitted for full service running along with pre testing and staff training where applicable.

Victor

Losty Dublin wrote: »

This is regardless of the issue of staff training for NIR staff to operate the 22000s is taken into account

Under what circumstances would NIR staff be operating a 22000?

Losty Dublin

Victor wrote: »

Under what circumstances would NIR staff be operating a 22000?

As it stands now, a 22000 can only be driven by an IR driver and a C3k or C4K by an NIR driver. In the event of a failure, it currently limits a home crew to work a relief or replacement train at either end.

Losty Dublin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

As it stands now, a 22000 can only be driven by an IR driver and a C3k or C4K by an NIR driver. In the event of a failure, it currently limits a home crew to work a relief or replacement train at either end.

I'd say that an advantage in the pre-DD era was that the 071s and 111s were virtually identical, so there shouldn't have been anything stopping NIR drivers from driving 071s and vice versa.

CaptainFreedom

Karsini wrote: »

I'd say that an advantage in the pre-DD era was that the 071s and 111s were virtually identical, so there shouldn't have been anything stopping NIR drivers from driving 071s and vice versa.

That is still the case, but the ever expanding h+s crap means the driver would now need knowledge of TPWS and CAWS, or at least have a pilotman on board

goingnowhere

But the driver couldn't go cross border unless he/she knew the line, they would have training to TPWS and AWS

Thankfully the NIR rule book is the same rule book as IE