Class A drugs: Criminalise completely or decriminalise completely??

Neewbie_noob

Portugal has taken steps to fully decriminalise small quantities of heroin and cocaine for personal use without punishment.

It is still highly illegal in Ireland.

Is decriminalisation and full legislation good? I mean selling it in shops? This will generate revenue and even draw drug tourists.

On the other hand, addiction will still be an issue and people will still rob to fund it, and we don't want that kind of people coming to Ireland for drug tourism.

So the great people of After Hours. Which would you opt for? Compete legalisation? Or imposing the death sentence like Singapore? (if you had to choose between the two).

Tombi!

Legalize heroin?
I can understand hash.
But heroin?

Neewbie_noob

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Legalize heroin?
I can understand hash.
But heroin?

Just for the record I am in favour of complete criminalisation Singapore_Style.

Tombi!

Neewbie_noob wrote: »

Just for the record I am in favour of complete criminalisation Singapore_Style.

Singapore Style? What?

im invisible

do we have an A, B, C, classification system in ireland?

Decriminalise.

The problems of drugs for the vast majority of the population is the criminality that is associated with it: both the gangland crimes and the petty muggings and break-ins by junkies.

However decriminalisation shouldn't mean open sale - rather that addicts or others can obtain drugs at a central controlled source at a reasonable cost.

Simply decriminalising posession without authorising supply will still leave the entire business in the hands of the criminal gangs.

Perhaps the tobacco companies could be persuaded to supply (not market) some of the B drugs. I'm serious, they do have the skills needed.

Where To

im invisible wrote: »

do we have an A, B, C, classification system in ireland?

There is for washing machines and dishwashers.

Madam_X

Decriminalised and highly controlled.

df1985

Im just back from ibiza....so right now I literally never want to see the bastards again!

Usually id be for decriminalising small amounts but not heroin. Not even sure about cocaine tbh. small amounts of mdma yes, marijuana fine.


......anyone any valium

mikom

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Singapore Style? What?

You know Singapore Style...... like the caning of 18-year-olds and having a death penalty on non-violent crimes.
Lovely spot........

The Beast of Bodmin

Criminalize A class?

Why would anyone want to criminalize the best drugs?

Chuck Stone

Decriminalising possession is a no-brainer.

Indeed, making criminals out of people for consuming drugs is incredibly cuntish behaviour.

Drugs should be legalised and highly regulated. Prohibition is an expensive and abusive farce that creates privilege for some.

Jimoslimos

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Legalize heroin?
I can understand hash.
But heroin?

Heroin isn't as dangerous as popularly made out to be. Most of its deleterious effects are as a result of its illegality. Sharing needles, poor quality contaminated drug, etc.

Tombi!

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Heroin isn't as dangerous as popularly made out to be. Most of its deleterious effects are as a result of its illegality. Sharing needles, poor quality contaminated drug, etc.

But won't there still be an illegal trade like that?

bedrock#1

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

But won't there still be an illegal trade like that?

Why??

If it's cheaper and safer elsewhere ..... Would you buy a bottle of moon-shine for 40 euro when you can get Jameson in the shop for 25????

Slurryface

Gotta be Sinapore style, they take no shít there, low crime rates, low anti-social behaviour rates. Got to be a winner.

speedboatchase

Decriminilisation for me, as long as we tax the hell out of it.

gobnaitolunacy

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Singapore Style? What?

Noodles.

MajesticDonkey

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Noodles.

Koka FTW.

ScumLord

I don't agree with decriminalisation, I don't see what it fixes other than keeping addicts and recreational users out of overcrowded jails. While that's an improvement it doesn't stop organised crime. Let people try drugs in a controlled manor, if addiction becomes a problem for any of those people it's much more cost effective to deal with those addictions than it is to combat highly funded, organised and ruthless criminal gangs.

mikom

Slurryface wrote: »

Gotta be Sinapore style, they take no shít there, low crime rates, low anti-social behaviour rates. Got to be a winner.

A "fine" state if you would prefer less freedoms........ and by fine I mean the ones they will slap you with as quick as look at you.

Jay-walking........ fine...... smoking in wrong area............fine........chewing gum.......fine....... failing to flush a public toilet after use.........fine.......... eating/drinking in trains/buses or on platforms.......... fine....... possession of pornography..........fine........unnatural sex (Homosexuality is expressly forbidden.)........fine.

The mantra is work a lot and keep your head down.
I hope you like a "sin tax" on alcoholic beverages as well.

Heavy fines of S$1,000 are dealt out to offenders who violate a long list of Singaporean laws. This US$680 penalty applies to:

• Smoking in public places
• The sale of cigarettes to minors (under age 18)
• The sale or possession of chewing of gum
• Vandalism
• Spitting
• Littering
• Urinating in elevators
• Feeding the pigeons

Other punishable offenses include:

• Jaywalking—US$68
• Possession of firecrackers—caning
• Eating or drinking in the subway—US$340
• Not flushing the toilet—US$100
• The Possession or trafficking of >20 grams of drugs—death

http://travelogue.travelvice.com/singapore/the-fine-city-of-singapore/

TPD

Another vote for legalisation and strict regulation. The strictness of the regulation should vary depending on the class of the drug.

martomcg

mikom wrote: »

A "fine" state if you would prefer less freedoms........ and by fine I mean the ones they will slap you with as quick as look at you.

Jay-walking........ fine...... smoking in wrong area............fine........chewing gum.......fine....... failing to flush a public toilet after use.........fine.......... eating/drinking in trains/buses or on platforms.......... fine....... possession of pornography..........fine........unnatural sex (Homosexuality is expressly forbidden.)........fine.

The mantra is work a lot and keep your head down.
I hope you like a "sin tax" on alcoholic beverages as well.

While the list is extreme in some cases. Most of it is behavior that should be punished and yet in Ireland is not.

Take the following out of the list and i see nothing wrong with it:

• Smoking in public places
• The sale of cigarettes to minors (under age 18)
• The sale or possession of chewing of gum
• Vandalism
• Spitting
• Littering
• Urinating in elevators
• Feeding the pigeons

Other punishable offenses include:

• Jaywalking—US$68
• Possession of firecrackers—caning
• Eating or drinking in the subway—US$340
• Not flushing the toilet—US$100
• The Possession or trafficking of >20 grams of drugs—death

Also I would be in favor of decriminalization of certain Class C's and also for small quantities for personal use of Class A's but to completely decriminalize/tax heroin/coke - definitely not.

Linoge

Decriminalising small amounts is not about dealing with drug dealers or getting with the times. Its purely to free up police time that they dont have to arrest you after a body search finds a gram. Would be waste of court time too.

Coke is already legal in small quatities in Peru and Columbia, so Class A being decriminalised isn't something entirely new.

Linoge

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Heroin isn't as dangerous as popularly made out to be. Most of its deleterious effects are as a result of its illegality. Sharing needles, poor quality contaminated drug, etc.

Absolutely true. And made worse by the crime that accompanies the addiction. The Swiss copped on to this a few years back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin-assisted_treatment

mikom

martomcg wrote: »

While the list is extreme in some cases. Most of it is behavior that should be punished and yet in Ireland is not.

Take the following out of the list and i see nothing wrong with it:

• Smoking in public places
• The sale of cigarettes to minors (under age 18)
• The sale or possession of chewing of gum
• Vandalism
• Spitting
• Littering
• Urinating in elevators
• Feeding the pigeons

Other punishable offenses include:

• Jaywalking—US$68
• Possession of firecrackers—caning
• Eating or drinking in the subway—US$340
• Not flushing the toilet—US$100
• The Possession or trafficking of >20 grams of drugs—death

Also I would be in favor of decriminalization of certain Class C's and also for small quantities for personal use of Class A's but to completely decriminalize/tax heroin/coke - definitely not.

You'd be happy enough to fine someone $680 for feeding pigeons?

You'd be happy enough to fine someone $1,000 for smoking in the park?

You'd be happy enough having someone who trafficked 20 grams of drugs put to death?

You'd be happy enough having homosexuality forbidden?
.
.

Kurz

If any big move is made I think it should be done on an EU-wide basis to stop any so-called "drug tourism". Drug tourism is a good thing for an economy but I'd imagine a sh1tty thing for a society. I'd hate to have a load of English in my town drugged up to the eyeballs every weekend.

I don't like this economic argument either. It seems like a massive fallacy to me. Everything these days has to have an economic benefit to be considered it seems. Even if it it had a slightly negative impact on the economy, taking control of substances like heroin and cocaine would have an immeasurable benefit socially. Economics shouldn't even come into it.

martomcg

mikom wrote: »

You'd be happy enough to fine someone $680 for feeding pigeons?

You'd be happy enough to fine someone $1,000 for smoking in the park?

You'd be happy enough having someone who trafficked 20 grams of drugs put to death?

You'd be happy enough having homosexuality forbidden?
.
.

I dont agree specifically with the amounts of the fines listed but agree they're reasonable things to fine for.

I'm completely anti-smoking (as an ex-smoker) and totally believe it should be banned anywhere there is a chance of a child inhaling 2nd hand smoke.

Death penalty for trafficking is excessive but unless the penalty is an actual deterrent people will continue to do so.
A life penalty here is 14yrs if that says anything.

I didnt mention homosexuality in my post because i'm neither for/against it. I simply dont care. It doesnt seem to be enforced in Singapore anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Singapore

seven_eleven

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Heroin isn't as dangerous as popularly made out to be. Most of its deleterious effects are as a result of its illegality. Sharing needles, poor quality contaminated drug, etc.

Is that why so many junkies end up passed out on the side of the street with the needle still in their arm, or desperate to get their next fix shaking and in pain with withdrawal symptoms?

You can argue "oh but thats because it is poor quality", but thats one damn ridiculous statement to make. Poor or high quality its still highly addictive and a menace to society. I dont think anything good ever came from it.

Jimoslimos

seven_eleven wrote: »

Poor or high quality its still highly addictive and a menace to society. I dont think anything good ever came from it.

Could make the same argument for tobacco tbh.

TheDoc

Sigh,

No thanks, I'd rather not have a population of junkies.

If anything I'd like all this ****ing hippy parading of "legalise" drugs criminalised...

mikom

seven_eleven wrote: »

Poor or high quality its still highly addictive and a menace to society. I dont think anything good ever came from it.

Except for pain relief..........

ScumLord

Kurz wrote: »

I don't like this economic argument either. It seems like a massive fallacy to me.

Economics has to come into it because a lack of money can lead to deaths or a reduction in education standards. We're spending vast fortunes on a war with chemicals, a war that's impossible to win.

Randy Anders

Great clip featuring Graham Hancock which outlines how outrageous it is have drugs illegal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk3EBmiURgw

frag420

mikom wrote: »

Slurryface wrote: »

Gotta be Sinapore style, they take no shít there, low crime rates, low anti-social behaviour rates. Got to be a winner.

A "fine" state if you would prefer less freedoms........ and by fine I mean the ones they will slap you with as quick as look at you.

Jay-walking........ fine...... smoking in wrong area............fine........chewing gum.......fine....... failing to flush a public toilet after use.........fine.......... eating/drinking in trains/buses or on platforms.......... fine....... possession of pornography..........fine........unnatural sex (Homosexuality is expressly forbidden.)........fine.

The mantra is work a lot and keep your head down.
I hope you like a "sin tax" on alcoholic beverages as well.

Heavy fines of S$1,000 are dealt out to offenders who violate a long list of Singaporean laws. This US$680 penalty applies to:

• Smoking in public places
• The sale of cigarettes to minors (under age 18)
• The sale or possession of chewing of gum
• Vandalism
• Spitting
• Littering
• Urinating in elevators
• Feeding the pigeons

Other punishable offenses include:

• Jaywalking—US$68
• Possession of firecrackers—caning
• Eating or drinking in the subway—US$340
• Not flushing the toilet—US$100
• The Possession or trafficking of >20 grams of drugs—death

http://travelogue.travelvice.com/singapore/the-fine-city-of-singapore/

If all those things are fine then great. I wish it was fine to jay walk here too!!

Oh and the only Singapore style I want us noodles. Decriminalise, regulate, tax and enjoy!!

Real Life

I really think anyone who says completely criminalise drugs can not think rationally. They will still be here whether legal or not, but if they were legalised and regulated they would be so much safer.
It would also create jobs and more tax for the economy.

I do realise this would be a big problem if say ireland was the only country to do this because then there would be a huge base for drug trafficking etc but i think it would work if done globally, however this wont happen so im just going to forget about it and continue to do whatever i want anyway despite the law because im not harming anyone else and im ok with that.

Piliger

The war on drugs has done more damage to society in the last 50 years than any other single thing.

It has produced global organised crime that is now almost unconquerable.

It has sucked billions out of our budgets that could be spent on better things.

It has exploded crime and the prison population.

It has criminalised private behaviour in a terrible and damaging way.

It has eroded our civil liberty and every day freedom to an enormous extent.

It has fuelled and financed terrorism all around the world second only to the poisonous effect of the Israeli-Palestine issue.

It has the been the craziest and most self destructive campaign ever followed by any civilisation in history.

frag420

Piliger wrote: »

The war on drugs has done more damage to society in the last 50 years than any other single thing.

It has produced global organised crime that is now almost unconquerable.

It has sucked billions out of our budgets that could be spent on better things.

It has exploded crime and the prison population.

It has criminalised private behaviour in a terrible and damaging way.

It has eroded our civil liberty and every day freedom to an enormous extent.

It has fuelled and financed terrorism all around the world second only to the poisonous effect of the Israeli-Palestine issue.

It has the been the craziest and most self destructive campaign ever followed by any civilisation in history.

Dont sit on the fence!!

flyswatter

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Legalize heroin?
I can understand hash.
But heroin?

Heroin isn't as dangerous as popularly made out to be. Most of its deleterious effects are as a result of its illegality. Sharing needles, poor quality contaminated drug, etc.

Let's not get carried away, regardless of clean needles its still dangerous and lethally addictive.

Bannasidhe

flyswatter wrote: »

Let's not get carried away, regardless of clean needles its still dangerous and lethally addictive.

So is smoking and drinking alcohol but both are legal.

Sir Pompous Righteousness

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Neewbie_noob wrote: »

Just for the record I am in favour of complete criminalisation Singapore_Style.

Singapore Style? What?

He's talking about hiding Class A drugs inside packets of Singapore Style Noodles so that junkies can't find them. Everyone knows that junkies can't stand Singapore Style Noodles.

flyswatter

Bannasidhe wrote: »

flyswatter wrote: »

Let's not get carried away, regardless of clean needles its still dangerous and lethally addictive.

So is smoking and drinking alcohol but both are legal.

You're comparing alcohol to heroin? , notice the word lethal, alcohol won't hook you at the first taste.

AnalogueKid

I never thought of myself as someone who would support the regulation of heroin until I watched this documentary.

It's sometimes better to let the scientists speak. The bit with the septagenarian on his exercise bike after a fix of morphine is a real eye-opener.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC_nrLIc2Zk

ScumLord

flyswatter wrote: »

You're comparing alcohol to heroin? , notice the word lethal, alcohol won't hook you at the first taste.

The end results for alcohol and heroin addiction look pretty similar.

It's true it takes a while to build up a tolerance for the taste of alcohol where as heroin tastes great from the beginning.

Fromthetrees

mikom wrote: »

A "fine" state if you would prefer less freedoms........ and by fine I mean the ones they will slap you with as quick as look at you.

Jay-walking........ fine...... smoking in wrong area............fine........chewing gum.......fine....... failing to flush a public toilet after use.........fine.......... eating/drinking in trains/buses or on platforms.......... fine....... possession of pornography..........fine........unnatural sex (Homosexuality is expressly forbidden.)........fine.

The mantra is work a lot and keep your head down.
I hope you like a "sin tax" on alcoholic beverages as well.

Those are all fairly extreme except for the pissing in elevators bit, if you're going to be in a lift for a minute or whatever I don't want people going to the toilet next to me, I assume going number 2 is banned as well.

Bannasidhe

flyswatter wrote: »

You're comparing alcohol to heroin? , notice the word lethal, alcohol won't hook you at the first taste.

Are you saying alcohol isn't lethal?

rubadubduba

mary jane has a brain but nobody wants to trust her.

mikom

rubadubduba wrote: »

mary jane has a brain but nobody wants to trust her.

She grew up in a Indiana town,
Had a good lookin' mama who never was around.
But she grew up tall and she grew up right
With them Indiana boys on an Indiana night

flyswatter

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Are you saying alcohol isn't lethal?

In addictive terms, alcohol won't addict you from the get go whereas Heroin certainly will.

Not disputing any dangers of alcohol.

Jimoslimos

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

But won't there still be an illegal trade like that?

Hard to say, there's a balance to be found between taxing and regulating strongly and making it an attractive alternative to that provided by street dealers.

seven_eleven wrote: »

Is that why so many junkies end up passed out on the side of the street with the needle still in their arm, or desperate to get their next fix shaking and in pain with withdrawal symptoms?

From this clichéd stereotype, I seriously doubt you've seen many junkies.

flyswatter wrote: »

In addictive terms, alcohol won't addict you from the get go whereas Heroin certainly will.

Not disputing any dangers of alcohol.

That is a myth, heroin isn't addictive from the first 'hit'

666irishguy

I think we are kidding ourselves if we think that we can just decriminalise drugs and everything will be fine. The criminal element has already got established and has gotten a hold of the trade and is unlikely to just die out or cease criminal activity because substances are legally available. Look at the trade in illegal cigarettes which is massive, despite a packet of smokes being amongst the most common items in any size of shop. If the state legalized it, as soon as it was taxed ( and pretty heavily I would imagine) a large amount of consumers would turn to the black market. Legalize Cocaine and they would just start selling Crack cheaper. Likewise with any other drug. I'd personally rather every drug banned. I have seen too many people smoking a bit of weed, then getting a few E's off the same fellow who gave them weed and so on until they reach the harder drugs.