Is college a privilege or a right?

Allie Agreeable Refrigeration

It should be open to only those who can afford it

Allie Agreeable Refrigeration wrote: »

The problem is that people on a low to average income, i.e most people, are only earning enough to pay back the interest. I've been paying mine off for over 2 years now and still haven't even paid off the interest. It gets automatically deducted from your pay, same as tax and National Insurance, so if you take some time off work (no paid holidays in my industry) the interest starts to build back up. I took a year off full time work to do a Masters and the interest was building up the whole time.

My loan wasn't for fees, it was mainly for living costs, which were pretty damn high in Dublin at the time. I took out the bare minimum and worked part-time all the way through college, but it's still a lot of money. The UK student loan system is really, really flawed. It's so disheartening to see so much of your monthly pay go towards your loan, but know that it's making very little difference.

Slightly off topic but as you said the loan is automatically deducted form your pay but what happens if you move abroad to work? I assume you are required to set up some other system of payment or do people try to avoid paying it?

speedboatchase

Its a right to all

Jernal wrote: »

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

Seems to go against the principle of "higher-level" education, if you ask me.

Turtwig

speedboatchase wrote: »

Seems to go against the principle of "higher-level" education, if you ask me.

Yeah I guess if you still want education to remain elitist that doesn't bode well.

UCDVet

College is a joke.

'Full-time' students go to school 7 months out of the year. Even when class is in session most of them treat it like a joke. They are far more concerned with getting drunk and laid than education.

The behavior at/around the dorms at UCD is unbelievable. More like a pack of unsupervised monkeys than students. I was literally told by a university official that things 'quite down' once kids start failing out.

Madisyn Loose Bleach

Madisyn Loose Bleach wrote: »

Slightly off topic but as you said the loan is automatically deducted for pay but what happens if you move abroad to work? I assume you are required to set up some other system of payment or do people try to avoid paying it?

Both. You're supposed to arrange to pay it back, but hardly anyone does. It's a lose-lose situation, though, because if you don't pay it back, the interest builds up and you're back to square 1. They chase you up eventually so you can't avoid paying it forever. I've actually just moved abroad and I'm delaying getting in touch with them because I just can't afford to pay anything back at the moment. I need to pay my rent and eat.

Awful system, IMO. Really awkward. If I could go back and do college again, I'd have taken a year out beforehand to save up as much as I could in advance.

granturismo

UCDVet wrote: »

. I was literally told by a university official that things 'quite down' once kids start failing out.

Is there another way of being told rather than 'literally'?

speedboatchase

Its a right to all

Jernal wrote: »

Yeah I guess if you still want education to remain elitist that doesn't bode well.

Elitist = people who have achieved academic grades that allow them to participate in courses related to their field of knowledge amid like-minded peers? If you say so... although that sounds preferable to a free-for-all of whoever feels like attending, no matter their knowledge. Maybe give them a degree for participation too? Would be "elitist" to just give awards to people who worked harder before and during the course.

granturismo

Its a right to all

granturismo wrote: »

Is there another way of being told rather than 'literally'?

He might have been told figuratively about how down and depressed they all are once the kids leave

UCDVet

granturismo wrote: »

Is there another way of being told rather than 'literally'?

Yes. There are many other ways.

If you really don't know of any, I'll explain some.

granturismo

UCDVet wrote: »

Yes. There are many other ways.

If you really don't know of any, I'll explain some.

OMG, like I literally cant wait.

ScumLord

Knockout_91 wrote: »

Because I missed the withdrawal date in the West by a mere 14 days, I have now found myself having to pay registration fees of €2,288 PLUS €3,500. I phoned the college in the west saying how unfair it was to claim 50% of fees from the Government considering I was only in their college for 3 or so weeks and if there was anything they could do and they said no.

Just ignore all those letters they eventually go away.

UCDVet

granturismo wrote: »

OMG, like I literally cant wait.

*Literally* means they actually did it. As in, they actually told me that once irresponsible students failed out, it would be quieter around the dorms.

They could have *implied* that; without stating it directly. They could have *hinted* at it or *alluded* to it. They could have said, 'As the semester continues on things tend to quiet down as students focus more on their studies'; without directly saying the future dropouts are the source of the excessive noise and childish behavior.

Stinicker

College should be a right but controlled, all you see is total losers getting grants to do some nonsenical course which will guarantee a dole queue career, they then spend college drinking and partying with free state money.

The grant system should be abolished and instead allow for it to direct pay a students needs like accomadation where the landlord would get paid, tuition fees paid also and give no direct money to students, it would cut out alot on the alcohol fuelled binges that students prefer to go on rather than studying.

Turtwig

speedboatchase wrote: »

Elitist = people who have achieved academic grades that allow them to participate in courses related to their field of knowledge amid like-minded peers? If you say so... although that sounds preferable to a free-for-all of whoever feels like attending, no matter their knowledge. Maybe give them a degree for participation too? Would be "elitist" to just give awards to people who worked harder before and during the course.

Well, effort alone shouldn't merit reward. People should be judged solely on the quality of their work produced not the effort they put into it. Many degrees are going the way of just overloading people with work and seeing who bothers to put the most effort in it as a form of assessment. Worse still, some people even get a proportion of their grade decided by their attendance in lectures. Labs I can partly understand but lectures? Does merely showing up and attending actually mean you're learning something? How does it even go towards show competency in understanding areas of biochemistry?

In my experience, people who have interests in something, no matter how initially crap they're at that something, always seem to get good at it and continuously keep improving themselves to freakish levels. People who have ability but no interest seem to stay at that same constant level forever. I know personal experience is an extremely limited measure of anything so it might not always be the case but I think purely from reasonableness the ideal should be that everyone deserves the chance if they squander it, they squander it.

UCDVet

It should be open to only those who can afford it

UCDVet wrote: »

College is a joke.

'Full-time' students go to school 7 months out of the year. Even when class is in session most of them treat it like a joke. They are far more concerned with getting drunk and laid than education.

That's simply not true in fairness. Yes people enjoy themselves during University but that's part of it but the vast majority do take their studies seriously too. People who don't generally get found out, they make get pass degrees etc but very few if any will graduate with a decent degree without putting in plenty of effort.

On the length of time, it is 8 months the college year but people need the summers to work to earn some money for the year, yes its difficult nowadays to get a summer job but when was in undergrad I was working for 4 months of every summer, straight from the day after my last exam until I went back after the summer, with maybe a week or so holidays during the summer.

Bannasidhe

donalg1 wrote: »

Personally I dont think there should be college grants available to anyone, the country is broke after all. If I was in charge I would do away with them altogether, I would however, put a scholarship scheme in place, say if you get 500 - 600 points in your leaving cert you get a grant / scholarship. I would also try and encourage some of the leading businesses in the country to offer some sort of scholarship scheme, as in they give you grants for college and then you go work for them when you finish.

The problem with this - and I speak from experience as a lecturer in an Irish university - is that due to the way our points system/2nd level is structured in many cases all 500-600 points in the Leaving Cert demonstrate is an ability to retain information and regurgitate it. We teach 2nd level students to 'learn it off' -'it' being the parts deemed likely to come up in the exams. We do NOT teach them to critically analyse, to question, to think outside the neat little boxes. The key to success in the Leaving Cert is to remain firmly inside the box and just repeat what you were told. :mad:

What we end up with are university students (not all, but in my experience the majority) who will never achieve more than 'average' marks as they lack the ability to undertake independent study and the motivation to push themselves.

Some one mentioned a student who has 5 hours of lectures a week - firstly, some of those would be options that student has personally selected. Secondly, this misses the point of lectures where the lecturer has 50 minutes max to impart the relevant information on a complex topic. A lecture cannot be anything more than a broad stroke guide to the important bits - the student must then take personal responsibility for further study.

One of the areas I lecture on is the Reformation - in 50 minutes all I can do is outline the background to the situation re: Rome that annoyed Luther so much, give a brief run through of previous reformers who inspired Luther, show how Luther's theology differed from Rome's etc - then I have to cover Calvin, Knox, the Anabaptists, Henry VIII, Elizabeth's Anglican Communion compromise, political ramifications etc etc etc. ALL of this in 50 minutes!!

So that lectures didn't turn into 50 minute dictation sessions I used to put the most of the info on Blackboard afterwards so that students could actually concentrate on listening, asking questions, thinking about the topic - what I got in return was a small minority (about 5%) who engaged fully, 5% who thought lectures/ stuff on Blackboard was all they needed and were happy to regurgitate, 5% who didn't bother with lectures and just used Blackboard. 5% who didn't even do that much and the remaining 80% who hovered around the 50% mark as they would read an extra book or two but never really question what they were reading to any depth.
I no longer put lectures on BB - instead I tell students they can email me and I will send them on. The engaged 5% usually email me within a day, a further 20% will email me in the days before the exam. That is the level of commitment to education from most Irish university students. I should add that the 5% who make it worthwhile are nearly always mature students or students who are coping with a learning disability like dyslexia.

I also teach mature students through Oscail (distance education run by DCU) and the difference is palpable. Most of these students have been many years out of education, many have no Leaving Cert, but ALL are committed, engaged, interested and want to understand.

I love seeing American students - they are determined to get their monies worth and genuinely engage with the topics.

Too many Irish students not only think a university education is a right - they think they should get a degree for just turning up occasionally.

Most are content to regurgitate without understanding what they heard in those few lectures they turned up to and feel hard done by that not only are they expected to read books all by themselves - the lecturers have the audacity to fail to underline the 'important' bits in the books for them.

It strikes me - and I am not alone, most of my colleagues feel the same - that as a university education is perceived as 'free' most Irish students have no mass on it. They are there for the craic and a 'sure I might as well get a degree' attitude prevails. I firmly believe that if students had to pay - via student loans - that they would be far more likely to be determined to get value for their money.

bnt

Stinicker wrote: »

College should be a right but controlled, all you see is total losers getting grants to do some nonsenical course which will guarantee a dole queue career, they then spend college drinking and partying with free state money.

The grant system should be abolished and instead allow for it to direct pay a students needs like accomadation where the landlord would get paid, tuition fees paid also and give no direct money to students, it would cut out alot on the alcohol fuelled binges that students prefer to go on rather than studying.

If what I saw at UCD in the last few years was any guide, it's not the Grant or other govt. money that bankrolls the binges, but rather The Bank of Mum & Dad. The grant is so puny these days that it could hardly fund a lavish lifestyle: €1,270 a year if you live within 45 miles of the university. "Free Fees" does not cover accommodation, either.

Turtwig

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The problem with this - and I speak from experience as a lecturer in an Irish university - is that due to the way our points system/2nd level is structured in many cases all 500-600 points in the Leaving Cert demonstrate is an ability to retain information and regurgitate it. We teach 2nd level students to 'learn it off' -'it' being the parts deemed likely to come up in the exams. We do NOT teach them to critically analyse, to question, to think outside the neat little boxes. The key to success in the Leaving Cert is to remain firmly inside the box and just repeat what you were told. :mad:

What we end up with are university students (not all, but in my experience the majority) who will never achieve more than 'average' marks as they lack the ability to undertake independent study and the motivation to push themselves.

Some one mentioned a student who has 5 hours of lectures a week - firstly, some of those would be options that student has personally selected. Secondly, this misses the point of lectures where the lecturer has 50 minutes max to impart the relevant information on a complex topic. A lecture cannot be anything more than a broad stroke guide to the important bits - the student must then take personal responsibility for further study.

One of the areas I lecture on is the Reformation - in 50 minutes all I can do is outline the background to the situation re: Rome that annoyed Luther so much, give a brief run through of previous reformers who inspired Luther, show how Luther's theology differed from Rome's etc - then I have to cover Calvin, Knox, the Anabaptists, Henry VIII, Elizabeth's Anglican Communion compromise, political ramifications etc etc etc. ALL of this in 50 minutes!!

So that lectures didn't turn into 50 minute dictation sessions I used to put the most of the info on Blackboard afterwards so that students could actually concentrate on listening, asking questions, thinking about the topic - what I got in return was a small minority (about 5%) who engaged fully, 5% who thought lectures/ stuff on Blackboard was all they needed and were happy to regurgitate, 5% who didn't bother with lectures and just used Blackboard. 5% who didn't even do that much and the remaining 80% who hovered around the 50% mark as they would read an extra book or two but never really question what they were reading to any depth.
I no longer put lectures on BB - instead I tell students they can email me and I will send them on. The engaged 5% usually email me within a day, a further 20% will email me in the days before the exam. That is the level of commitment to education from most Irish university students. I should add that the 5% who make it worthwhile are nearly always mature students or students who are coping with a learning disability like dyslexia.

I also teach mature students through Oscail (distance education run by DCU) and the difference is palpable. Most of these students have been many years out of education, many have no Leaving Cert, but ALL are committed, engaged, interested and want to understand.

I love seeing American students - they are determined to get their monies worth and genuinely engage with the topics.

Too many Irish students not only think a university education is a right - they think they should get a degree for just turning up occasionally.

Most are content to regurgitate without understanding what they heard in those few lectures they turned up to and feel hard done by that not only are they expected to read books all by themselves - the lecturers have the audacity to fail to underline the 'important' bits in the books for them.

It strikes me - and I am not alone, most of my colleagues feel the same - that as a university education is perceived as 'free' most Irish students have no mass on it. They are there for the craic and a 'sure I might as well get a degree' attitude prevails. I firmly believe that if students had to pay - via student loans - that they would be far more likely to be determined to get value for their money.

Fantastic post.

The only issue I have with it is that the current system forces students to stick with courses they don't like. For example, a student might love Leaving Cert maths, use that as basis for thinking they'd like pure maths a degree, works really hard in the Leaving Cert and then realise half way through their first semester, or later, that they actually hate the subject. But they can't go back, the jobs prospects for this course are still supposedly quite good.They can transfer but usually a fear of losing the grant and fees causes them to press on to finish the thing. Further fear of loss of support from their parents makes things even worse again. It's mind boggling in many ways but you probably see it every year. If that same fear remains when they, or someone else, is paying their fees you'll still have the same problem.
The bottom line is that many students are too young to afford College themselves, so the people who want the value for their money are usually the parents and they'll often force them into the courses of action that they desire. Not the one desired by the student.

Bannasidhe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The problem with this - and I speak from experience as a lecturer in an Irish university - is that due to the way our points system/2nd level is structured in many cases all 500-600 points in the Leaving Cert demonstrate is an ability to retain information and regurgitate it. We teach 2nd level students to 'learn it off' -'it' being the parts deemed likely to come up in the exams. We do NOT teach them to critically analyse, to question, to think outside the neat little boxes. The key to success in the Leaving Cert is to remain firmly inside the box and just repeat what you were told. :mad:

What we end up with are university students (not all, but in my experience the majority) who will never achieve more than 'average' marks as they lack the ability to undertake independent study and the motivation to push themselves.

Some one mentioned a student who has 5 hours of lectures a week - firstly, some of those would be options that student has personally selected. Secondly, this misses the point of lectures where the lecturer has 50 minutes max to impart the relevant information on a complex topic. A lecture cannot be anything more than a broad stroke guide to the important bits - the student must then take personal responsibility for further study.

One of the areas I lecture on is the Reformation - in 50 minutes all I can do is outline the background to the situation re: Rome that annoyed Luther so much, give a brief run through of previous reformers who inspired Luther, show how Luther's theology differed from Rome's etc - then I have to cover Calvin, Knox, the Anabaptists, Henry VIII, Elizabeth's Anglican Communion compromise, political ramifications etc etc etc. ALL of this in 50 minutes!!

So that lectures didn't turn into 50 minute dictation sessions I used to put the most of the info on Blackboard afterwards so that students could actually concentrate on listening, asking questions, thinking about the topic - what I got in return was a small minority (about 5%) who engaged fully, 5% who thought lectures/ stuff on Blackboard was all they needed and were happy to regurgitate, 5% who didn't bother with lectures and just used Blackboard. 5% who didn't even do that much and the remaining 80% who hovered around the 50% mark as they would read an extra book or two but never really question what they were reading to any depth.
I no longer put lectures on BB - instead I tell students they can email me and I will send them on. The engaged 5% usually email me within a day, a further 20% will email me in the days before the exam. That is the level of commitment to education from most Irish university students. I should add that the 5% who make it worthwhile are nearly always mature students or students who are coping with a learning disability like dyslexia.

I also teach mature students through Oscail (distance education run by DCU) and the difference is palpable. Most of these students have been many years out of education, many have no Leaving Cert, but ALL are committed, engaged, interested and want to understand.

I love seeing American students - they are determined to get their monies worth and genuinely engage with the topics.

Too many Irish students not only think a university education is a right - they think they should get a degree for just turning up occasionally.

Most are content to regurgitate without understanding what they heard in those few lectures they turned up to and feel hard done by that not only are they expected to read books all by themselves - the lecturers have the audacity to fail to underline the 'important' bits in the books for them.

It strikes me - and I am not alone, most of my colleagues feel the same - that as a university education is perceived as 'free' most Irish students have no mass on it. They are there for the craic and a 'sure I might as well get a degree' attitude prevails. I firmly believe that if students had to pay - via student loans - that they would be far more likely to be determined to get value for their money.

I would have to agree with you - the students at the college where I did my BA who were funded by the state or Mammy and Daddy generally didn't appreciate the education they were receiving and did very little. I was always motivated because it was all coming out of my own pocket.

That said, I got a scholarship for my Masters and was so, so grateful for it. I worked harder than anyone and got the best results, because I didn't want to let the university down after they'd given me that chance. I wouldn't have been able to afford to do the Masters otherwise. I think there should be some state funding, but it should go towards students with proven academic ability and motivation, not just those from poorer families.

Bannasidhe

Jernal wrote: »

Fantastic post.

The only issue I have with it is that the current system forces students to stick with courses they don't like. For example, a student might love Leaving Cert maths, use that as basis for thinking they'd like pure maths a degree, works really hard in the Leaving Cert and then realise half way through their first semester, or later, that they actually hate the subject. But they can't go back, the jobs prospects for this course are still supposedly quite good.They can transfer but usually a fear of losing the grant and fees causes them to press on to finish the thing. Further fear of loss of support from their parents makes things even worse again. It's mind boggling in many ways but you probably see it every year. If that same fear remains when they, or someone else, is paying their fees you'll still have the same problem.
The bottom line is that many students are too young to afford College themselves, so the people who want the value for their money are usually the parents and they'll often force them into the courses of action that they desire. Not the one desired by the student.

Very true. Students have the briefest window to transfer and I absolutely agree the system needs to be more flexible. I imagine that this will never happen as it will increase the workload for the army of admin workers who infest our universities. Where I work we have 1:1 parity between admin/teaching staff...the mind boggles as to what all these admin staff are doing. I (and my colleagues) research, write and deliver our own lectures, set and correct assignments, set and correct exams. Put all the marks onto an excel sheet which is uploaded to a central secure system by the dept. secretary ...

I would be in favour of adopting the US style Liberal Arts degree where students are required to do a few modules outside their specialised area and flexibility within the system encourages and enables a far broader educational experience.

In Ireland we actively discourage cross-disciplinary work - heaven forbid an English student should learn about Shakespeare's world placing his works in their historical context and...gasp...also be able to do some biology modules...or politics...or psychology...or that a business student should study the history of art...or geography...:eek:

Bannasidhe

Allie Agreeable Refrigeration wrote: »

I would have to agree with you - the students at the college where I did my BA who were funded by the state or Mammy and Daddy generally didn't appreciate the education they were receiving and did very little. I was always motivated because it was all coming out of my own pocket.

That said, I got a scholarship for my Masters and was so, so grateful for it. I worked harder than anyone and got the best results, because I didn't want to let the university down after they'd given me that chance. I wouldn't have been able to afford to do the Masters otherwise. I think there should be some state funding, but it should go towards students with proven academic ability and motivation, not just those from poorer families.

I agree - I was only able to fund my PhD by winning competative scholarships (and working...;)).

Scholarships are vital but should be available only to those who have proven their ability by attaining excellence in their primary degree.

At the moment we fund BA's for everyone - with a high number of wasters - but give little to those who have proven their abilities and want to go on to post-grad (H.dips are the only post-grads who get financial support).

We grudgingly give free fees (which are by no means guaranteed) to our proven best and brightest but nothing towards living expenses expecting them to work to support themselves while at the same time completing a PhD. It's all arseways IMHO.

Turtwig

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Very true. Students have the briefest window to transfer and I absolutely agree the system needs to be more flexible. I imagine that this will never happen as it will increase the workload for the army of admin workers who infest our universities. Where I work we have 1:1 parity between admin/teaching staff...the mind boggles as to what all these admin staff are doing. I (and my colleagues) research, write and deliver our own lectures, set and correct assignments, set and correct exams. Put all the marks onto an excel sheet which is uploaded to a central secure system by the dept. secretary ...

I would be in favour of adopting the US style Liberal Arts degree where students are required to do a few modules outside their specialised area and flexibility within the system encourages and enables a far broader educational experience.

In Ireland we actively discourage cross-disciplinary work - heaven forbid an English student should learn about Shakespeare's world placing his works in their historical context and...gasp...also be able to do some biology modules...or politics...or psychology...or that a business student should study the history of art...or geography...:eek:

The HSE is held accountable to some degree by the outside public. The University Administrations systems though? Heaven forbid if the general public, students or the academic faculties got wind of what it is they actually do! Some are worked until their bones begin to tear, others just labour on to some degree. It's a bit like a highly disorganised version of CIA with no need for secrecy, when you talk to people in internalised departments they still haven't a clue what the group they're in liason with is actually doing. It's just a never ending loop of confusion combined with frustration after confusion with frustration and somewhere in between you have both grad and undergrad students getting catered for. The whole thing is a mess!

Sarky

Bannasidhe wrote: »

donalg1 wrote: »

Personally I dont think there should be college grants available to anyone, the country is broke after all. If I was in charge I would do away with them altogether, I would however, put a scholarship scheme in place, say if you get 500 - 600 points in your leaving cert you get a grant / scholarship. I would also try and encourage some of the leading businesses in the country to offer some sort of scholarship scheme, as in they give you grants for college and then you go work for them when you finish.

The problem with this - and I speak from experience as a lecturer in an Irish university - is that due to the way our points system/2nd level is structured in many cases all 500-600 points in the Leaving Cert demonstrate is an ability to retain information and regurgitate it. We teach 2nd level students to 'learn it off' -'it' being the parts deemed likely to come up in the exams. We do NOT teach them to critically analyse, to question, to think outside the neat little boxes. The key to success in the Leaving Cert is to remain firmly inside the box and just repeat what you were told. :mad:

What we end up with are university students (not all, but in my experience the majority) who will never achieve more than 'average' marks as they lack the ability to undertake independent study and the motivation to push themselves.

Some one mentioned a student who has 5 hours of lectures a week - firstly, some of those would be options that student has personally selected. Secondly, this misses the point of lectures where the lecturer has 50 minutes max to impart the relevant information on a complex topic. A lecture cannot be anything more than a broad stroke guide to the important bits - the student must then take personal responsibility for further study.

One of the areas I lecture on is the Reformation - in 50 minutes all I can do is outline the background to the situation re: Rome that annoyed Luther so much, give a brief run through of previous reformers who inspired Luther, show how Luther's theology differed from Rome's etc - then I have to cover Calvin, Knox, the Anabaptists, Henry VIII, Elizabeth's Anglican Communion compromise, political ramifications etc etc etc. ALL of this in 50 minutes!!

So that lectures didn't turn into 50 minute dictation sessions I used to put the most of the info on Blackboard afterwards so that students could actually concentrate on listening, asking questions, thinking about the topic - what I got in return was a small minority (about 5%) who engaged fully, 5% who thought lectures/ stuff on Blackboard was all they needed and were happy to regurgitate, 5% who didn't bother with lectures and just used Blackboard. 5% who didn't even do that much and the remaining 80% who hovered around the 50% mark as they would read an extra book or two but never really question what they were reading to any depth.
I no longer put lectures on BB - instead I tell students they can email me and I will send them on. The engaged 5% usually email me within a day, a further 20% will email me in the days before the exam. That is the level of commitment to education from most Irish university students. I should add that the 5% who make it worthwhile are nearly always mature students or students who are coping with a learning disability like dyslexia.

I also teach mature students through Oscail (distance education run by DCU) and the difference is palpable. Most of these students have been many years out of education, many have no Leaving Cert, but ALL are committed, engaged, interested and want to understand.

I love seeing American students - they are determined to get their monies worth and genuinely engage with the topics.

Too many Irish students not only think a university education is a right - they think they should get a degree for just turning up occasionally.

Most are content to regurgitate without understanding what they heard in those few lectures they turned up to and feel hard done by that not only are they expected to read books all by themselves - the lecturers have the audacity to fail to underline the 'important' bits in the books for them.

It strikes me - and I am not alone, most of my colleagues feel the same - that as a university education is perceived as 'free' most Irish students have no mass on it. They are there for the craic and a 'sure I might as well get a degree' attitude prevails. I firmly believe that if students had to pay - via student loans - that they would be far more likely to be determined to get value for their money.

This.

I've been a student more than once over the last decade, and I've seen all the stuff you mention there. I'm fine with 3rd level education being a right, and the grant helped me support myself through 2 postgrads. It's appalling to see so many classmates who just didn't give a toss and thought they'd be fine just turning up, or just using the notes, or focusing on exams when 2/3 of a course was based on practical work. Most of them were using daddy's car or cash, or were there because everyone else goes to college, instead of wanting to learn something. Too many thought the degree was a trophy or status item. Very few actually sat down and read anything beside the lecture notes.

Appalling, but not tragic. Screw 'em, I worked harder, got better results, so I'll take their job opportunities while they hand me sandwiches from behind a deli counter.

Turtwig

Sarky wrote: »

Screw 'em, I worked harder, got better results, so I'll take their job opportunities while they hand me sandwiches from behind a deli counter.

The Deli counter probably pays more though.

Sarky

I'll take job satisfaction over wages any day. I've seen and experienced some sh*tty things arising from being stuck in a repetitive dead end job.

How many deli staff wake up every morning with "awesome! I get to go to work, woo!"?

UCDVet

Madisyn Loose Bleach wrote: »

That's simply not true in fairness. Yes people enjoy themselves during University but that's part of it but the vast majority do take their studies seriously too. People who don't generally get found out, they make get pass degrees etc but very few if any will graduate with a decent degree without putting in plenty of effort.

On the length of time, it is 8 months the college year but people need the summers to work to earn some money for the year, yes its difficult nowadays to get a summer job but when was in undergrad I was working for 4 months of every summer, straight from the day after my last exam until I went back after the summer, with maybe a week or so holidays during the summer.

I have to respectfully disagree. Maybe certain academic programs are different; I'm sure there are some very difficult/selective/prestigious programs where the students really do work hard; but from what I've seen personally - the vast, vast majority do not.

I've had friends who'd go out and binge drink/socialize 3-4 nights per week while only managing to attend half of their actual classes. They'd go on about how much work they had to do; but really it was from neglecting their studies for weeks or months and trying to make up for it in a grand push. In the end, I don't think I knew a single student who spent more than 30 hours per week devoted to their studies - and that's when school is in session.

You've said 8 months; but when I counted it up using UCDs calendar I came up with closer to 7. Regardless; that's four months zero hours per week followed by eight months of drinking, partying, and maybe 20 hours of class work; with two weeks of 'Oh my gawd! School is soooo hard' as they prep for their tests.

Truthfully, my problem isn't even with the ones who do party and still pass - personally I think school should be a year-around affair; at least for so called 'professional students'; my problem is the ones who show up with no intention of even passing (and the schools that tolerate them)

Bannasidhe

Sarky wrote: »

I'll take job satisfaction over wages any day. I've seen and experienced some sh*tty things arising from being stuck in a repetitive dead end job.

How many deli staff wake up every morning with "awesome! I get to go to work, woo!"?

This time of year I get to say 'ooh please, please, please let me have some mature students, dyslexics and Yanks!!!!'

Gorky

Its a right to all

I must agree with Biggins...

UCDVet

It should be open to only those who can afford it

UCDVet wrote: »

Truthfully, my problem isn't even with the ones who do party and still pass - personally I think school should be a year-around affair; at least for so called 'professional students'; my problem is the ones who show up with no intention of even passing (and the schools that tolerate them)

I completely disagree with this, I earned somewhere in the region of 5 to 6k in the summer months. This funded my petrol, insurance eating during the day and socalsing throughout the year along with buying clothes, going away and buying other things I wanted. If I had to go to college during the summer then I couldn't have worked full time meaning my parents would have to have funded all the things I could cover myself due to having a summer job.

Also lecturing is only a small part of a "lecturers" work, research is the main part and it is essentially what they are in the university to do, lecturing is an inconvenience for them in reality. They need the summer months to catch up.

Turtwig

UCDVet wrote: »

Truthfully, my problem isn't even with the ones who do party and still pass - personally I think school should be a year-around affair; at least for so called 'professional students'; my problem is the ones who show up with no intention of even passing (and the schools that tolerate them)

The problem here is running the taught programs. Even though the current Irish system is quite reliant on undergrads for funding from the State. Universities gain little themselves from taught programmes, especially undergrad ones : they need to do research! They need to attract funding for that research and get stuff published in reputable journals. All of this falls on the lecturers to do out side of their usual teaching commitments. This requires a substantial amount of time. If you expect them to devote the summer months to teaching as well . . .. Some Junior Lecturers are suffering really badly in this current climate. Most of them don't even like teaching, they just want to do research, tighten the noose around them further and you'll just make an already rocking ship even more unstable.