Is college a privilege or a right?

steddyeddy

I’m not talking about education in general. I’m talking about progression from secondary school to third level education. Opinion here traditionally has been divided on the matter.

I think college should be only for a certain few but where some people think college is only for those who can afford it I think it is only for those intelligent enough for it and with the caveat that they should be right for the course or else they don’t get in. I.e. they should be able to articulate why they are right for the course.
There’s an argument that the default admittance to college should be based on those who can afford it regardless of how intelligent they are. That’s ludicrous in my opinion. I just don’t see how that would ensure we get the best and brightest into education if the people entering are predominantly from private schools. On the reverse side of that I previously talked about a lecturer who discriminated against those who went to private school when they applied for post grad positions.

Both of those positions have been the reality and both are wrong. Colleges in America like Stanford and MIT do well in part because they offer huge amounts of scholarships to the best and brightest. So that’s my position college isn’t a right it’s a privilege but it’s a privilege open only to those who are intelligent and right for a particular course. Two long we have been sections of the population who saw it as a right to Entry College because they were from a particular social economic group. That’s hasn’t attracted a huge amount of intelligent people to be honest and so imo it’s not working

So guys college a privilege or a right? If it should be a privilege is that privilege based on whether you can afford it or solely based on your suitability for the course and hard work or intelligence (I think intelligence isn’t a fixed thing either by the way)? If it’s a right then don’t stop at the poll let me know why you think it’s a right? By the way these are just my opinions there’s no reason to take them personally so I apologise in advance for any offence caused.

xDramaxQueenx

tldr

steddyeddy

xDramaxQueenx wrote: »

tldr

Well then surely someone who finds something to long to read should vote for the "academic ability doesnt matter option" :P. Joke!

af_thefragile

Its a right to all

Privilege.

Tell the kids in Africa they have a right to college education!!

Biggins

It should be open to only those who can afford it

Its should be right to all that wish to better themselves.
By also doing so, they can also be of then betterment perhaps to the state in return be it in big or small contribution.
We should count ourselves blessed that people wish to educate themselves and not wish to remain at the level of chattel.

I'm NOT saying we should pay for everyone - I'm saying we should not create road-blocks to education.

RMD

A right.

You don't have to pursue 3rd level education if you wish but if you want to it should be readily available. Ireland has a very fair system IMO, no allowances or biased admissions can be made, it's solely down to intelligence. For those who aren't financially able to afford it, a grant is available.

Galwayguy35

Its a right to all

No it's not a right.

Having said that grants should always be available to people from poorer backrounds so that those with a real interest in learning have the chance to go.

marketty

Biggins wrote: »

By also doing so, they can also be of then betterment perhaps to the state in return be it in big or small contribution.

Sorry?

Biggins

It should be open to only those who can afford it

marketty wrote: »

Sorry?

If in luck they get a chance to become more educated, maybe sometimes that education will lead to ideas and help to others while working in public service (a position taken up by own choice).

fits

Its a right to all

I know I have benefitted from it personally, but I dont believe in free third level education. In fact, I'd scrap it and reinvest the money in good quality municipal childcare.

steddyeddy

fits wrote: »

I know I have benefitted from it personally, but I dont believe in free third level education. In fact, I'd scrap it and reinvest the money in good quality municipal childcare.

But then you would only base college entry on people with wealthy parents or inheritence?

Biggins

It should be open to only those who can afford it

There should be a fifth option, just to be clearer:

"A right to all but entry should be based only on intelligence and academic ability to cope with desired course."

?

fits

Its a right to all

steddyeddy wrote: »

But then you would only base college entry on people with wealthy parents or inheritence?

Nope. The UK system. Government funded low interest loans. Graduates can then pay it back when they are employed.

Would also result in people really thinking about what they study at college. And you'd get a lot more engineers and a lot less arts graduates. Not that theres anything wrong with arts, but an awful lot of people do it just to do something.

juan.kerr

Does 'college' include Nail Technicial Courses etc?

steddyeddy

Biggins wrote: »

There should be a fifth option, just to be clearer:

"A right to all but entry should be based only on intelligence and academic ability to cope with desired course."

?

Agree Im sure Im quite crap at coming up with poll options. If a mod could facilitate the addition of that option I would be grateful.

Galwayguy35

Its a right to all

Let those on high salaries pay to send their kids to college, say anyone earning over 100k a year.

I really don't see why anyone would have a problem with this.

syklops

RMD wrote: »

A right.

You don't have to pursue 3rd level education if you wish but if you want to it should be readily available. Ireland has a very fair system IMO, no allowances or biased admissions can be made, it's solely down to intelligence. For those who aren't financially able to afford it, a grant is available.

The grant :rolleyes:

The grant is available if you are a farmers son or daughter. If your Dad happens to be self-employed in many cases it is rejected.

juan.kerr

Since when did we become a society where the moderately well off pay for every state service they use many times over and those less well off have a right to the same services without paying a cent?

Gauss

It most definitely shouldn't be a right to have your expensive college education completely funded by other people. There need's to be fees. Of course in certain circumstances I believe there should be grants to help out.

fits

Its a right to all

syklops wrote: »

The grant is available if you are a farmers son or daughter. If your Dad happens to be self-employed in many cases it is rejected.

I'm sorry but thats bull****. I was a farmers daughter and no grant. ITs means tested and a lot of farmers dont have the means. :rolleyes:

syklops

fits wrote: »

I'm sorry but thats bull****. I was a farmers daughter and no grant. ITs means tested and a lot of farmers dont have the means. :rolleyes:

Things may have changed recently, but when my sister was going to college this was the case. Its not bullsh1t. Its maybe just bullsh1t in your case.

fits

Its a right to all

syklops wrote: »

Things may have changed recently, but when my sister was going to college this was the case. Its not bullsh1t. Its maybe just bullsh1t in your case.

Whats wrong with farmers children getting grants? Have you looked up the average farm income recently?

ScumLord

It's neither of those things. College is a service for those that want to further their education. IF you want to get to an endpoint of understanding then you might find a college course that will get you to that point.

another question

I think it should be open to anyone who has a GENUINE INTEREST in studying something in particular...if they cannot afford it but want to better themselves, then of course funding should be available to them.

However, what gets me the most is the amount paid out in college grants to all those students who think they have an automatic entitlement to a third level education even though they haven't a clue what do to, make little or no effort when they are there and spend their maintanence grants on boozing and clothes.

College/University isn't a lifestyle or fashion show, they are mean't to be there to learn. All you have to do is walk down Grafton Street or Shop Street on a weekday afternoon and see they heavily make-up clad girls with hair styled and dripping in fashion and pouts walking around with an attitude and the guys are as bad.

It's the students you don't see that are actually in their bedrooms, at a desk doing some study.

MsQuinn

Its a right to all

I went to college. It was my right, I had the intelligence and acedemic ability and my parents could afford it.

Spent my time in the canteen, in the pub or in my bed. Couldn't be arsed putting in any effort and hardly went to any classes. Still managed to pass but looking back now, I should have been kicked out because of my lack of commitment.

College is a privilege and wasted on the likes of myself.

another question

And furthermore, I have a sister in NUIG and she has about 5 hours worth of lectures a week and rent was in excess of €5500 for the year for her to stay up there. This is ridiculous, a full-time job is 8 hours a day minimum. This is an area of copious money wastage and colleges should be doing their part to look into this.

I also know someone else who had to give up a job in Penney's because their contracts mean you have to be available for work Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday but she couldn't work Thursday as she had (1 lecture) from 6pm-7pm that day and nothing on Friday. One word - crazy!

fits

Its a right to all

MsQuinn wrote: »

I went to college. It was my right, I had the intelligence and acedemic ability and my parents could afford it.

Spent my time in the canteen, in the pub or in my bed. Couldn't be arsed putting in any effort and hardly went to any classes. Still managed to pass but looking back now, I should have been kicked out because of my lack of commitment.

College is a privilege and wasted on the likes of myself.

I had the pleasure of teaching some mature students last year and they absolutely put my college-going self to shame. I suppose I came good in the end but I was never nearly as dedicated as my students were.

syklops

fits wrote: »

Whats wrong with farmers children getting grants? Have you looked up the average farm income recently?

"Average income". More rolleyes.


I have nothing against farmers. Im from a rural community. Nor do I have anyhting against farmers getting the grant if they need it. What i have a problem with is people, arbitrarily getting the grant because they are poor on paper, and the selection process ignoring things like land which they have recently sold.

Like I said maybe things have improved, but when my sister applied for the grant the first time about 8 years ago, all the farmers in her class got the grant, and all the self-employed did not.

another question

syklops wrote: »

"Average income". More rolleyes.


I have nothing against farmers. Im from a rural community. Nor do I have anyhting against farmers getting the grant if they need it. What i have a problem with is people, arbitrarily getting the grant because they are poor on paper, and the selection process ignoring things like land which they have recently sold.

Like I said maybe things have improved, but when my sister applied for the grant the first time about 8 years ago, all the farmers in her class got the grant, and all the self-employed did not.

'Poor on paper'. This sums up the problem entirely. Nothing against farmers either but the amount of parents that do not declare their savings on grant applications is an exponential amount - thus they are 'poor on paper' but are by no means poor.

mikemac1

syklops wrote: »

The grant :rolleyes:

The grant is available if you are a farmers son or daughter.

Over a decade since I first applied for the grant

Yeah we had a farm and a full set of accounts had to be submitted.
The local IFAC prepares them

After that expense you wait several weeks for a letter looking for more information.

And when you get approved it's at least November.
It was January one year when the grant came through

You make it sound like you lie about a few figures on a one page form.
It's a full set of accounts that get you approved

fits

Its a right to all

syklops wrote: »

Like I said maybe things have improved, but when my sister applied for the grant the first time about 8 years ago, all the farmers in her class got the grant, and all the self-employed did not.

8 years ago as in 2004 right? So in 2004 the poor struggling self employed didnt get the grant and the farmers rolling in it did.

hmm...

Do you want to think about that again? :D:D