School patronage

DK man

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Ah sure discrimination is fine, shure you're just too lazy to drive up to an hour away every day to get your child to an ET school.

I drive 30 mins and past about 4 primary / nearest 2 5 mins dribe because I want an Irish medium education - lots of parents drive distances for better schools etc.

Surely just because u are not getting exactly what you want you don't expect that no one should get what they want! How very selfish

Absolam

alaimacerc wrote: »

It's also beyond dispute that it calls itself "the Catholic, Apostolic and Roman Church", "the Church of Jesus Christ", "the one true Church", "the Universal Church", and of course the ever-popular "the Church". It regards all these as descriptions, not its "official name" as such. After all, it's the One and Only -- what'd it need pesky things like names for?
If you're using WP as some sort of authority as to the supposed lack of ambiguity of the term "Catholic Church", I'm somewhat forced to link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_(disambiguation)

Sure, and if I feel like using any of those initials to describe it, I may.
Though I never mentioned anything about ambiguity, never mind offered any authority for a supposed lack of it in any name... are you inventing that just to get in the disambiguation from WP?
A little churlish to ignore the fact that my first link to their name is Vatican.va, but anyways, I'm not the one taking issues with the names, recedite is. Personally, I've been known to use the term RCC on occasion, amongst other terms... I don't really feel the need to get hung up on what people call themselves.

expectationlost

DK man wrote: »

We also includes catholic parents too - just sayin

all our taxes are used to fund a discriminatory education system - just saying

The Randy Riverbeast

DK man wrote: »

I drive 30 mins and past about 4 primary / nearest 2 5 mins dribe because I want an Irish medium education - lots of parents drive distances for better schools etc.

Surely just because u are not getting exactly what you want you don't expect that no one should get what they want! How very selfish

Lots of wants there, you make it sound like parents choose for their children to be at the bottom of the list for nearby schools.

expectationlost

Jan O'Sullivan on schools system RTE This Week http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/the-week-in-politics-17/10493260/ at 37mins

didn't say much, met the bishops last week

she the baptism thing is only a issue for oversubscribed schools, but it isn't, its a problem with most schools, its a requirement of most schools

looksee

https://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/PublicationsPre2000/PlaceReligious1991.pdf

This makes for interesting reading in respect of religion in schools.

Hedge-schools, which outnumbered all other schools, were so vigorous and
so profoundly national in character that they hastened the introduction of
formal state involvement in primary education in Ireland, in 1831. This
involvement took the form of a new national system of elementary schooling
for the poor, overseen by a Board of Commissioners in Ireland who
administered an annual parliamentary grant for education. The Board
sought to unite in one system children of different creeds, and the national
schools were to provide, towards this end, 'combined moral and literary and
separate religious education'(2).
The main Christian Churches were opposed to various elements of this type
ofsystem. The Catholic hierarchy had supported the National School System
in 1831 because it met the needs of the moment, but in subsequent years
vigorously sought concessions. In 1840, the Presbyterians having secured
concessions, withdrew all opposition to the national schools, and in time the
Anglicans were also reconciled to the system. Government concessions to
the Churches ensured that by mid-century over ninety per cent of national
schools in Ireland were under denominational management. Attempts at a
non-sectarian official school structure had failed.
1.1.2. By 1900, the national schools had completely superseded the
"hedge-schools". Irish elementary education was both denominationally
controlled and clerically controlled, the fruits of the long struggle waged with
the state throughout the nineteenth century (3).
In that year (1900), the Catholic bishops, at their national synod at
The Place of Religious Education in the National School System
Maynooth were pleased to report that
"the system of national education... in a great part of Ireland is now in
fact, whatever it is in name, as denominational almost as we could
desire"(4).

This is not parents building the schools they preferred for the Catholic education of their children, it is the Church using its muscle and wealth to force the system of education they wanted and that suited their agenda. The Roman Catholic Church has little to do with the gentle teachings of Jesus, and everything to do with wealth, power and authority.

It is worth pointing out that this is from the Irish National Teachers Organisation - an organisation of Catholic teachers for Catholic schools.

looksee

And just in case someone comes along and claims Catholic Church sponsorship of hedge schools, this quote is relevant:

James Doyle, Bishop of Kildare and Leighlin wrote to his priests in 1831:
“ The Roman Catholic bishops] welcome the rule which requires that all the teachers are henceforth to be employed be provided from some Model School, with a certificate of their competency, that will aid us in a work of great difficulty, to wit, that of suppressing hedge schools, and placing youths under the direction of competent teachers, and of those only.

Bristolscale7

I spent some time at Mary Immaculate recently talking to administrators and faculty. It is impossible to under-estimate the significance of the successful marriage referendum on the issue of school patronage. Recriminations abound: teacher training at Mary I and St. Pat's is to blame for failing in faith formation; boards of management are to blame for hiring uncommitted teachers. Boards of Management are set to expire in a week or two and the patron/community reps are going to be 'vetted' (some talk of getting Opus Dei and Knights of Columbanus folks to be more involved). The catholic church is very much aware of the unique position it holds in relation to state-funded education. It intends to do everything it can to preserve this position.

Cabaal

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/11/16/ask-the-people/
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/patronage-and-schools-1.2429245

Michael Neary, the archbishop of Tuam,, says that we have mainly church-run schools because parents want it that way (“Parents must ensure the ethos of Catholic schools is maintained, says archbishop”, November 11th).

I would suggest we have predominantly church-run schools because parents have virtually no choice in the matter.

If the church is so sure of its position in the debate, then surely there would be no objection to asking the people of Ireland what they want, democratically, rather than dictating ever more from the pulpit. A vote to decide the matter once and for all would seem a reasonable proposition.

Vincent Hearne,
Nabinaud,
France.

robindch

The BBC learns about religious discrimination in Irish schools:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-34772148

Bristolscale7

robindch wrote: »

The BBC learns about religious discrimination in Irish schools:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-34772148

From the article:

The Balbriggan Educate Together's principal, Dr Fintan McCutcheon, said he wished "that we didn't have a situation whereby over 95% of our schools represent the sectoral interests of an undemocratic body without any electoral mandate to run those schools"

I wish McCutcheon worked for the ET national office. Give them a bit of back bone.

Cabaal

I'm curious, what if you're kid was rejected based on not being baptized from the local school and you opted to no look further based on financial limits on transport which would prevent you from enabling your kid to go to school elsewhere?

You are required to educate your kid, but not everyone can do home schooling and DOE aren't fans of home schooling anyway. So what does the gov do with you in such a situation if you just left it at that?

It would be an interesting test case because once the gov goes after you, you could then appeal and start going to the EU over the matter. While it is an interesting test case meanwhile your kid suffers so I guess this is why it hasn't happened yet and the gov know that the chance of such a case happening are slim to none I guess,

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Cabaal

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes, well...errr..sort of...she home schooled and was fined and jailed for failing to register for this,

To be honest she could have easily avoided the fine etc just by registering for home schooling,

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/home-schooling-mother-jailed-and-released-for-not-paying-fine-1.1916426
and more details at
http://www.thejournal.ie/carlow-mother-homeschooling-1652186-Sep2014/

expectationlost

expectationlost wrote: »

john Suttle Irish National Schools Trust on re deeds of variation of schools, clontarf report https://dialogueireland.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/150407-deed-of-variation.pdf on council matters http://www.dublincityfm.ie/ I missed the main thrust of what he was saying, i'll dig out the audio later, confirmed he is still in Labour party, Quinn was a disappointment, says Jan O'Sullivan won't meet them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NkuymNt9rA

he says the big problem occured in 2002, when FF made an religious exemption in discrimination for education? that in his youth religious education/catechism was separate slot in the morning and then they taught subjects as normal after that, but that changed a while later, if you think of rule 68 which was written 1965 "a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school."

then goes on about the deed of variation, http://www.cscs.ie/?p=32 , which he may be right on but I think it didn't go ahead totally becuase of legal issues, very hard to get clear answer as the govenment won't give one

http://irishnationalschoolstrust.org/

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

This makes for interesting reading in respect of religion in schools.
This is not parents building the schools they preferred for the Catholic education of their children, it is the Church using its muscle and wealth to force the system of education they wanted and that suited their agenda. The Roman Catholic Church has little to do with the gentle teachings of Jesus, and everything to do with wealth, power and authority.
It is worth pointing out that this is from the Irish National Teachers Organisation - an organisation of Catholic teachers for Catholic schools.

I don't think anyone has ever disputed that the Churches took over responsibility for schools in Ireland though? We all know that the government of the day intended for patronage of each school to be split between the CoI and CC, and the Churches were quick to establish sole patronages wherever they could. Something they certainly couldn't have done without the muscle and wealth provided by the members of their congregations.... like I said, these are not things that anyone has disputed?

looksee wrote: »

And just in case someone comes along and claims Catholic Church sponsorship of hedge schools, this quote is relevant:

In fairness, this quote from the same document would also be relevent:

The modern Irish national school has two antecedents, one official
and one unofficial. The official or legal ancestor was the state-recognised parish school, originating in the sixteenth century.and licensed by the local Anglican bishop. This arrangement , which was never effectively
implemented, was unacceptable to the majority of the Catholic Irish and was
gradually replaced by an alternative educational network, dominated by the
"hedge-school". The "hedge-school" really took root in the eighteenth century
as a vital organic force arising from the desire of Irish peasants to give their
children a Catholic education.

looksee

Absolam wrote: »

I don't think anyone has ever disputed that the Churches took over responsibility for schools in Ireland though? We all know that the government of the day intended for patronage of each school to be split between the CoI and CC, and the Churches were quick to establish sole patronages wherever they could. Something they certainly couldn't have done without the muscle and wealth provided by the members of their congregations.... like I said, these are not things that anyone has disputed?

In what way did the churches take over 'responsibility' for schools. What did this responsibility entail beyond ensuring doctrine was taught? How many National Schools have a CofI or Presbyterian ethos now?

Peregrinus

looksee wrote: »

In what way did the churches take over 'responsibility' for schools. What did this responsibility entail beyond ensuring doctrine was taught?

Hiring and firing the teachers. Appointing the principal. Setting the admission criteria. Etc. The functions now carried out by boards of management (which include a representative of the patron) were until comparatively recently carried out by the representative of the patron.

The patrons largely ran the schools. The Dept of Ed funded them, and set the context within which they were run by, e.g. establishing the curriculum, providing the schools inspectorate, etc.

looksee wrote: »

How many National Schools have a CofI or Presbyterian ethos now?

The Church of Ireland is patron of 174 national schools. The Presbyterian Church of Ireland patronises 17. One each for the Methodists, the Jews and the Quakers, and there are two schools under Islamic patronage.

looksee

OK, this is a quote from the Department of Education website:

The vast majority (96%) of primary schools in Ireland are owned and under the patronage of religious denominations and approximately 90% of these schools are owned and under the patronage of the Catholic Church.

If the Department of Education regards the National Schools system as being 'owned' by various religious bodies, what hope is there of ever getting any kind of equality in education?

Peregrinus: Hiring and firing the teachers. Appointing the principal. Setting the admission criteria. Etc. The functions now carried out by boards of management (which include a representative of the patron) were until comparatively recently carried out by the representative of the patron.

As I said, ensuring that doctrine is taught.

Edited to remove typo.

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

OK, this is a quote from the Department of Education website:
If the Department of Education regards the National School system as being 'owned' by various religious bodies, what hope is there of ever getting any kind of equality in education?

It doesn't say it regards the National School system as being 'owned' by various religious bodies though? It says the vast majority of primary schools in Ireland are owned and under the patronage of religious denominations. I am sure if someone had a huge pile of cash they could buy or build their own schools which could also be part of the system.

looksee wrote: »

As I said, ensuring that doctrine is taught.

That would certainly seem to be part of what they do. It would certainly seem to be the point of being a patron; to impart the ethos you want to impart.

looksee

The terms 'National' and 'Primary' are being used interchangeably in any current documents that I can find. While National schools are Primary schools, and are thus part of those figures, Primary schools are not necessarily National Schools. But there does not seem to be any differentiation.

Peregrinus

looksee wrote: »

The terms 'National' and 'Primary' are being used interchangeably in any current documents that I can find. While National schools are Primary schools, and are thus part of those figures, Primary schools are not necessarily National Schools. But there does not seem to be any differentiation.

The Department uses "primary schools" and "national schools" interchangeably. When it talks of primary schools, it means the primary schools in its system, i.e. national schools.

The Department has nothing to do with, and provides no funding for, private/independent primary schools. I think the state basically ignores them, except for the purpose of counting school attendance.

According to this article from the Irish Times, as of 2102 there were 34 of them, with a total enrolment of 7,610. So, as far as the big picture goes, including them or excluding them from the figures isn't going to make a huge difference.

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

The terms 'National' and 'Primary' are being used interchangeably in any current documents that I can find. While National schools are Primary schools, and are thus part of those figures, Primary schools are not necessarily National Schools. But there does not seem to be any differentiation.

Actually, my point was owning schools is not the same as owning the system.

looksee

Absolam wrote: »

It doesn't say it regards the National School system as being 'owned' by various religious bodies though? It says the vast majority of primary schools in Ireland are owned and under the patronage of religious denominations. I am sure if someone had a huge pile of cash they could buy or build their own schools which could also be part of the system.

No, it says the schools are owned, which means that individually they have control of them. I would like to know at what stage the state-owned National Schools became the property of religious orders.

I have no interest whatever at this stage in schools that were built and funded by the church/orders and accept that they are owed by the church.

Peregrinus

looksee wrote: »

No, it says the schools are owned, which means that individually they have control of them. I would like to know at what stage the state-owned National Schools became the property of religious orders.

Well, does the Dept of Education website say that any of the schools that are now church-owned were previiously state owned, and at some point were transferred to church ownership? Or do you know this from some other source? Or do you just assume this to be the case?

My impression - I could be quite wrong - is that, by and large, the church-owned schools were never state-owned.

Cabaal

http://www.thejournal.ie/new-schools-ireland-2449713-Nov2015/

How many of these will NOT be catholic ethos?

DETAILS OF BUILDING projects at hundreds of schools across the country – including the construction of 14 new ones – have been revealed by government.

The €2.8 billion investment will be made under the coalition’s capital plan announced in September, due to run from 2016 to 2021 if re-elected.

The projects will deliver an extra 62,000 schools places, Minister for Education Jan O’Sullivan said, adding that it is aimed at ensuring Ireland’s school infrastructure can cope with a growing population.

“The plan will also eliminate the need for any school to use pre-fabs as a long-term accommodation solution,” she said.

The 14 new schools are in areas with “very strong demographic demand”.

Primary schools

Pelletstown, Dublin 7 (also known as Scribblestown or Ashtown), 16 classes, opening in 2017
Dun Laoghaire, Co. Dublin, 16 classes, opening in 2017
Ballincollig, Co. Cork, 8 classes, opening in 2017
Dublin South City Centre (Regional solution), 24 classes, opening in 2018

Secondary schools

Lucan, Co. Dublin, 1,000 pupils, opening in 2017
Carpenterstown & Castleknock, Dublin 15 (Regional solution), 1000 pupils, opening in 2017
Limerick City & Environs (South-West), 600 pupils, opening in 2017
Malahide & Portmarnock, Co. Dublin (Regional solution), 1000 pupils, opening in 2017
Portlaoise, Co. Laois, 1,000 pupils, opening in 2017
Swords, Co. Dublin, 1,000 pupils, opening in 2017
Limerick City & Environs (East ), 600 pupils, opening 2018
Dublin South City Centre (Regional solution), 1,000 pupils, opening in 2018
Firhouse, Dublin 24, 1,000 pupils, opening in 2018

Absolam

looksee wrote: »

No, it says the schools are owned, which means that individually they have control of them.

Yes; I said they own the schools, not the system, contrary to what you said.

looksee wrote: »

I would like to know at what stage the state-owned National Schools became the property of religious orders.
I have no interest whatever at this stage in schools that were built and funded by the church/orders and accept that they are owed by the church.

Which is a somewhat different point from "the Department of Education regards the National School system as being 'owned' by various religious bodies", but I think Peregrinus has the truth of it; is there any reason to think that state-owned National Schools became the property of religious orders? Or more particularly, is there any evidence that any did?

Absolam

Cabaal wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/new-schools-ireland-2449713-Nov2015/
How many of these will NOT be catholic ethos?

I'd guess, going by previous tender processes linked on the thread, as many as have non Catholic ethos prospective patrons properly apply, obtain sufficient local support, and / or demonstrably add to the diversity of education in the local area?

looksee

Absolam wrote: »

Yes; I said they own the schools, not the system, contrary to what you said.

Which is a somewhat different point from "the Department of Education regards the National School system as being 'owned' by various religious bodies", but I think Peregrinus has the truth of it; is there any reason to think that state-owned National Schools became the property of religious orders? Or more particularly, is there any evidence that any did?

I typed system in error, I was referring to the schools. As I have said several times, National Schools were provided by the government of the day in the 1800s, they had religious patrons, but that is not the same as the church owning the schools. What I am now asking is the same as you, at what stage did the state give the schools into the ownership of the religious orders/church? As I quoted above, the Department is saying that they are owned by the church.

I have written to the office of the Minister for Education and requested this information.

alaimacerc

Peregrinus wrote: »

My impression - I could be quite wrong - is that, by and large, the church-owned schools were never state-owned.

I'm not aware of cases where schools as "going concerns" were given to the churches. But the default model seems to have been various variations on the theme of the state providing some or all of the site cost, some or all of the construction cost, and the church -- or a denominational-body themed "trust" -- ending up owning the whole thing.

I'd love to be more specific, but information about this seems to be rather obscure, and it's a moving target over time, due to various tweaks in the system. The most recent schools, post-1999, seem to work under some sort of leasing arrangement, rather than outright ownership.