School patronage

Absolam

Pherekydes wrote: »

Where would Irish non-catholics go?
Or do we not exist?

Why would Irish non Catholics need to go anywhere?

Hotblack Desiato

Dreadful, self-serving and factually inaccurate response from O'Riordan who clearly gives less than half a damn about this topic.

Absolam

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Dreadful, self-serving and factually inaccurate response from O'Riordan who clearly gives less than half a damn about this topic.

Interesting... I don't know how it might be self-serving, since he didn't seem to engage in anything personally favourable to him, but he did recite the specifics of the context, and reply to the questions. How was it factually inaccurate?

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

.. I don't know how it might be self-serving, since he didn't seem to engage in anything personally favourable to him, but he did recite ...

He is a labour TD in the unenviable position of defending a policy which is incompatible with the core values of the Labour party, and consequently is objectionable to most labour voters. And this is a couple of months before a election. In a true spirit of self-preservation and political sophistry, all he does is parrot off the govt. position, while being careful not to say anything that could be recorded as suggesting he personally supported it.

denisander

sounds weird

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

He is a labour TD in the unenviable position of defending a policy which is incompatible with the core values of the Labour party, and consequently is objectionable to most labour voters. And this is a couple of months before a election. In a true spirit of self-preservation and political sophistry, all he does is parrot off the govt. position, while being careful not to say anything that could be recorded as suggesting he personally supported it.

Hmm. Have the Labour Party explicitly said it's incompatible with the core values of the Labour party (not that they've done a bang up job of promoting anything that is part of their core values of course)? Do we have any evidence to show that the policy is actually objectionable to most Labour voters? Including the ones who have participated in Patronage Assessments indicating their favour for religious ethos schools? Or are we speculating here?
It doesn't seem to me that anything that he said was actually incorrect, or fallacious, or even tricky, so it hardly seems sophistic in fairness to him, and since he's answering on behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality it doesn't seem at all appropriate that he should add his own opinion on the subject, does it? Especially since he's the Minister for State, and ought to be toeing the line on Justice & Equality matters...

recedite

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

http://www.ncca.ie/en/Curriculum_and_Assessment/Early_Childhood_and_Primary_Education/Primary-Education/Primary_Developments/ERB-and-E/Developments/Consultation/Consultation.html

Just got round to reading this. Its a bit long and aspirational, but these points stand out;

ERB and Ethics may be grounded in an inquiry-based epistemology, exploring different religions, beliefs and worldviews without promoting one faith perspective over another. For the majority of primary schools, this involves a new way of approaching religion, belief and ethics from anything developed previously.

Teaching Ethics through a faith lens is not a recommended approach for a national curriculum in Ethics.

The survey itself could be shortened to one question; "Do you like mom and apple pie?" Understandable though, because I suppose their main concern now is to fend off the inevitable flak coming from religious fundamentalists.

I suspect this new part of the national school curriculum will be particularly important in the growing phenomenon of Islamic schools, where it will need to be rigorously enforced, by having inspectors visit the schools. Without something like this imposing some common standards in the teaching of what is essentially "morality", the ugly sectarian problems we have witnessed in the divided society of the past are destined to be repeated, possibly on an even worse scale.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

I suspect this new part of the national school curriculum will be particularly important in the growing phenomenon of Islamic schools, where it will need to be rigorously enforced, by having inspectors visit the schools.

There's a growing phenomenon of Islamic schools? There's only two Islamic national schools in Ireland, one's been around over 24 years, and the other 14 years. Not exactly phenomenal growth, in fairness.......

expectationlost

Schools should accept pupils on proximity - O'Sullivan http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/schools-should-accept-pupils-on-proximity-o-sullivan-1.2422056 via @IrishTimes another observer Minister, she no plans to put into legislation at the moment.

Church ‘dragging its feet’ over divestment process - Martin http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/church-dragging-its-feet-over-divestment-process-martin-1.2422751#.VkCHAo1hD50.twitter via @IrishTimes
Diarmaid Martin was on Morning Ireland talking about how the church establishment is dragging its feet isn't he the Church Establishment

audio http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A20876121%3A48%3A09-11-2015%3A

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

There's a growing phenomenon of Islamic schools? There's only two Islamic national schools in Ireland, one's been around over 24 years, and the other 14 years. Not exactly phenomenal growth, in fairness.......

"A growing phenomenon" does not have the same meaning as "phenomenal growth" of course

But according to this guy there are 40-50 Madrassa's in Ireland now.
AFAIK these are equivalent to "Sunday schools" so the kids attend other schools during the week. Maybe the RCC and CoI schools should set up something similar for their faith formation arrangements?
When the schoolgoing Muslim population in an area reaches a particular critical mass, they can transform these private Madrassas into full-time state funded Islamic schools, but as you say there are only two full-time so far, in south Dublin.
A big development planned for Clongriffin (north Dublin) will incorporate both primary and secondary schools, in preparation for when Islam becomes "Irelands second religion by 2043". Also a muslim (single sex?) swimming pool. And before you get your speedos out, remember it'll be roundheads only :pac:

expectationlost

recedite wrote: »

"A growing phenomenon" does not have the same meaning as "phenomenal growth" of course

But according to this guy there are 40-50 Madrassa's in Ireland now.
AFAIK these are equivalent to "Sunday schools" so the kids attend other schools during the week. Maybe the RCC and CoI schools should set up something similar for their faith formation arrangements?
When the schoolgoing Muslim population in an area reaches a particular critical mass, they can transform these private Madrassas into full-time state funded Islamic schools, but as you say there are only two full-time so far, in south Dublin.
A big development planned for Clongriffin (north Dublin) will incorporate both primary and secondary schools, in preparation for when Islam becomes "Irelands second religion by 2043". Also a muslim (single sex?) swimming pool. And before you get your speedos out, remember it'll be roundheads only :pac:

not sure government can regulate religious preaching

recedite

expectationlost wrote: »

not sure government can regulate religious preaching

That is true, and as Abu Hamza's defence lawyer said "beliefs are not a crime".
In the UK they initially ignored what was being taught, but in the end they investigated it and then made some changes to the law in 2000. Their policy nowadays is to extradite individual extremist preachers for incitement if they are out of line.
We are still at the "ignore" stage in Ireland. Islam as a religion is not under a centralised control, so a particular imam can set up and teach his own views and interpretations of the Koran. If he proves popular, the congregation grows. Rival imams are not really in a position to stop him, even if they don't like what is being taught.

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

"A growing phenomenon" does not have the same meaning as "phenomenal growth" of course

But according to this guy there are 40-50 Madrassa's in Ireland now.
AFAIK these are equivalent to "Sunday schools" so the kids attend other schools during the week. Maybe the RCC and CoI schools should set up something similar for their faith formation arrangements?

I thought RCC and CoI communities already had such things... it's where you get the term "Sunday schools"?

recedite wrote: »

When the schoolgoing Muslim population in an area reaches a particular critical mass, they can transform these private Madrassas into full-time state funded Islamic schools, but as you say there are only two full-time so far, in south Dublin.

I suppose they could, though there's actually no reason to think they will, is there? Are we actually talking about an imaginary possible phenomenon, rather than a growing one?

recedite wrote: »

A big development planned for Clongriffin (north Dublin) will incorporate both primary and secondary schools, in preparation for when Islam becomes "Irelands second religion by 2043". Also a muslim (single sex?) swimming pool. And before you get your speedos out, remember it'll be roundheads only :pac:

So over the course of almost half a century there could be as many as three Islamic national schools? You're right, this growing phenomenon requires our urgent attention!!

Bristolscale7

the muslim population of Tralee is over a 1000. They'd love to have a primary school with an islamic ethos. The new mosque there can be patron.

Absolam

Luckily, if the DoE decides Tralee needs another national school, they'll have the opportunity to apply for patronage just like any like minded atheist parents.

recedite

They don't have to wait for that. If they can attract funding from wealthy foreign "donors" they can build a school privately, as per the Clongriffin plan. Then afterwards, there is no reason why they can't apply to be part of the "voluntary" school sector. In exactly the same way that a RC owned school gets state funding. All that is required is enough pupils to justify the state salaries for the teachers, and a commitment to teach the national curriculum.
A commitment to non-discriminatory admission policies and equality is also required, but as we already know, there is an opt-out available (to religious patrons only) which says that religious and sex discrimination is not discrimination if it is necessary to uphold the ethos of the school. So I would expect male muslims to be the most equal demographic in this particular scenario.

Dan_Solo

recedite wrote: »

there is an opt-out available (to religious patrons only) which says that religious and sex discrimination is not discrimination if it is necessary to uphold the ethos of the school.

I wonder could someone then set up a school for white children only providing "we are racists" is similarly outlined as part of the school's ethos in their documentation?

RobbieTheRobber

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I wonder could someone then set up a school for white children only providing "we are racists" is similarly outlined as part of the school's ethos in their documentation?

No that would be discrimination based on race which schools are not exempted from complying with, so a person refused access on the basis of race (skin colour) could then take a case for discrimination under the equal status act.

Bristolscale7

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No that would be discrimination based on race which schools are not exempted from complying with, so a person refused access on the basis of race (skin colour) could then take a case for discrimination under the equal status act.

As long as you discriminate against the religion to which most of a particular race/ethnicity belongs you'd be fine....

expectationlost

Analysis: Divestment of Catholic schools remains insignificant http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/analysis-divestment-of-catholic-schools-remains-insignificant-1.2423468#.VkHcTAZVPNA.twitter via @IrishTimes again he says only one Catholic school has divested when the Minister says it was 7
https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-10-06a.115
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13R1okxdWxoxvtefMWkmluRxKJ46tDvzhVOIB6d88dg0/edit?usp=sharing

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

They don't have to wait for that. If they can attract funding from wealthy foreign "donors" they can build a school privately, as per the Clongriffin plan. Then afterwards, there is no reason why they can't apply to be part of the "voluntary" school sector. In exactly the same way that a RC owned school gets state funding. All that is required is enough pupils to justify the state salaries for the teachers, and a commitment to teach the national curriculum.
A commitment to non-discriminatory admission policies and equality is also required, but as we already know, there is an opt-out available (to religious patrons only) which says that religious and sex discrimination is not discrimination if it is necessary to uphold the ethos of the school. So I would expect male muslims to be the most equal demographic in this particular scenario.

Oh, they don't have to for sure. And in fact, the more privately built national schools we have the better it is for the State, obviously. Though in fairness, we've no reason other than Bristolscale7s speculation to think that the mosque have any interest whatsoever in building or running a national school....

Dan_Solo

Absolam wrote: »

Though in fairness, we've no reason other than Bristolscale7s speculation to think that the mosque have any interest whatsoever in building or running a national school....

I'm sure they're exactly as interested in brainwashing children with fairytales as any other theist group is. It's the pyramid scheme that allows them to survive.
They just don't have over a thousand years of indoctrination and state interference to back them up like the RCC does.

recedite

Bus Eireann has just sent this note to all parents whose kids use the state subsidised school bus system, reminding them that they are all catholics by default;

Important Information Note - School Transport

Bus Éireann which operates the school transport scheme on behalf of the Department of Education and Skills has been requested to remind families of the following important information.

At the beginning of the 2011/12 and 2012/13 school years, changes were made to the Primary and Post Primary School Transport Schemes.

The changes mean that children are eligible for school transport if they reside 3.2 kilometres (primary) or 4.8 kilometres (post primary) from their nearest primary/post primary school having regard to ethos and language.

At the time these changes were introduced the vast majority of children who were eligible for school transport were in fact attending their nearest school and were not affected by the changes.

Children who were eligible for school transport, before the changes were introduced, retain their eligibility until they complete their primary or post primary education cycle. This means that school transport services may be operating from your area to primary / post primary schools that are not the nearest to where you reside; in time the route of these services will change and the service may in due course be withdrawn.

It is important for families to be aware that children who have yet to commence their primary or post primary education should enrol in their nearest available primary / post primaryschool if they wish to be eligible for school transport. More details on the eligibility criteria and the terms of the Scheme are available at www.education.gov.ie

Children who are newly applying for school transport will be assessed by reference to the distance they reside from their nearest school regardless of whether they have siblings who may currently be eligible for school transport to a different school.

Children who are not eligible for school transport are not guaranteed a transport service. In many cases they may still avail of transport on a concessionary basis subject to the availability of spare places in a given year and a number of other terms and conditions which are detailed in the schemes.

The purpose of this note is to remind families of the need to check their eligibility status for school transport services before they make choices in relation to school enrolment.

Families should liaise with their local Bus Éireann office if they wish to get further clarification or assistance.

November 2015

Lets say you live 5 Km from the local RC school, but there is an ET or ETB/VEC school at 7km. If you choose to enrol in the RC school, the child is entitled to a seat on the bus. If you enrol the child in the ET school, you have to make private arrangements for the school run.
If you apply to both, but are only accepted by the ET school, you are not eligible for a seat. Even though the bus may be passing your door and traveling to that school.
Obviously there are a lot more RC schools, so these are more likely to be "the nearest available" schools.
The only way out of this is to attend a protestant school, in which case long distance transport can be made available to you. Effectively then, as far as Bus Eireann is concerned, your family "ethos" is RC by default. You can only prove otherwise by procuring a place in a protestant school.

In a sane society, school transport would be made available to your nearest school of a neutral ethos (either secular or multi-denominational, and with a completely non-discriminatory admissions policy)
Those wanting to attend denominational schools, private schools or schools with a specified narrow "ethos" would be the ones making the special private transport arrangements for their kids.

expectationlost

john Suttle Irish National Schools Trust on re deeds of variation of schools, clontarf report https://dialogueireland.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/150407-deed-of-variation.pdf on council matters http://www.dublincityfm.ie/ I missed the main thrust of what he was saying, i'll dig out the audio later, confirmed he is still in Labour party, Quinn was a disappointment, says Jan O'Sullivan won't meet them.

Absolam

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I'm sure they're exactly as interested in brainwashing children with fairytales as any other theist group is. It's the pyramid scheme that allows them to survive.
They just don't have over a thousand years of indoctrination and state interference to back them up like the RCC does.

In fairness though, what you're sure of doesn't really make any difference at all to that particular mosques, does it? I'd say there's a reasonably good chance they're not even aware of your existence, so we can't reasonably predicate their intentions on what you're sure of. Can we?

Absolam

recedite wrote: »

Bus Eireann has just sent this note to all parents whose kids use the state subsidised school bus system, reminding them that they are all catholics by default;

And all without mentioning the word catholic or even religion! Cunning dogs those chaps in Bus Eireann

recedite wrote: »

Lets say you live 5 Km from the local RC school, but there is an ET or ETB/VEC school at 7km. If you choose to enrol in the RC school, the child is entitled to a seat on the bus. If you enrol the child in the ET school, you have to make private arrangements for the school run.
If you apply to both, but are only accepted by the ET school, you are not eligible for a seat. Even though the bus may be passing your door and traveling to that school..

So.... lets say you live 5 Km from the local ET school, but there is a CC school at 7km. If you choose to enrol in the ET school, the child is entitled to a seat on the bus. If you enrol the child in the CC school, you have to make private arrangements for the school run.
If you apply to both, but are only accepted by the CC school, you are not eligible for a seat. Even though the bus may be passing your door and traveling to that school..
How odd. It seems to work both ways? Not that it sounds like a perfect system, but it certainly doesn't sound like one designed to remind everyone that they're catholic by default. You'd imagine they'd at least use the word catholic.

recedite wrote: »

Obviously there are a lot more RC schools, so these are more likely to be "the nearest available" schools.

So, more likely, but not always the case? Not that this has anything to do with Bus Eireann though, does it? They neither decide the ethos of schools, or where people live.

recedite wrote: »

The only way out of this is to attend a protestant school, in which case long distance transport can be made available to you. Effectively then, as far as Bus Eireann is concerned, your family "ethos" is RC by default. You can only prove otherwise by procuring a place in a protestant school.

There's a bit of a leap in the logic there. At what point did Bus Eireann make any determination about a family's ethos? You seem to be hiding a multitude of presumptions behind that 'effectively'.

recedite wrote: »

In a sane society, school transport would be made available to your nearest school of a neutral ethos (either secular or multi-denominational, and with a completely non-discriminatory admissions policy)

That's an oddly skewed view of a sane society? Why would providing transport to a neutral ethos school be a feature of a sane society? Are you sure you don't mean "In a society that works the way I'd like, so that's what I think is sane". Though obviously, there are quite a few people who think differently. I doubt they're all insane, but there comes a point where you might need to say it's not them... it's you.

recedite wrote: »

Those wanting to attend denominational schools, private schools or schools with a specified narrow "ethos" would be the ones making the special private transport arrangements for their kids.

Do we have a particular reason for targeting those that prefer a different ethos to you? Other that the fact that they simply prefer a different ethos to you?

Dan_Solo

Absolam wrote: »

In fairness though

Well that's the easily identifiable flag for the quality of the content of your posts at this stage isn't it?

Absolam wrote: »

I'd say there's a reasonably good chance they're not even aware of your existence, so we can't reasonably predicate their intentions on what you're sure of. Can we?

How does whether they are aware of my existence or not make the slightest difference to whether I am right?
My "guess" is based on the pretty much 100% likelihood of Muslims elsewhere preferring to set up Muslim schools. Your "reasonably good chance" is based on the fact that all available evidence don't suit your agenda.

Bristolscale7

Feigned ignorance and rhetorical questions--not the best rhetorical strategies are they?

Cabaal

Absolam wrote: »

Do we have a particular reason for targeting those that prefer a different ethos to you? Other that the fact that they simply prefer a different ethos to you?

Do you have a reason for targeting 5 year olds and discriminating against them just because their parents decided that they shouldn't be brain washed into the catholic faith?

Do you have a reason why you are ok with the current setup that uses 10% of primary school time on catholic faith formation. The same amount of time that is spend on far more important subjects like maths or english.

Being ok with discrimination of children using tax payer money is frankly seriously worrying but then its is nothing new for many followers of the catholic church. It explains alot about its dark and disgusting history where pretty much anything can be justified when it comes to vulnerable groups.

recedite

Absolam wrote: »

So.... lets say you live 5 Km from the local ET school, but there is a CC school at 7km. If you choose to enrol in the ET school, the child is entitled to a seat on the bus. If you enrol the child in the CC school, you have to make private arrangements for the school run.
If you apply to both, but are only accepted by the CC school, you are not eligible for a seat. Even though the bus may be passing your door and traveling to that school..
How odd. It seems to work both ways? Not that it sounds like a perfect system, but it certainly doesn't sound like one designed to remind everyone that they're catholic by default. You'd imagine they'd at least use the word catholic.

Firstly I'm assuming CC means "catholic church" here (as if there was only one religion describing itself as "catholic").
OK you are correct, it works both ways; which proves my point that they consider "a RC ethos" to be interchangeable with "no particular religious ethos". These are considered to be the one default "normal" position.

The policy does not take into account the fact that an ET school is acceptable to all, including the various Christian denominations, as there is no particular religious indoctrination going on. But the reverse is not true, in that both types of denominational schools will try to push their own particular religious agenda.

If a CoI school was at 5km and a RC school was at 7km, Bus Eireann would provides seats to bypass the CoI school and take the RC/atheist/agnostic/hindu/whatever kids to the further school. So there are very different policies towards the two types of denominational school.
Whereas RC and ET are treated as being of the same ethos.