Am I about to over-react?

Galvasean

Apaché pizza do halal meats don't they? I challenge the OP to order two pizzas; one with halal mean and another with non-halal meat. If you can taste the difference and prefer the non-halal meat pizza to an extent that the halal meat is unpalatable, THEN you have grounds for complaint.

Mark Hamill

legspin wrote: »

This has actually happened to me. I have cooked for vegetarians in my house food they like, the reciprecal tolerance has never been true. Indeed on one occasion I was denegrated for preparing a steak for myself while they were eating what I had prepared for them. In my own house.
The only vegetarian I know who has ever cooked me a steak is my wife.
If you come to my house and expect to be given food you want to eat the reverse must also be true.

You expect vegetarians to cook meat for you? While I agree that the people giving out to you for eating meat in your own house (while you prepared veggie options for them) are lacking in respect, I don't see why they should have to touch meat for you when you go to their house. Do all of your meals have to contain meat or something?

magicbastarder

christ almighty, you'd swear the visiting teams at legspin's home venue were being treated to a five course meal with waiters and champagne.
it's half time fuel. the debate about what they are duty bound to serve is farcical. especially given the boasts about the legendary sausage sandwiches.
if that's what your club has to offer, a halal kebab sounds far more welcoming and thoughtful.

Lapin

magicbastarder wrote: »

rasher sambos are way overrated. sausage sandwiches all the way.

Why not go the whole hog and pig out on a rasher and sausage sambo !

endacl

Lapin wrote: »

magicbastarder wrote: »

rasher sambos are way overrated. sausage sandwiches all the way.

Why not go the whole hog and pig out on a rasher and sausage sambo !

Such a sambo doth exist?!? In sooth, we liveth in wond'rous times!

Sambo should actually be called the 'hog & pig'.

wonderfulname

Would I be right in saying a strict Muslim cannot handle or prepare non-halal meat? Or am I thinking of a different religion?

I find this very silly, it's more comparable to complaining the meat is free range than vegetarian, the only arguments are ethical, and to be honest I doubt your sausages can claim significant superiority in that regard. A good host should provide for the dietary requirements of their guests, unless you can eat nothing but haram foods they are still doing that. The same principle is why a vegetarian doesn't have to cook you meat but you can't plate it up for them.

I now have a serious craving for suckling pig and cider...

ShooterSF

wonderfulname wrote: »

Would I be right in saying a strict Muslim cannot handle or prepare non-halal meat? Or am I thinking of a different religion?

I find this very silly, it's more comparable to complaining the meat is free range than vegetarian, the only arguments are ethical, and to be honest I doubt your sausages can claim significant superiority in that regard. A good host should provide for the dietary requirements of their guests, unless you can eat nothing but haram foods they are still doing that. The same principle is why a vegetarian doesn't have to cook you meat but you can't plate it up for them.

I now have a serious craving for suckling pig and cider...

Sounds elegant

wonderfulname

You just made me google to check I had my opposites right! Sure nothing screams elegance like a diet of vultures and roadkill...

MagicMarker

robindch wrote: »

Haven't read every post, but I think it's clear enough that legspin's problem is that while the club in north Dublin provides a range of food to visiting teams, the islamic-leaning clubs provide only one kind of food.

That's ok if there are good reasons for it, but I can't really think of any and, bearing in mind that hospitality is important, not catering to the visiting teams' needs seems, well, just not cricket.

I don't think that is the case. I think he has more of a problem with being expected to eat food that's prepared a certain way to keep in line with their "moronic superstitions".....

legspin wrote: »

I don't personally expect anyone to eat what I do but that they expect me to eat by their dietary requirements is beginning to really bug me. {........} Should I say nothing or am I right to object to being expected to eat by the dietary rules of a moronic superstition?

The OP hasn't mentioned the lack of bacon or pork which are actual dietary restrictions imo. He just seems to have a problem with the halal food, which isn't restrictive in the slightest because it's no different to non halal food except the method by which the animal is killed, which again the OP doesn't appear to have a problem with. Also, there can still be plenty of selection such a chicken (in all it's juicy delicious forms) or lamb or even non meat dishes like rice and run of the mill sandwiches.

What exactly would the OP like for them to do? Cook two of every meat dish, one halal and one not? Because that just strikes me as being a dick when the end result is the exact same thing.

robindch

MagicMarker wrote: »

I don't think that is the case. I think he has more of a problem with being expected to eat food that's prepared a certain way to keep in line with their "moronic superstitions".....

Well, as above, I think the legspin's problem is the one legspin mentioned "My objection is the lack of reciprocation".

In a club environment, I'd have expected reciprocation of terms and conditions for hosting and visiting teams to be normal practice. That's what sailing clubs do, and I'd expect the same for cricket club. It's got little or nothing to do with religion, though seeming to restrict reciprocation for religious reasons probably doesn't do much to help the optics.

Reciprocation -- legspin, can you confirm, plz?

MagicMarker

Well, Legspin is the one who brought up religion and started the thread in the A&A forum, so I think that has a lot to do with it.

But I'd be curious of how he'd like them to reciprocate in that case.

doctoremma

Legspin, I CAN see why you're annoyed, I think it would register as an annoyance for me too, I'm just not sure what you should do really.

It is incumbent on a host to provide for guest's needs. However, it is also incumbent on a guest to be as gracious as possible when receiving hospitality.

It's plausible that the provision of halal meat has not registered as potentially problematic for visiting teams (and there are also rules regarding preparation, use of cutlery etc). I'd be almost certain it's not a defiant gesture in any way. And having been on the receiving end of Muslim hospitality, I can only say that the hosting abilities of the people I have had dinner with far outstrip my own - "dutiful" and "conscientious" don't begin to cover it. I was even provided with a mini-bottle of vino on one occasion! My needs were paramount.

I would be inclined to view it as an oversight and one which, if brought to the attention of the host, might cause some embarrassment. For that reason alone, and given you don't have an ethical objection, I'd put aside my own discomfort for the sake of my hosts'.

Sarky

Restaurant near me is spitroasting a whole pig this weekend. It'll be glorious. I'll let you know if any Muslims show up.

legspin

Both Robin and Dr.Emma have the right of it. The hospitality aspect IS the crux of the matter.

However, I would be lying if the question was not originally prompted by a religion, the hospitality allowed by that religion, and the demanded tolerance of me to that religion. The food is just a small facet of it that directly impinges itself into my life.
As regards what I am supposed to do, well that's why I asked the question in the first place.
As has been pointed out this is the Atheist and Agnostic forum. If I can't ask a question about the treatment I am expected to tolerate by people who don't identify as that where can I ask it?

Telling me to put up and shut up though.... Haven't we all been doing that for long enough now at this point?
I did say that I was going to do nothing but having read most of the responses here I feel ashamed that I am going to do nothing and allow this particular death cult to get away unquestioned. Ye should be as well. This is how they get away with the **** they pull in other circumstances

Yet again I must iterate the taste of the food is completly unimportant but rather more what that food represents.

Mickeroo

legspin wrote: »

Both Robin and Dr.Emma have the right of it. The hospitality aspect IS the crux of the matter.

However, I would be lying if the question was not originally prompted by a religion, the hospitality allowed by that religion, and the demanded tolerance of me to that religion. The food is just a small facet of it that directly impinges itself into my life.
As regards what I am supposed to do, well that's why I asked the question in the first place.
As has been pointed out this is the Atheist and Agnostic forum. If I can't ask a question about the treatment I am expected to tolerate by people who don't identify as that where can I ask it?

Telling me to put up and shut up though.... Haven't we all been doing that for long enough now at this point?
I did say that I was going to do nothing but having read most of the responses here I feel ashamed that I am going to do nothing and allow this particular death cult to get away unquestioned. Ye should be as well. This is how they get away with the **** they pull in other circumstances

Yet again I must iterate the taste of the food is completly unimportant but rather more what that food represents.

What **** have these lads you play cricket with been pulling in other circumstances exactly? They're part of a death cult now are they? Maybe you should be calling the police?

Sound like this runs a bit deeper than the food they were serving.

robindch

Mickeroo wrote: »

Sound like this runs a bit deeper than the food they were serving.

As legspin says, this is about reciprocation. If his club is fixing two meals for visiting teams, while some other clubs are only fixing one, then frankly, that isn't reciprocating hospitality. Like for like and all that?

legspin wrote: »

As regards what I am supposed to do, well that's why I asked the question in the first place.

As above, if you want to go ahead with doing something about this, I'd approach your own club board more formally and say that you're not best pleased with the food in some other places. No need to mention any specific reasons, but just simply suggest that there's been grumblings down the mill about the limited selection on offer and that perhaps it's not to everybody's taste.

If the board agrees, perhaps putting it to a members' vote or perhaps also chatting with other members of other clubs to see if the feeling's the same elsewhere to establish a general consensus, then one solution is for your club and any others interested to make it generally known that they're going to ask visiting teams to express their meal preferences, say offering two or three possible choices. Each other club will then be honor-bound to offer something similar. In terms of optics, this could be expressed as a wish to cut down on food waste while increasing choice.

Another option, perhaps more risky but probably more effective, is just to bring along your own sandwiches to the one-meal club and politely decline anything except tea, and provide a polite, plausible reason like that you're allergic to curry or whatever.

schemingbohemia

legspin wrote: »

Both Robin and Dr.Emma have the right of it. The hospitality aspect IS the crux of the matter.

However, I would be lying if the question was not originally prompted by a religion, the hospitality allowed by that religion, and the demanded tolerance of me to that religion. The food is just a small facet of it that directly impinges itself into my life.
As regards what I am supposed to do, well that's why I asked the question in the first place.
As has been pointed out this is the Atheist and Agnostic forum. If I can't ask a question about the treatment I am expected to tolerate by people who don't identify as that where can I ask it?

Telling me to put up and shut up though.... Haven't we all been doing that for long enough now at this point?
I did say that I was going to do nothing but having read most of the responses here I feel ashamed that I am going to do nothing and allow this particular death cult to get away unquestioned. Ye should be as well. This is how they get away with the **** they pull in other circumstances

Yet again I must iterate the taste of the food is completly unimportant but rather more what that food represents.

You're completely off the wall here. As an atheist, vegetarian cricketer I can speak with a bit of knowledge here.

First things first, do the "Muslim" team ever ask you if the meat in the sandwiches you're providing is Halal? I would seriously doubt it, never been my experience that that has happened, if so aren't they showing some leeway to you and your club? So they are reciprocating on that front, your house your rules.

I'm fairly sure that the prohibition on eating certain foods pre-dates certain religions (especially islam, I'm fairly sure Saudi Arabia wasn't full of pig farmers prior to the advent of Islam) so it's more of a cultural situation than religious.

Thirdly - "death cult" don't really like the sound of that, pretty offensive.

I think we've come a long way from the days where most clubs automatically put out ham & cheese sandwiches for the opposition which left me and other veggies, muslims and jews starving (or at least having to just eat cake and buns!).

Mickeroo

robindch wrote: »

As legspin says, this is about reciprocation. If his club is fixing two meals for visiting teams, while some other clubs are only fixing one, then frankly, that isn't reciprocating hospitality. Like for like and all that?

Yeah I got what they meant in that regard, but the last post kind of made me think all they really wanted to do was kick up a fuss for no other reason than the guys are muslim.

robindch

I don't get the impression at all that this is about kicking up a fuss because some guys assert the existence of allah or whatever.

As far as I can make out, this is about some clubs who are unwilling to reciprocate, partially on account of religion.

magicbastarder

legspin wrote: »

Telling me to put up and shut up though.... Haven't we all been doing that for long enough now at this point?

you're reading far too much into this.
eating the food they prepare is not a tacit approval of targetting salman rushdie, or any other (non-halal related) actions of the muslim community.

eating their food, and enjoying it, and being thankful that you're enjoying a bit of multiculturalism with your cricket does far more credit to you than being annoyed that the food you're happy to eat is provided as an insult to you, rather than in the spirit of hospitality it is almost certainly intended.

MagicMarker

legspin wrote: »

Both Robin and Dr.Emma have the right of it. The hospitality aspect IS the crux of the matter.

However, I would be lying if the question was not originally prompted by a religion, the hospitality allowed by that religion, and the demanded tolerance of me to that religion. The food is just a small facet of it that directly impinges itself into my life.
As regards what I am supposed to do, well that's why I asked the question in the first place.
As has been pointed out this is the Atheist and Agnostic forum. If I can't ask a question about the treatment I am expected to tolerate by people who don't identify as that where can I ask it?

Telling me to put up and shut up though.... Haven't we all been doing that for long enough now at this point?
I did say that I was going to do nothing but having read most of the responses here I feel ashamed that I am going to do nothing and allow this particular death cult to get away unquestioned. Ye should be as well. This is how they get away with the **** they pull in other circumstances

Yet again I must iterate the taste of the food is completly unimportant but rather more what that food represents.

What would you prefer these people do for you? How would you like them to accomodate you?

Mickeroo

robindch wrote: »

I don't get the impression at all that this is about kicking up a fuss because some guys assert the existence of allah or whatever.

As far as I can make out, this is about some clubs who are unwilling to reciprocate, partially on account of religion.

I thought that too until they said this:

Telling me to put up and shut up though.... Haven't we all been doing that for long enough now at this point?
I did say that I was going to do nothing but having read most of the responses here I feel ashamed that I am going to do nothing and allow this particular death cult to get away unquestioned. Ye should be as well. This is how they get away with the **** they pull in other circumstances

As for the reciprocation thing. Well, if they're devout Muslims are they allowed to prepare non-halal meat? I wouldn't expect a vegan to prepare me a steak regardless of how daft I think their reasoning for being a vegan is for example.

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

I don't get the impression at all that this is about kicking up a fuss because some guys assert the existence of allah or whatever.

As far as I can make out, this is about some clubs who are unwilling to reciprocate, partially on account of religion.

Reciprocate with what though? Any omnivore can eat halal meat. Should the Muslim cricket club be made go through the hassle of sourcing another, but identical tasting, source of meat just because one person decided that they didn't want to eat halal meat despite the fact that it is perfectly palatable for them? Asking them to 'reciprocate' when there is nothing wrong with the food they are providing just screams of pointless tit-for -tat.

haulagebasher

You could just not eat their meat and then bring your own sandwiches with your own meat?

I think it is very poor reflection on the club that they automatically expect you to comply with thier dietary rules even though you are not of their religion.

I bet if the show was on the other foot and it was the GAA demanding that all players not eat red meats on Fridays the PC brigade would have a field day with it but since it's Muslims imposing their religion on others they won't go near it because its not PC to criticise islam.


Personally I would not eat hallall meat anyway because the animal is killed in a cruel and primitive way and many of the hallal "abbatoirs" leave a lot to be desired for hygeine and proper refrigeration.

It's odd that the cricket club is mostly muslim as it's a primarily British sport. I would have thought it would be mostly CoI or CoE.

MagicMarker

The OP is not being forced to adhere to dietary restrictions any more than someone who likes the chickens from Dunnes being served one bought in Tescos.

doctoremma

haulagebasher wrote: »

It's odd that the cricket club is mostly muslim as it's a primarily British sport. I would have thought it would be mostly CoI or CoE.

It might be worth remembering the breadth of the globe covered by our great empire....

Green Diesel

haulagebasher wrote: »

It's odd that the cricket club is mostly muslim as it's a primarily British sport. I would have thought it would be mostly CoI or CoE.

Cricket is amazingly popular in India, Pakistan and much of the rest of the empire.

Nodin

legspin wrote: »

Thanks for the replies folks.

Now I have seen the answers I do believe it would not be right for me to object but that won't prevent it from rankling with me.

As Endacl pointed out I have no problem eating halal when it is by choice (and indeed when it is a kebab, if it's not halal it's not a proper kebab imo). It is the choice aspect that I have an issue with. If I go to eat a kebab that's my decision. Expecting me to eat a kebab because that's what you want to do would raise an objection here

I'm not sure though that saying I'm merely being churlish because of the religious aspect of the food is correct. Religion, in all it's varying levels of stupidity and ignorance needs to be countered. Saying that one can't eat a certain food because a god would be angered makes me boil. Life is hard enough without having to add that level of crass idiocy on top.

Hospitality is a two-way street though. If you have certain expectations as to how you want to be treated in my house, you had better return the favour if I'm in yours.

So essentially you're pissed off because its "halal" - not the taste, not the actualy methodology of the slaughter or anything else. Totally pathetic, weak and an excuse to intellectualise whatever grudge you have against them.

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

Reciprocate with what though?

Another choice of food! Just so that they're offering a range of food that's roughly equivalent to what they're receiving when they visit elsewhere.

That's what reciprocation means unless there's something I'm missing!

haulagebasher

doctoremma wrote: »

It might be worth remembering the breadth of the globe covered by our great empire....

Yeah.Covered. It explains why Queenie looks so pissed of these days: