Am I about to over-react?

legspin

There is a minor issue in my own life that is beginning to trouble me.

I play cricket. Now please don't laugh but within the game, the tea interval is an integral aspect of the social aspect of the game (not to mention an opportunity to refresh oneself from an arduous afternoon of standing in a field on a pleasant summer's afternoon....). As those in the know will understand there is a fair number of muslims from the sub-continent playing it. In some clubs there is a large majority of them and in a small number of them they set up the clubs for themselves and are 100% muslim. Recently, I have found that these clubs in particular are serving only halal food at the tea interval. I don't have a problem with the taste of food but with the assumption that I would be willing to eat it at all. I don't personally expect anyone to eat what I do but that they expect me to eat by their dietary requirements is beginning to really bug me. I have said nothing yet (apart from the occasional mutter to my captain) and the season has just finished so it won't be an issue again untill next year.

Should I say nothing or am I right to object to being expected to eat by the dietary rules of a moronic superstition?
I must add that the problem is not limited to halal. If the food was kosher the objection would be the same but there isn't that many jews playing cricket here since Carlise stopped playing as a club back in the nineties.

Of course, I don't have to eat it, but like I said the hospitality aspect of the game is important. No one expects that they would eat the sausage sandwiches that are traditional in my own club (and for which it it famed within North Dublin cricket as far as I understand) but other foods are provided. My objection is the lack of reciprocation.

Am I over-reacting?

MagicMarker

I think so. The meat is the same, the animal is just killed a certain way. I don't have a problem with that myself.

I'd be more upset by the lack of bacon sandwiches!!

Shakti

Is it halal or the menu that's annoying you? to the non muslim whether it's halal or not should make no difference AFAIK except maybe in price perhaps and the lack of sausages, but to the practicing moslem it is very important.

robindch

Perhaps it depends on who's providing the food? If it's supplied by your club or at least, paid for by your subscription, then you've as much right to your choice as anybody else does. If people are bringing their own lunches and pooling them, well, it's not unreasonable for people to look after themselves.

If you're travelling to other clubs and only one style of food is served there, then I think you're within your rights to ask for something that you like, on the understanding that visitors to your club can do the same when they visit you.

One possible way of resolving the issue is to suggest that visitors are asked ahead of time for their lunch requirements, and the hosting club agrees to provide whatever reasonable items the visitors want. If you wish to play the issue as diplomatically as possible, you could say to your own club that you're suggesting the idea of menu choice since you notice that many muslim cricket players might be put off by the default menu of sausages on the north side and you wish to be as welcoming and accommodating as possible to people who visit. The other club will then be honor-bound to reciprocate with menu-choice too.

Otherwise, well, it sounds like something out of Yes, Prime Minister.

Do you have an objection to the cruelty involved in halal slaughter?
Otherwise, I think your being petty.

sbsquarepants

There must be great craic in the bar afterwards!:D

As for the food, well it kinda is what it is - they can't serve everything, so there is a set menu and if you don't like it you're just screwed. It's basically the same everywhere is it not? If someone off an opposing team doesn't like the food you serve then they'd just have to do without i pressume?
I personally wouldn't make an issue of it........i also wouldn't be playing cricket, but that's just me!;)

doctoremma

Moonbaby wrote: »

Do you have an objection to the cruelty involved in halal slaughter?

This. I don't eat meat and there's no way I would ever buy or serve halal meat to my husband/at a dinner party/etc. If you have a legitimate objection in this arena, I would voice it - I personally think it's reasonable to ask for ethically-sourced and killed meat products (in fact, I think it a bit of duty).

If you are just objecting to the religious ceremony associated with the preparation of the meat, then I'd leave it. It's meaningless to you. It has no bearing on your life.

Yeah I think the issue the OP has is the slaughter method rather than the label put on the food.

Personally I'd prefer to eat non-Halal and non-Kosher meat but at the same time I don't think the difference in killing method allows me to get too high and mighty when I might be eating that animal's brother in burger form that night anyway.

doctoremma

Does the OP have the option of eating only vegetarian options at tea?

Dades

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah I think the issue the OP has is the slaughter method rather than the label put on the food.

I'm not getting that (though legspin can confirm (cricket term?!)).

I think it's the principle that because there's a load of Muslims present, that everyone should accept that food will be halal from now on.

Personally, I would find it mildly irritating, but say nothing. I just hate pandering to daft traditions and people assuming that because it's a religious - and dare I say it - in particular a Muslim tradition there's no choice in the matter.

If, however, halal food was something I genuinely found unpalatable I would find it hard to not make the point that all club members deserve to be catered for. it's a cricket club, not a Mosque.

Gurgle

I'm completely failing to see the point.
Muslims require their meat to be killed in a particular way, you don't.

What is there to be upset / indignant about?

doctoremma

Dades wrote: »

(though legspin can confirm (cricket term?!))

Batsman position themselves such that they have leg side (where the bat is positioned on the opposite side of their body). So for a right-handed batsman, the left of the pitch is the "leg side". "Leg spin" is type of ball bowled such that it bounces then spins away from the leg side of the batsman. For a right-handed batsman, this means it bounces, then spins away to his right.

*is not really a girl*

magicbastarder

if someone else is providing the food, it seems a bit churlish to complain. for example, if the other team were comprised of coeliacs, and they were supplying the food, it's fair for them to supply food everyone can eat.
you may be asking them to supply meat they have a religious objection to; whatever your issues with those beliefs, it's not the time or the place to cause an issue over it.

doctoremma

magicbastarder wrote: »

if someone else is providing the food, it seems a bit churlish to complain. for example, if the other team were comprised of coeliacs, and they were supplying the food, it's fair for them to supply food everyone can eat.
you may be asking them to supply meat they have a religious objection to; whatever your issues with those beliefs, it's not the time or the place to cause an issue over it.

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that you cater only for yourself or your group. When you have guest, it's it your duty to ensure their needs are met, not only your own? I would agree that unless you have a serious objection, it would be churlish to complain for the sake of it though.

seamus

Gurgle wrote: »

I'm completely failing to see the point.
Muslims require their meat to be killed in a particular way, you don't.

What is there to be upset / indignant about?

It's particularly barbaric and inhumane.

I don't see any reason to complain on religious principles, so presuming you're happy with how halal meat is slaughtered, then there's not a whole lot to give out about.

At the end of the day, the club provides the food and you're not being forced to eat it. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to make a complaint/suggestion if you have good reason why you won't eat the halal stuff and would like an alternative option to be served.

Penn

I think the crux of the issue is this:

Of course, I don't have to eat it, but like I said the hospitality aspect of the game is important. No one expects that they would eat the sausage sandwiches that are traditional in my own club (and for which it it famed within North Dublin cricket as far as I understand) but other foods are provided. My objection is the lack of reciprocation.

The non-Muslim clubs have non-halal meats but also provides something else the Muslims can eat, whereas the Muslim clubs are only providing halal meats with no alternative (if I'm understanding this correctly).

I think you're right on principle, but to make an issue of it might be an over-reaction. If there's nothing there you can eat, is it possible to bring your own food? Maybe seeing you bring your own food might subtly hint to them that, while they don't need to provided non-halal meats which would conflict with their religion, they should still attempt to provide some alternative

magicbastarder

doctoremma wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that you cater only for yourself or your group. When you have guest, it's it your duty to ensure their needs are met, not only your own?

but if they are providing halal food, and you can eat it, it's easiest just to provide halal food. especially if they have an issue with non-halal food.

you don't expect to sit down as a guest in a jewish household and expect them to serve ham to you.

doctoremma

magicbastarder wrote: »

but if they are providing halal food, and you can eat it, it's easiest just to provide halal food. especially if they have an issue with non-halal food.

Agree, but have yet to ascertain why the OP doesn't want to eat it. I wouldn't support him boycotting it in protest at the religious aspect but I would support him if he had an ethical objection to halal meat production.

magicbastarder wrote: »

you don't expect to sit down as a guest in a jewish household and expect them to serve ham to you.

No, of course, but I DO expect a host to provide something I can eat with clear conscience.

Gurgle

seamus wrote: »

It's particularly barbaric and inhumane.

wikipedia wrote:

"This method of slaughtering animals consists of using a well sharpened knife to make a swift, deep incision that cuts the front of the throat, the carotid artery, wind pipe and jugular veins"

Doesn't sound that bad.

seamus

Gurgle wrote: »

Doesn't sound that bad.

Is it the method of execution you would choose for yourself? It takes about a minute for the animal to bleed out, while it's held in place and struggling.

doctoremma

seamus wrote: »

Is it the method of execution you would choose for yourself? It takes about a minute for the animal to bleed out, while it's held in place and struggling.

I've read the papers (science ones, not PETA propaganda). It takes longer than a minute for cows to lose consciousness and bleed out.

Will dig them out for you.

ETA: removed my assertion of 7+ minutes. I had remembered a stat regarding 7% of cattle.

Gurgle

seamus wrote: »

Is it the method of execution you would choose for yourself? It takes about a minute for the animal to bleed out, while it's held in place and struggling.

Hardly a full minute of consciousness with the windpipe, jugular and cartoid cut?

Better than electrocution, stoning or hanging anyway.

Given a straight-up 'how would you like to die' after sentencing, I'd probably opt for a free-fall from 10,000 feet with a bottle of whiskey in one hand and a joint in the other.

Not that practical for a slaughterhouse, though it would make for nice tender steak. Of course meat-beasties don't have opposable thumbs so could appreciate neither the whiskey nor the joint. Also (afaik) farm animals rarely shown much interest in scenery or adrenaline sports.

Dades

Actually, if this is only the case where the host club (and not legspin's) is providing halal food to cater for it's majority Muslim players, then so be it. Their turf, their rules.

So unless there's a very strong objection on animal cruelty grounds, which I suspect is unlikely given the fame of the usual sausage sandwiches, then I would put up and shut up.

robindch

Moonbaby wrote: »

Do you have an objection to the cruelty involved in halal slaughter? Otherwise, I think your being petty.

I don't quite see how it's petty. If somebody's extending hospitality to somebody else, then it's incumbent on the host to make sure that the guest feels welcome and looked after -- basic sociability really. Anything else, and the host just isn't making much of an effort at being a good host.

18AD

Most importantly of all, is the halal food nice?

Mickeroo

I'd leave it be. If they set the club up in the first place then it's up to them what food they serve.

endacl

I think we have to pick our battles, legspin. Don't think this is one.

Pack a rasher sambo. That'll show 'em! And it can be hard to ignore those samosas...

magicbastarder

endacl wrote: »

Pack a rasher sambo. That'll show 'em! And it can be hard to ignore those samosas...

rasher sambos are way overrated. sausage sandwiches all the way.

oldrnwisr

Gurgle wrote: »

Hardly a full minute of consciousness with the windpipe, jugular and cartoid cut?

Judge for yourself.

Halal slaughter

Regular slaughter

I am not embedding these videos because they may be distressing for some and they are probably NSFW.

While the specific circumstances of the OP surround the notion of reciprocity, I think Halal is something worth taking a stand against anyway. While those of us who eat meat should not shy away from the reality of the abattoir process, I think that we should, IMO, where possible, be committed to minimising the suffering of these animals and choose higher welfare meat wherever and whenever we can.

I don't think that Halal is any better or worse than battery farming of chicken because you're only replacing one motivation with another but is not something that any of us should condone.

endacl

Hold on a minute legspin! Didn't we sit in a certain establishment on camden street one evening during Ramadan this year? With a load of Muslim families breaking their fast? I had a kebab. So did you. A tasty one. Presumably a tasty halal one! What have we done?!? As I recall...

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

Actually, if this is only the case where the host club (and not legspin's) is providing halal food to cater for it's majority Muslim players, then so be it. Their turf, their rules.

So unless there's a very strong objection on animal cruelty grounds, which I suspect is unlikely given the fame of the usual sausage sandwiches, then I would put up and shut up.

I agree with this. I mean, it's not like the OP cannot eat the halal meats anyway. Also, the OP made no reference to concerns of animal cruelty initially so I think approaching the hosting Muslim club from that angle would be little more than a smokescreen.

Gurgle

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Judge for yourself.

Halal slaughter

Regular slaughter

I'll take your 'filmed by GAIA' and raise you a report from the Guardian here

according to an RSPCA fact sheet, 90% of animals killed for halal food in 2004 were stunned first. As in mainstream food production, the animal's throat is then cut

legspin

Thanks for the replies folks.

Now I have seen the answers I do believe it would not be right for me to object but that won't prevent it from rankling with me.

As Endacl pointed out I have no problem eating halal when it is by choice (and indeed when it is a kebab, if it's not halal it's not a proper kebab imo). It is the choice aspect that I have an issue with. If I go to eat a kebab that's my decision. Expecting me to eat a kebab because that's what you want to do would raise an objection here

I'm not sure though that saying I'm merely being churlish because of the religious aspect of the food is correct. Religion, in all it's varying levels of stupidity and ignorance needs to be countered. Saying that one can't eat a certain food because a god would be angered makes me boil. Life is hard enough without having to add that level of crass idiocy on top.

Hospitality is a two-way street though. If you have certain expectations as to how you want to be treated in my house, you had better return the favour if I'm in yours.

magicbastarder

legspin wrote: »

As Endacl pointed out I have no problem eating halal when it is by choice (and indeed when it is a kebab, if it's not halal it's not a proper kebab imo). It is the choice aspect that I have an issue with. If I go to eat a kebab that's my decision. Expecting me to eat a kebab because that's what you want to do would raise an objection here

i think you're being extremely churlish here. they're probably serving you perfectly palatable food, and your objection is that that's the food that acceptable to them from a religious point of view?

Mickeroo

If you've no problem eating halal from a kebab then I don't see why you have a problem here at all tbh...it's just meat at the end of the day.

18AD

Your objection seems pretty groundless to be honest.

The food is nice but there's not enough choice? How exactly would you even go about complaining about that?

"I like the food, but I want more choice. I want more different food I like."

seamus

Coming from my point of view as a vegetarian, if I ran such a club where all or the majority of my players were veggie, I would see no reason to provide meat to the visiting team just because that's what they'd like. They're perfectly able and willing to eat vegetarian food, so there's no good reason to provide something extra just because.

I'm aware that's a little bit of a hand-grenade because someone is going to make a comment about "forcing beliefs", but it's exactly the same situation as described in the OP. Food is provided, the OP can eat it, so there's no problem.

endacl

seamus wrote: »

Coming from my point of view as a vegetarian, if I ran such a club where all or the majority of my players were veggie, I would see no reason to provide meat to the visiting team just because that's what they'd like.

First they came for the vegetablists....

Penn

seamus wrote: »

Coming from my point of view as a vegetarian, if I ran such a club where all or the majority of my players were veggie, I would see no reason to provide meat to the visiting team just because that's what they'd like. They're perfectly able and willing to eat vegetarian food, so there's no good reason to provide something extra just because.

I'm aware that's a little bit of a hand-grenade because someone is going to make a comment about "forcing beliefs", but it's exactly the same situation as described in the OP. Food is provided, the OP can eat it, so there's no problem.

I agree. I'm told I'm a fussy eater (whereas I prefer to think I'm a very simplistic eater: Meat + Spuds/bread and I'm fine), so I know if I went somewhere only serving vegetarian food, I'd hate it. But at the same time, you can never cater to everyone's tastes. Offer as wide a selection as you can reasonably offer, and if someone (like me) still doesn't like it, it's their (my) fault.

endacl

When the Moslem team comes to play, are they required to eat sausage (Freudian implication spotted Let it go...), or is there a halal option provided? Just out of interest?

Penn

endacl wrote: »

When the Moslem team comes to play, are they required to eat sausage (Freudian implication spotted Let it go...), or is there a halal option provided? Just out of interest?

legspin wrote: »

No one expects that they would eat the sausage sandwiches that are traditional in my own club (and for which it it famed within North Dublin cricket as far as I understand) but other foods are provided. My objection is the lack of reciprocation.

Not sure what the other foods are, but it would seem measures are taken by the non-Muslim clubs to accommodate the Muslim teams

Gurgle

Penn wrote: »

Not sure what the other foods are, but it would seem measures are taken by the non-Muslim clubs to accommodate the Muslim teams

Non Muslim club provides sausage sandwiches and 'other foods'. What other foods? Are they making a special effort to suit Muslims, by providing certified Halal meat alongside the sausage sandwiches? Or do they always serve salad sandwiches too?

Muslims have a religious objection to non-halal meats.
Non-Muslims don't have a religious objection to halal meats.

Muslim club provides halal meats, everyone (except vegetarians) can eat.
Whats the problem?

doctoremma

seamus wrote: »

Coming from my point of view as a vegetarian, if I ran such a club where all or the majority of my players were veggie, I would see no reason to provide meat to the visiting team just because that's what they'd like. They're perfectly able and willing to eat vegetarian food, so there's no good reason to provide something extra just because.

I'm aware that's a little bit of a hand-grenade because someone is going to make a comment about "forcing beliefs", but it's exactly the same situation as described in the OP.

I was once discussing the possibility of my wedding being a vegetarian-only affair (it was only discussion, I didn't have any intention of doing it). The person I was talking to said he would complain very vocally to me in person and refuse to eat anything, on the premise that I was forcing my beliefs on him. Okey-dokey. After a little more probing, I had him admit that he wouldn't entertain the idea of any such protest if the motivating factor was religious (i.e. Jain or such). In his words, "a religious motivation for vegetarianism is more worthy of respect than a non-religious reason for vegetarianism". WTF?

endacl

Penn wrote: »

Not sure what the other foods are, but it would seem measures are taken by the non-Muslim clubs to accommodate the Muslim teams

Note to self. Read, don't skim...

oldrnwisr

Gurgle wrote: »

I'll take your 'filmed by GAIA' and raise you a report from the Guardian here

Thanks for that Gurgle.

While the RSPCA factsheet itself doesn't make for hopeful reading, particularly the FAWC report recommendations, the problem seems to be minimal (i.e. 10% of Halal slaughter).

However, the really worrying thing is that the government, according to the factsheet, have yet to implement the report's recommendations which suggests that they are prioritising religious beliefs over animal welfare, which is unfortunate.

Kooli

18AD wrote: »

Your objection seems pretty groundless to be honest.

The food is nice but there's not enough choice? How exactly would you even go about complaining about that?

"I like the food, but I want more choice. I want more different food I like."

No it's one step further actually.

"I like the food, but I want more choice. I want more different food I like. But for it to count it has to be food that you can't eat."

legspin

Kooli wrote: »

No it's one step further actually.

"I like the food, but I want more choice. I want more different food I like. But for it to count it has to be food that you can't eat."

No it's not. It has nothing to do with liking or not liking the food and for you to suggest otherwise is at the very least putting your opinion in my mouth.

It is why do you expect me to eat your food when you won't eat mine for a reason that is essentially a nasty, small-minded and petty superstition when your food has been prepared with that superstition in mind. I don't mind you eating it but don't force it upon me.
And before anyone jumps up and down saying I'm not being forced, it is considered exceptionally bad manners and a a breach of ettiquette to turn your nose up at the food prepared by the home team.
Toleration works both ways or not at all.

Mickeroo

legspin wrote: »

No it's not. It has nothing to do with liking or not liking the food and for you to suggest otherwise is at the very least putting your predjudice in my mouth.

It is why do you expect me to eat your food when you won't eat mine for a reason that is essentially a nasty, small-minded and petty superstition when your food has been prepared with that superstition in mind. I don't mind you eating it but don't force it upon me.
And before anyone jumps up and down saying I'm not being forced, it is considered exceptionally bad manners and a a breach of ettiquette to turn your nose up at the food prepared by the home team.
Toleration works both ways or not at all.

But what difference does it make to you if it was prepared with the petty superstition in mind? It will still taste the same sure.

doctoremma

legspin wrote: »

It is why do you expect me to eat your food when you won't eat mine for a reason that is essentially a nasty, small-minded and petty superstition when your food has been prepared with that superstition in mind. I don't mind you eating it but don't force it upon me.

So, do you not eat food if someone has said grace?

ShooterSF

seamus wrote: »

Coming from my point of view as a vegetarian, if I ran such a club where all or the majority of my players were veggie, I would see no reason to provide meat to the visiting team just because that's what they'd like. They're perfectly able and willing to eat vegetarian food, so there's no good reason to provide something extra just because.

I'm aware that's a little bit of a hand-grenade because someone is going to make a comment about "forcing beliefs", but it's exactly the same situation as described in the OP. Food is provided, the OP can eat it, so there's no problem.

I'd be more concerned about being considered a poor host to be fair. If I have people over I'd try and make sure there was a decent mix. Your scenario wouldn't be much different than me providing sausage sambos (mmmm) because I'd be happy with just those and then suggesting anyone that doesn't eat meat can pick the sausages off or I'll make them a butter sambo. It's not wrong and not enough to be worth making a scene about but both of us would probably eat before hand if we bothered attending more of each others parties.

As for the OP I'd go with Penn's suggestion, pack some sausage sambos and if asked politely say you're a fussy eater.

legspin

Mickeroo wrote: »

But what difference does it make to you if it was prepared with the petty superstition in mind? It will still taste the same sure.

It's the just hospitalitly and toleration aspect of it. I don't expect anyone to conform to my dietary rules (which are non-existant in fairness) but don't expect me to conform to yours to assuage your prejudice is all I am trying to say. How nice or not the food is has never been an issue.