advice needed

amjc1974

Hi all,

Im new here amd im considering taking up shooting. Im thinking of getting a .22 rifle with a scope and moderator. Ive just a few questions to ask.

A) will joining the local gun club be sufficent in obtaining a gun licence instead of joining a shooting range.( i presume the local gun club have access to lands where their members can shoot)

should i wait until i recieve the approval letter before i purchase a gun safe (i dont want to be stuck with a safe if i dont get a licence)

C) if my licence wasnt approved is the fifty percent deposit on a gun refundable

D) would there be any reason that a first time licence application for a rifle not be granted,and if so are there ways of appealing the decision.

My shooting would consist of rabbit shooting and practicing on targets.

Your expertise in any of my queries would welcomed.

Witcher

amjc1974 wrote: »

Hi all,

Im new here amd im considering taking up shooting. Im thinking of getting a .22 rifle with a scope and moderator. Ive just a few questions to ask.

A) will joining the local gun club be sufficent in obtaining a gun licence instead of joining a shooting range.( i presume the local gun club have access to lands where their members can shoot)

should i wait until i recieve the approval letter before i purchase a gun safe (i dont want to be stuck with a safe if i dont get a licence)

C) if my licence wasnt approved is the fifty percent deposit on a gun refundable

D) would there be any reason that a first time licence application for a rifle not be granted,and if so are there ways of appealing the decision.

My shooting would consist of rabbit shooting and practicing on targets.

Your expertise in any of my queries would welcomed.

Membership of a gun club is reason enough to get a licence

You need to have the safe in before you even apply for the licence as you have to confirm you have complied with the security regs and the Gardai may want to inspect the safe.

No, if you have a reason to have the firearm, the security etc it shoud go through fine.

You shouldn't need a 50% deposit on the gun, I've only ever left €50. Either way it is refundable.

Remember it's illegal to shoot targets outside of an authorised range:)

amjc1974

Blay wrote: »

amjc1974 wrote: »

Hi all,

Im new here amd im considering taking up shooting. Im thinking of getting a .22 rifle with a scope and moderator. Ive just a few questions to ask.

A) will joining the local gun club be sufficent in obtaining a gun licence instead of joining a shooting range.( i presume the local gun club have access to lands where their members can shoot)

should i wait until i recieve the approval letter before i purchase a gun safe (i dont want to be stuck with a safe if i dont get a licence)

C) if my licence wasnt approved is the fifty percent deposit on a gun refundable

D) would there be any reason that a first time licence application for a rifle not be granted,and if so are there ways of appealing the decision.

My shooting would consist of rabbit shooting and practicing on targets.

Your expertise in any of my queries would welcomed.

Membership of a gun club is reason enough to get a licence

You need to have the safe in before you even apply for the licence as you have to confirm you have complied with the security regs and the Gardai may want to inspect the safe.

No, if you have a reason to have the firearm, the security etc it shoud go through fine.

You shouldn't need a 50% deposit on the gun, I've only ever left €50. Either way it is refundable.

Remember it's illegal to shoot targets outside of an authorised range:)

Thanks for the reply.....

Just a quick one on the targets....is it still illeagle to shoot targets on land owned by a relative of mine?

Also on the gun safe....ive heard of some guys installing safes in attics...would the change in tempreture in attics affect the items being stored there?

Cass

Any target shooting, ANY, outside of an authorised range is illegal.

As for the storage location. Humidity, cold, heat will have an effect on the firearms condition. Between causing warping of the wooden stock, to a build up of moisture on the metal. There are ways to prevent this. Such as a de-humidifier in the safe, not storing in the attic, etc.

amjc1974

Ezridax wrote: »

Any target shooting, ANY, outside of an authorised range is illegal.

As for the storage location. Humidity, cold, heat will have an effect on the firearms condition. Between causing warping of the wooden stock, to a build up of moisture on the metal. There are ways to prevent this. Such as a de-humidifier in the safe, not storing in the attic, etc.

Thanks for the advice guys

doyle61

Shooting targets on an unauthorized range isn't allowed op as the lads have already said BUT "zeroing" your rifle is allowed. Just make sure you have a safe spot with a good backstop etc

Witcher

doyle61 wrote: »

Shooting targets on an unauthorized range isn't allowed op as the lads have already said BUT "zeroing" your rifle is allowed. Just make sure you have a safe spot with a good backstop etc

Zeroing is technically still illegal, the guards just turn a blind eye to it because it's better that people know where the rifle is shooting.

Cass

doyle61 wrote: »

................. BUT "zeroing" your rifle is allowed...........

Zeroing is given no allowance under the law. Meaning it's as illegal as target shooting.

As Blay has already said most Gardaí exercise a common sense approach knowing that not everyone is a member of an authorised range, and for safety reasons they need to make sure the gun is zeroed.

There is no definition of zeroing either. However firing a few shots to make sure your gun is safe would be fine. Having 3, 5, 10 lads with multiple firearms, at multiple distances, well that would be a hard sell.

Vizzy

Another point to remember is that many gun clubs have permission for "shotgun shooting" only.
You might need to get separate permisssion from farmers to use a rifle on their land.
Shouldn't be a problem as most farmers will be delighted for you to shoot vermin for them.

doyle61

Ezridax wrote: »

doyle61 wrote: »

................. BUT "zeroing" your rifle is allowed...........

Zeroing is given no allowance under the law. Meaning it's as illegal as target shooting.

As Blay has already said most Gardaí exercise a common sense approach knowing that not everyone is a member of an authorised range, and for safety reasons they need to make sure the gun is zeroed.

There is no definition of zeroing either. However firing a few shots to make sure your gun is safe would be fine. Having 3, 5, 10 lads with multiple firearms, at multiple distances, well that would be a hard sell.

Well if zeroing is given no allowance under law where does it say that it's illegal to zero a rifle on private land. It's illegal to set up an unauthorized range in this country so as you said 3,5 or 10 lads would be hard to explain as that's target practice BUT for 1 or 2 lads about to head out hunting and needing to confirm their zero well far as im concerned their exercising a bit of safety in making sure their going to be on target.
Also to every rifle shooter here, I'll bet my car out on the driveway that a good 95% of ye have zeroed or informally punched paper on private land or callit what ye like but the vast majority of us did and do it and to take the high moral ground is ridiculous

Witcher

doyle61 wrote: »

Well if zeroing is given no allowance under law where does it say that it's illegal to zero a rifle on private land. It's illegal to set up an unauthorized range in this country so as you said 3,5 or 10 lads would be hard to explain as that's target practice BUT for 1 or 2 lads about to head out hunting and needing to confirm their zero well far as im concerned their exercising a bit of safety in making sure their going to be on target.
Also to every rifle shooter here, I'll bet my car out on the driveway that a good 95% of ye have zeroed or informally punched paper on private land or callit what ye like but the vast majority of us did and do it and to take the high moral ground is ridiculous

It doesn't mention zeroing being illegal it says any target shooting has to take place on an authorised range. So if you're shooting a target outside a range for any reason, it's illegal. Nobody is taking the moral highground, it's better that the OP know what is illegal and what isn't. Regardless of what anyone likes to think or what their friends have said etc etc...target shooting or zeroing of a rifle outside of a range is prohibited plain and simple. As has been said..the Gardai turn a blind eye to the latter in the interests of safety but it is illegal.

Cass

@ doyle61. - Cool your jets. No one is taking any moral high ground. I'm elaborating on what was already said so the OP knows what you are suggesting, while it is done by people, is still illegal.

You said to zero a rifle is "allowed". There is a difference between the Gardaí choosing to take no action, and it being legal. So telling people that zeroing a rifle is allowed is wrong. I'm sure most have checked their rifles at some point, and the Gardaí know it goes on so it's a case of no one talking about the Elephant in the room.

The firearms act makes shooting at targets outside an authorised range illegal. However the lack of what constitutes zeroing/target shooting in the Act is the issue. There needs to be a universally agreed upon definition by the DoJ in conjunction with all the shooting organisations. That will be a serious hardship due to the different disciplines, and the targets used.

Also because you, and others do it without consequences does not mean others will "get away with it".

amjc1974

Ezridax wrote: »

@ doyle61. - Cool your jets. No one is taking any moral high ground. I'm elaborating on what was already said so the OP knows what you are suggesting, while it is done by people, is still illegal.

You said to zero a rifle is "allowed". There is a difference between the Gardaí choosing to take no action, and it being legal. So telling people that zeroing a rifle is allowed is wrong. I'm sure most have checked their rifles at some point, and the Gardaí know it goes on so it's a case of no one talking about the Elephant in the room.

The firearms act makes shooting at targets outside an authorised range illegal. However the lack of what constitutes zeroing/target shooting in the Act is the issue. There needs to be a universally agreed upon definition by the DoJ in conjunction with all the shooting organisations. That will be a serious hardship due to the different disciplines, and the targets used.

Also because you, and others do it without consequences does not mean others will "get away with it".

I didnt want to be opening a can of worms here lads but you say that its illegal to zero a rifle on private land,do i have to join a rifle range in order to do this because ive been looking on the net at some of them in my area and the membership fees for the first year are 600 euro. Seems a bit excessive to join just to zero a rifle!!

Cass

There is no can of worms. This issue comes up regularly. It's more of case of if something goes on long enough with enough people doing it the impression that it's okay or in this case legal seems to creep in.

What happens in the real world is none of our concern. We are not An Gardaí. It is not our responsibility to stop such goings on, nor are we here to dictate to anyone. We only suggest the best, legal, course of action. After that it is up to the individual what they do.

It only becomes an issue when people discuss illegal activity on an open forum. that is against the forum charter.

tac foley

amjc1974 wrote: »

Seems a bit excessive to join just to zero a rifle!!

Sir, nobody has ever mentioned that rifle shooting was a cheap pastime in which to indulge.

Joining any gun club where rifles are shot, as opposed to shotguns and air rifles, can only be a good thing to do, regardless of the fact that it is going to cost you money.

ANY technically-challenging and potentially dangerous sport or hobby is going to cost you money, so, IMO, it's a good idea to spend it where necessary to enable you state on your application that -

1. You ARE a member of such-and-such gun club.

2. You HAVE undertaken the appropriate familiarisation requirements for the type of firearm that is your choice...

3. ...and have therefore been assessed as a safe pair of hands to be permitted to have a potentially lethal device in your control.

Apart from those points I noted above, shooting, for 99.99% of those who take part, is a social sport, where you can meet and make friends for life whose interests closely follow your own.

Joining a club will also acquaint you with many of the other aspects of shooting that may have previously been unknown to you, and serve to open up new areas of interest within the sport.

tac

amjc1974

Ezridax wrote: »

There is no can of worms. This issue comes up regularly. It's more of case of if something goes on long enough with enough people doing it the impression that it's okay or in this case legal seems to creep in.

What happens in the real world is none of our concern. We are not An Gardaí. It is not our responsibility to stop such goings on, nor are we here to dictate to anyone. We only suggest the best, legal, course of action. After that it is up to the individual what they do.

It only becomes an issue when people discuss illegal activity on an open forum. that is against the forum charter.

Im sorry that you think im breaking the forum charter but as a potential newbie to the sport these are the questions i need answers to.

amjc1974

tac foley wrote: »

amjc1974 wrote: »

Seems a bit excessive to join just to zero a rifle!!

Sir, nobody has ever mentioned that rifle shooting was a cheap pastime in which to indulge.

Joining any gun club where rifles are shot, as opposed to shotguns and air rifles, can only be a good thing to do, regardless of the fact that it is going to cost you money.

ANY technically-challenging and potentially dangerous sport or hobby is going to cost you money, so, IMO, it's a good idea to spend it where necessary to enable you state on your application that -

1. You ARE a member of such-and-such gun club.

2. You HAVE undertaken the appropriate familiarisation requirements for the type of firearm that is your choice...

3. ...and have therefore been assessed as a safe pair of hands to be permitted to have a potentially lethal device in your control.

Apart from those points I noted above, shooting, for 99.99% of those who take part, is a social sport, where you can meet and make friends for life whose interests closely follow your own.

Joining a club will also acquaint you with many of the other aspects of shooting that may have previously been unknown to you, and serve to open up new areas of interest within the sport.

tac

I am well aware of the costs involved in taking up shooting sir which you have pointed out.

Im was just making the point that 600euro seemed a bit much, especially in the times we live in today.

tac foley

amjc1974 wrote: »

I am well aware of the costs involved in taking up shooting sir which you have pointed out.

Im was just making the point that 600euro seemed a bit much, especially in the times we live in today.

I fully agree that 600eu is a lot of money, but at the moment there is actually nowhere else in the Republic has has ALL the facilities that are to be found at the Midlands, and THIS is what you are paying for.

Bearing in mind that with the Midlands you have a range that has EVERYTHING, it would be helpful if you were to advise the people on this forum of your approximate location so that they might recommend somewhere has has ALL the facilities that you need, and NONE that you don't.

tac
www.vcrai.com

amjc1974

tac foley wrote: »

amjc1974 wrote: »

I am well aware of the costs involved in taking up shooting sir which you have pointed out.

Im was just making the point that 600euro seemed a bit much, especially in the times we live in today.

I fully agree that 600eu is a lot of money, but at the moment there is actually nowhere else in the Republic has has ALL the facilities that are to be found at the Midlands, and THIS is what you are paying for.

Bearing in mind that with the Midlands you have a range that has EVERYTHING, it would be helpful if you were to advise the people on this forum of your approximate location so that they might recommend somewhere has has ALL the facilities that you need, and NONE that you don't.

tac
www.vcrai.com

Can you explain why you have "all" and "none" in capitals please, i came on this forum to seek advise about rifle shooting and not to be patronised.

Cass

amjc1974 wrote: »

Im sorry that you think im breaking the forum charter but as a potential newbie to the sport these are the questions i need answers to.

I really wish everyone would calm down, and stop taking everything that is said as a challenge or chastisation.

Asking a question is not a problem. If it's illegal we'll tell you. However discussing illegal topics, that are either known to be so is against the rules. IOW if you ask can i target shoot on private land then that is fine. You'll get your answer. However if you start to talk about the shooting session you and yer mates had on private land, etc then that's illegal, and will be removed.

amjc1974 wrote: »

Im was just making the point that 600euro seemed a bit much, especially in the times we live in today.

If your only purpose for joining a range is to zero your gun then yes. Any amount of money is too much. However no range makes allowances for people that only want to use it once or twice a year to zero. They have a membership fee, and it's for a year. How often you make use of the facilities is up to you.

amjc1974

Ezridax wrote: »

amjc1974 wrote: »

Im sorry that you think im breaking the forum charter but as a potential newbie to the sport these are the questions i need answers to.

I really wish everyone would calm down, and stop taking everything that is said as a challenge or chastisation.

Asking a question is not a problem. If it's illegal we'll tell you. However discussing illegal topics, that are either known to be so is against the rules. IOW if you ask can i target shoot on private land then that is fine. You'll get your answer. However if you start to talk about the shooting session you and yer mates had on private land, etc then that's illegal, and will be removed.

amjc1974 wrote: »

Im was just making the point that 600euro seemed a bit much, especially in the times we live in today.

If your only purpose for joining a range is to zero your gun then yes. Any amount of money is too much. However no range makes allowances for people that only want to use it once or twice a year to zero. They have a membership fee, and it's for a year. How often you make use of the facilities is up to you.

Before i joined this forum i had thought that target shooting on private land wasnt illegal,now that i have got the answer i now know that it is. I wont be posting anything illegal because i wont be doing it.

Cass

That's grand, and good to here.

My point here is your questions, and this thread is fine. How can people know, or learn if they don't ask. So there is no problem with anything you've written so far.

As i explained my only point about discussing illegal activity comes from two things.

1. Someone that knows what is being discussed is illegal yet continues to do so.
2. Someone that doesn't know, gets an answer but then others discuss the act involved rather than the logic behind it being illegal.

Point 1 is self explanatory. Point 2 is a little more awkward. This thread, and the posts in it were in response to your questions, and discussing why zeroing is illegal is allowed. I mean i personally think it's silly considerring a previous Minister admitted that he did not intend to "ban" zeroing in the Act, however his mistake and acknowledgment of that mistake doesn't count for crap when he does nothing to try and have it defined, and repealed.

We all know what goes on in real life.As said above we are not An Gardaí. So we cannot stop anything that goes on IRL. However this is a public forum and for ths safety and protection of both our members and the site we discourage discussion of illegal activity. Some people do it accidentally. Meaning they were unaware what they were discussing is illegal. Considering there are 18 Acts, 60+ SIs, and 2 EU directives i doubt anyone knows all the laws. This leads me back to my point above about something being done long enough that it is considered legal when in fact it's not.

Remember that you are never truly anonymous on any site.

amjc1974

Ezridax wrote: »

That's grand, and good to here.

My point here is your questions, and this thread is fine. How can people know, or learn if they don't ask. So there is no problem with anything you've written so far.

As i explained my only point about discussing illegal activity comes from two things.

1. Someone that knows what is being discussed is illegal yet continues to do so.
2. Someone that doesn't know, gets an answer but then others discuss the act involved rather than the logic behind it being illegal.

Point 1 is self explanatory. Point 2 is a little more awkward. This thread, and the posts in it were in response to your questions, and discussing why zeroing is illegal is allowed. I mean i personally think it's silly considerring a previous Minister admitted that he did not intend to "ban" zeroing in the Act, however his mistake and acknowledgment of that mistake doesn't count for crap when he does nothing to try and have it defined, and repealed.

We all know what goes on in real life.As said above we are not An Gardaí. So we cannot stop anything that goes on IRL. However this is a public forum and for ths safety and protection of both our members and the site we discourage discussion of illegal activity. Some people do it accidentally. Meaning they were unaware what they were discussing is illegal. Considering there are 18 Acts, 60+ SIs, and 2 EU directives i doubt anyone knows all the laws. This leads me back to my point above about something being done long enough that it is considered legal when in fact it's not.

Remember that you are never truly anonymous on any site.

Fair play...your points will be heeded. As a total outsider to shooting theres a lot to learn and to take in. I used to do a lot of fishing in the past and respect for laws and regulations were foremost in my persuits. Ive always had an interest in shooting and im looking forward to learning about the sport and enjoying the countryside again.

tac foley

amjc1974 wrote: »

Can you explain why you have "all" and "none" in capitals please, i came on this forum to seek advise about rifle shooting and not to be patronised.

Ah, there has been something lost in translation here. I'm certainly not here to patronise anybody, I assure you. My point is that every kind of shooting is available at the Midlands, from air rifle up to 1200 yard target, and you might be better advised to look for a range that just covered your particular area of interest - one that, because it has less facilities than the Midlands, will therefore be a less expensive proposition for joining. At the Midlands, without doubt the finest set of ranges in Ireland, you are necessarily paying for the use of every facility there, most of which you don't need - at the moment.

My capitals are emphasis, not an attempt to patronise you. Perhaps simply italicising them might have been better.

I respectfully suggest that you try and assume [rightly] that people here, me included, are trying hard to help you, not to make you look like a plawk.

tac

doyle61

Ok I've been googling and can't find it anywhere where it says it's illegal to zero a rifle on private land, can someone put a like up to show where it says it is. All I came across was the regulations on ranges but as I said I know it's illegal to do target practices on an unauthorized range but it says it nowhere here about zeroing

Witcher

doyle61 wrote: »

Ok I've been googling and can't find it anywhere where it says it's illegal to zero a rifle on private land, can someone put a like up to show where it says it is. All I came across was the regulations on ranges but as I said I know it's illegal to do target practices on an unauthorized range but it says it nowhere here about zeroing

How do you zero a rifle? By shooting a target...target shooting-->illegal.

It's a blanket ban..any target shooting is illegal...any firing of a rifle at an inanimate object in a field is illegal. Whether you're doing it to zero..for fun..to celebrate Christmas...whatever..if you're outside of a range..you're breaking the law. Nobody is feeding you bs here.

doyle61

You still havnt shown a link to show where zeroing a rifle for hunting is illegal. If you could ild say it'ld be posted up double quick time.
And here you; who gives you the right to call what I post bs.

Witcher

doyle61 wrote: »

You still havnt shown a link to show where zeroing a rifle for hunting is illegal. If you could ild say it'ld be posted up double quick time.
And here you; who gives you the right to call what I post bs.

I can't give you that link because it doesn't exist...what does exist is a section in the firearm act stating that target shooting is illegal. The DOJ blanket banned it i.e they don't give a crap what you're doing it for it's illegal. The Minister stated a few years back that it wasn't his intention to ban zeroing but they have never changed it so it continues to be against the law.

I didn't say you were talking bs, I said nobody is feeding you bs ie nobody is lying to you.

doyle61

Fair enough about the bs thing, read it wrong lad.
But anyway back to the topic, you said the minister said he had no intention of banning zeroing well that's answer enough; zeroing a rifle is not classed as target practice. A friend of mine has a degree in law and was saying before about the SPIRIT a said law was written in. Because the minister has a distinction between zeroing (doesnt want to ban it) and target practice ie unauthorized range the spirit of the law would be brought in here. Just because it doesnt have its clear nicely segmented section under the statute books doesnt make it illegal because something similar but TOTALLY different is mentioned ie target shooting in unauthorized range.

Vizzy

This seems to be going round in circles,a bit.
As Blay says there is no link to show that "zeroing a rifle on private ground is illegal" doesn' t need to be cos the Act says that target shooting(be it paper or bean tins) is illegal outside a range.
I think you could dissect each Act and conclude that X ot Y is not expressly illegal so therefore it must be legal
Afraid not.

Put it another way if you are out tomorrow and you fire a few shots at paper targets to zero a rifle and a passer by calls the Gardai to say that "there is a guy target shooting in a field",what will the Gardai say/do when they arrive and you tell them I just fired a few shots to zero the rifle.
Contrast this against a situation when you spend the afternoon plinking at cans,firing 50 or 60 rounds and when the Gardai arrive you say "well there is no law against it "
Gardai are human and will use common sense in most cases but my advice would be don't push it.

Edit: May have a bit of crossover with doyle61 post

amjc1974

tac foley wrote: »

amjc1974 wrote: »

Can you explain why you have "all" and "none" in capitals please, i came on this forum to seek advise about rifle shooting and not to be patronised.

Ah, there has been something lost in translation here. I'm certainly not here to patronise anybody, I assure you. My point is that every kind of shooting is available at the Midlands, from air rifle up to 1200 yard target, and you might be better advised to look for a range that just covered your particular area of interest - one that, because it has less facilities than the Midlands, will therefore be a less expensive proposition for joining. At the Midlands, without doubt the finest set of ranges in Ireland, you are necessarily paying for the use of every facility there, most of which you don't need - at the moment.

My capitals are emphasis, not an attempt to patronise you. Perhaps simply italicising them might have been better.

I respectfully suggest that you try and assume [rightly] that people here, me included, are trying hard to help you, not to make you look like a plawk.

tac

Fair point there tac...maybe i took it up wrong and that to me it looked what i said...im grateful rhat you and other members have given me advice that i didnt know before i joined here. I would of been shooting tin cans to beat the band otherwise!!....now i know i cant. I dont want to get off on the wrong foot with anyone here including yourself so on that note apology sent.

tac foley

amjc1974 wrote: »

Fair point there tac...maybe i took it up wrong and that to me it looked what i said...im grateful rhat you and other members have given me advice that i didnt know before i joined here. I would of been shooting tin cans to beat the band otherwise!!....now i know i cant. I dont want to get off on the wrong foot with anyone here including yourself so on that note apology sent.

Sir - there is absolutely no need for any kind of apology. The internet is not our friend when it comes to writing nuances and subtleties!

I hope that you get sorted out -for sure, it's not for want of advice on this forum. The breadth of experience here is immense, especially coping with the tortuous mazes that make up the present firearms laws and legislation in the RoI.

Best

tac
vcrai.com