surface ?

Torqay

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I'm sure they'd like the Apple way where you own the platform and get a slice of the app store action.

That is the whole point of turning an operating system into a retail platform, but unlike Apple, who sold a few hundred million tablets and smartphones, Microsoft has sold a meager 700,000 Windows RT devices, so app store revenue is close to zilch. To make matters worse, the "partners" have jumped ship because there's nothing in it for them, they don't benefit from Windows Store sales and yet they have to cough up $85 for the Windows/Office RT OEM license.

And now Google is selling the Nexus 10, currently the fastest tablet with arguably the best display, from $400... who in their right mind would want to spend $500 on a Surface RT? As our resident Radioshack sales rep would tell us, in the end it's all about the price and it just is not right.

Capt'n Midnight

Torqay wrote: »

That is the whole point of turning an operating system into a retail platform, but unlike Apple, who sold a few hundred million tablets and smartphones, Microsoft has sold a meager 700,000 Windows RT devices, so app store revenue is close zilch. To make matters worse, the "partners" have jumped ship because there's nothing in it for them, they don't benefit from Windows Store sales and yet they have to cough up $85 for the Windows/Office RT OEM license.

That's still way behind the volumes of the cancelled HP touchpad
which ran webOS, Android and Linux (ARM)

Certainly if microsoft can get a table that integrates with all the corporate stuff they might have a justification for charging a premium price.

Overheal

Torqay wrote: »

And how exactly do you "underclock" a Core ULV processor?

By telling the OS to not draw more than x% of the CPU clock. You've played with the Advanced Power Options?

Yeah, it's called a stopwatch...

That is cute, but since that is entirely subjective benchmarking, I was looking for an objective benchmarking utility that runs any hardware under the same basic conditions.

Its main competitor, the Iconia W700 lasts almost twice as long on the battery and saves you 250 dollar (if you add the keyboard to the Surface). For $780 you'll get a tablet with the same Core i5, a BT keyboard and 8 hrs battery life, compared to that, Surface Pro is very unreasonable. And with the new line of 7W Core processors available to OEMs now, the first generation Surface Pro is probably be a very poor investment.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/14/acer-iconia-w700-review/

Worse, though: think of all the pieces you'll need to carry with you if you decide to take the W700 on the road. We've already mentioned three: the tablet, cradle and kickstand. But if you're going to be using this with the cradle, you'll probably also want the Bluetooth keyboard, which comes in the box. That's four. If you're using this in desktop mode, you'll also want some sort of wireless mouse or trackpad (not included in the box, sadly). That's five pieces. The AC adapter is six. Then there's the bundled faux-leather case, which fits the tablet only. Take that and you're up to seven. It's a lot to remember, and some of the pieces (the cradle, kickstand) don't lie flat, so they'll take up more space in your bag than a device with a regular ol' keyboard dock. And really, there wouldn't have been much of a downside if Acer went with that form factor instead: you'd get the cradle and keyboard in one piece, along with a built-in battery and a smattering of ports. The only thing you wouldn't be able to do is dock the tablet in portrait mode, which is fine by us.

Considering the Keyboard is the Cover and the Kickstand is built in, the Surface is far more portable. I don't know about you but I wouldnt want to carry that dock and keyboard around. In contrast the Surface does make it stupid-easy to carry a keyboard and stylus with you, both attach to the device pretty seamlessly.

I don't know where you're pulling the $780 price tag from. I see $999. That model has roughly the same core specs as the Surface Pro. The Pro meanwhile also supports pen-writing, which is a pretty big deal. I also don't see where the W700 lists an accelerometer or compass, though it presumably has a gyroscope as a given. But sure, throw a typecover in, and the 128GB surface is more than the W700, but it's also a bit more utilitarian. Couldn't honestly tell you what's really up though. W700 battery is 54Wh, the Pro is 42Wh. Real empirical benchmarking when both units are in the hands of reviewers will settle the truth.

Torqay

My bad, I was looking at the i3 variant (IMHO still plenty power to run your "corporate stuff" and lasts even longer than it's big brother on the battery)

When you're running out of juice after 4 hours, you don't care much for "real empirical benchmarking", all you want is a power outlet or a better battery.

Run y-cruncher (a CPU stress test) with different power plans and see how it goes. You probably won't have to wait 4 hours.

Torqay

Interesting analysis here.

The PC industry used to taunt Apple about their price premium but now the joke is on them.

It's crucial that the PC industry hits the strategic $399, $499, $599, and $699 starting price points. $399 starting price for an Atom based system with a standard 1366x768 display would be price competitive. At $699 starting price for a Haswell-based system and a retina class display, the unit would be competitive.

Some people will say I'm expecting too much for $699 but the Nexus 10 offers 2560x1600 resolution at the $399 price point. This is what consumers have come to expect and this is the new marketplace reality.

Bottom line, people willing to cough up $1,000+ for a first generation Windows 8 tablet now better have their head examined. With the new 7w SDP Ivy Bridge processors already being available to manufacturers and faster Atom and Haswell chips coming soon, I expect things to move fast and not in a direction where I can see Microsoft selling Surface Pro in big numbers. Launching a device when the shelf-life of the current CPU generation is coming to an end and the new stuff will be all the rage soon is quite unfortunate... Good luck with selling off the inventory and get Surface Pro 2 ready in the Summer.

Overheal

Hard Drive Analysis:

http://gizmodo.com/5982668/which-one-has-more-usable-space-the-128gb-surface-pro-or-the-128gb-macbook-air

Everyone's been making fun of the Surface Pro for being so stingy on hard drive space. The 128GB version of the Surface Pro only has 90GB of free space (originally reported to be 83GB but since boosted). Where the hell did the other 38 gigs go? Well, you could ask the same question to the 128GB version of the MacBook Air. The MBA only has 92GB of free space. What!

And get this. With a few tweaks (namely removing the recovery image), the Surface Pro 128GB actually has more usable space than the equivalent 128GB MacBook Air. Why's everyone making fun of Microsoft for hijacking space? HMM?

Ed Bott of ZDNet, and unapologetic Microsoft man, dug deep to determine the true difference in space between the Surface Pro and the MacBook Air. It's worth a read if you're into splitting bits from bytes and breaking down binary and base-10. Basically, Apple and Windows report disk size differently leading Microsoft too look worse than it actually is. [ZDNet]

Torqay

This your latest sales pitch? "Folks, why buy a Macbook Air when you get more disk space on a Surface Pro"... if you do away with the recovery partition, which according to Microsoft, you don't need anyway: Ideally, you will never need your recovery image.

Reasons for Surface Pro not going to fly off the shelves are plenty but low disk space is hardly one of them. Personally I think the issue of disk space available to the user is blown out of proportion (I have a little netbook with a 4 GB SSD, more than plenty, since it's got a SD expansion slot), although there's nothing wrong with a little bit of truth in advertising. Price ($1,130 and no "free" Office), timing (soon Ivy Bridge is old news) and the ridiculously short battery life will seal its fate.

Overheal

From the sound of it, the accessory spine supports external batteries/beefier keyboard docks.

Seal it's fate nothing. I was around when the first wave of tablets hit. You could argue that all of them were "duds" because none of them sold at launch. They all only said once their prices dropped. The product cycle was essentially that new shiny things sit on our shelves, get poked at by customers for a few months who seem to think its all not worth the price, then the next gen thing comes out, so they drop the price of the old one by a few points and they are all snatched up like someone announced they saw blood fall out of the sky. 2 years later, I still get people coming in trying to see if I still carry things like the XOOM, but **** me if anyone wanted to buy one when it was head to head with the iPad 2. HP Touchpad, exact same story. HP was just a ****ing idiot about it, they panicked and canceled the whole thing. Cue a huge fire sale, and now there are thousands of their pads on the 2nd hand market and they've become a tinkerer's wonderground for modding with android OS. Even if the surface doesnt sell like wildfire and the price drops, the unit is still a great piece of kit, and it and its descendents will be around for a while. There surely will be a Surface Pro 2.

Torqay

Didn't it's a bad peace of kit, did I? However, Surface Pro is clearly aimed at business people (a rather limited market by definition) and if they can't get nearly a days work out it then it is a fail. Who'd care if it was a millimeter thicker and a few ounces heavier, if the only battery lasted 8 hours. Because this and more is what you get out of a Nexus 10, an iPad or even its direct competitors, the Acer Iconia W700 and the Samsung Smart PC Pro. As the man said, "This is what consumers have come to expect and this is the new marketplace reality." And when you throw the new Atom tablets (which can also run "all your corporate stuff" and boast 13 hrs+ on the battery) into the mix then it's getting even more worrisome.

Overheal

The iPad and Nexus don't offer you x86 or x64 capabilities, and the W700 lacks a pen. The Samsung Ativ is an Atom, and thats great for lots of folks that don't care about getting anything done particularly fast. The only other comparable device, the Samsung Slate, has the same battery life. To add the battery life with the same performance you would require adding an extra half inch or more of thickness and at least an extra pound of weight, by which point the unit is not something you'd want to hold in your hands, certainly not for the length of time that the battery would then last. There, you have a triple-point between performance, ergonomics, and battery life.

Torqay

Overheal wrote: »

The Samsung Ativ is an Atom

No, the Samsung Ativ is a Core i5 tablet. Oh, and it comes with a stylus (S-Pen). Oh, and it lasts 8 hours on the battery. Oh, and it is thinner and lighter than the Surface Pro. There, you have a Windows 8 tablet with a pen, offering the same performance, better ergonomics and longer battery life.

Overheal

It depends on which Ative you mean. The 700T -Ah Samsung, you sexy bastards. They have been gaining providence quickly in the last year. It's an extra $200 though. Well, 80, Type cover. Hot damn. Microsoft is just getting cut out by the bigger mfrs with economy of scale on their side.

In general though Torq how feel you about these new Pro tablet PCs? I think these are the laptop killer. The 500T, while Atom, still has the pen and its only $600.

Overheal

Microsoft's online store is sold out of 128GB Pro's within hours of launch

http://surface.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/Content/pbPage.Surface_Pro?ESICaching=off

Torqay

WOW!!!

Oh wait, that doesn't say how many tablets they have sold... didn't they pull the same stunt with Surface RT back then, when it was sold out on pre-order within the hour? Of course, we now know that they have sold only 15% of their initial batch of 5 million units.

I say, hold your horses and wait for hard sales figures.

Torqay

Overheal wrote: »

Microsoft's online store is sold out of 128GB Pro's within hours of launch

http://surface.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/Content/pbPage.Surface_Pro?ESICaching=off

Just as a reminder:



And the rest is history...

Overheal

yep. We never got stock of them, other than the display models. *slow clap*

Torqay

You're not the only one, apparently stock was very limited at all major outlets... seems fishy and lackluster, if you're asking me. The likes of Ed Bott and Paul Thurrott are out there, telling us, "the market has spoken" I think it's a little bit too early, to declare victory.

But maybe Stan Shih had it right, when he claimed, Microsoft’s goal with the Surface isn’t to find success as a hardware vendor.

There will always be a market for Intel tablets, whether Microsoft is making them or anyone else, but they won't be selling to the masses. Microsoft should have have thrown all they had behind Windows RT, the real new thing. If they were serious about the tablet market, they should make an affordable tablet, get the product out in big numbers and tie consumers into their app/content ecosystem, for "free" if necessary but who in their right mind is biting for a 600 dollar tablet that hasn't much to offer aside from "free Office". If i'd be in the market for a 10" tablet and I see the Nexus 10 offering the most beautiful display and stellar battery life for $399 then give me one good reason why I should buy a Surface RT for $499 (which requires a $100 keyboard if I want to make good use of the "free" office suite). Just because it's a Microsoft product or because Windows Store* beats the hell out of Play Store? I think not. For a tablet that doesn't offer "x86 or x64 capabilities", the Surface RT insanely overpriced but if it was selling for $299, I might actually consider it.

* Of course, they now have a gazillion customers registered with Windows Store, but these are mostly PC users who only signed on because it's mandatory in order to get full functionality out of Windows 8 and grab a few freebies but the vast majority of them will hardly ever generate revenue. I think Microsoft is in a right mess of their own making right now.

Torqay

Just looked up the first "hands on" reviews. People getting about 3 hrs of juice out of the battery, but they expect a somewhat better battery performance under "less-trying" conditions. Well, let's hope so...

Overheal

well im three hours into my slate battery on 25% cpu cap, haven't noticed any decrease in performance while writing. still have 36% of my battery left.

Overheal

http://gizmodo.com/5983513/7-worst-battery-life+guzzling-gadgets

Torqay

An interesting device in search of a user

Tomk1

Surface touches down in Ireland
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2013/0214/1224330007973.html

Looks good, I like the keyboard cover as no fan of touchscreen.
note:

There is no release date yet for the Surface Pro in Ireland.

Torqay

Tomk1 wrote: »

Surface touches down in Ireland
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2013/0214/1224330007973.html

The Windows 8 tablet was made available just after midnight from Microsoft’s online store

LOL... IT and IT.

“We believe there is significant demand out there."

LOL... sales figures tell a somewhat different story.

war2k10

It looks nice it has the same type of appeal as the ipad, but..... they could have done more to make it stand out more. what are the price and specs set to look like

Torqay

war2k10 wrote: »

what are the price and specs set to look like

Surface RT 32 GB = €480
Surface RT 64 GB = €580

Add to that €130 for the keyboard cover and €40 for the charger. Up to 750 yoyos for a Windows tablet that can't run "Windows software"*, quite steep.

Surface Pro is not yet available in Europe, but Microsoft has launched a placeholder page for it, no info on prices yet.

* Apparently you can run "legacy apps" on Windows RT.

war2k10

Ye that is steep, if the pro was 750 or even 800 it would have a good chance, even when they were late in the game but there going to play into apple's/ androids hands with prices like that :O

Torqay

war2k10 wrote: »

Ye that is steep, if the pro was 750 or even 800 it would have a good chance

Not going to happen, if the RT pricing is anything to go by, it will be more like €880 for the Pro 64 GB and €980 for the 128 GB version.

war2k10 wrote: »

even when they were late in the game but there going to play into apple's/ androids hands with prices like that :O

And it's getting later by the day with the next generation of Core processors looming. I wouldn't be too surprised if they'll do a "Zune" and never sell Surface Pro outside the US. At least not the first batch with its poor battery life.

G-Money

Bought a Surface RT this week and I have to say I really like it. I was kinda planning to buy an iPad all along but realised that the only thing I really liked about the iPad was the range of apps that is available for it. In every other way I pretty much preferred the Surface. I like the kickstand, the fact it comes with a keyboard, has expandable storage, has a usb port and I prefer windows 8 metro to iOS.

I fully charged it on Tuesday evening when it arrived and had it on the charger for a while last night when copying a load to files onto it, but other than that I've been using it solely on the battery and it seems to be doing well so far.

What put me off waiting for the Pro was its more likely going to be more expensive that the RT, has fans that will kick in if it gets too hot which is one of my bug bears when it comes to laptops, also the battery life is apparently 5 hours at best.

micosoft

Have the RT for a month now. Can't see the point of the PRO as you may as well get a ultrabook with a decent keyboard and a screen that tilts to a comfortable angle (and not all the weight in the screen) and half decent battery life.

Hardware
My take after a few weeks use is that its a device slotting half way between ultrabook and tablet. I keep grabbing my MacBook Air (dual boot so ignore the OS part of this). It's roughly the same size when keyboard is bundled yet I get a backlit keyb, decent sized screen that I can tilt to any angle and most of all a really good touchpad (the one on either surface keyb is too small). And I don't really miss touchscreen in "laptop" mode as you have to move your hand. The angle is never quite right with the kickstand. Also disappointed you cannot charge (even trickle) from USB which is great with a lot of planes including USB chargers now.

OS
Totally jarring to go from the touch gui to the desktop. Perhaps when more apps are available. I'm really disappointed with the Office team that they did not create a touch interface for Office. Not having Outlook is a MASSIVE omission and the included mail client is terrible - the WinPho mail client is more powerful. Roll on Blue to update the OS but the MS apps folk need to get their fingers out and deliver touch office, outlook, visio (unbelivable - the app that would really show off a touch device) and project. The only proper app is OneNote.