surface ?

war2k10

When is surface supposed to come out ? and how much do you think it will cost ?

Torqay

war2k10 wrote: »

When is surface supposed to come out ? and how much do you think it will cost ?

Surface with Windows RT: October 24th.

Surface with Windows 8: Q1, 2013

war2k10 wrote: »

and how much do you think it will cost ?

Rumour has it, the Surface with ARM processor will be launched for $199, most likely bundled with a subscription, i.e. 2 yrs Office 365 or something like that.

The "real" Surface with Core iX ULV processor will be priced higher than the iPad, closer to Ultrabooks.

Grayson

Am I the only person who wants one of these?

Torqay

Grayson wrote: »

Am I the only person who wants one of these?

Priced at 500 yoyos for the basic model? There is that possibility...

The Surface hype has been dampened somewhat when the prices have been made public.

Torqay

Apparently Microsoft can't deliver in Europe. Some customers have received emails saying their order has been cancelled, others have been informed that their Surface RT will be delayed. MS apologised and sent them €50 vouchers for the Microsoft Store.

yoyo

Moved to Windows.

Torqay

Microsoft and their partners seem to do their level best to make Windows RT fail.

ASUS' Vivo Tab RT goes on sale in Europe for €599 (64GB), €729 with keyboard dock (which will also double the battery life to "up to" 16 hrs), 3G/4G capability cost €100 extra. The complete combo weighs 1.1 kg!

€829 for a "netbook" with ARM processor, touch screen and mobile broadband seems ridiculous. Although they come with free MS Office 2013 (a preview which can be upgraded when the final product is available next year) it's still a consumer gadget (the Home & Student license explicitly excludes commercial use).

For 600 yoyos less you'll get a real netbook (which can run the real MS Office) or some kick@ass Android tablet. What are they thinking? Insanely priced hybrids will hardly get them a foot into the door in the tablet market.

testicle

Torqay wrote: »

€829 for a "netbook" with ARM processor, touch screen and mobile broadband seems ridiculous. Although they come with free MS Office 2013 (a preview which can be upgraded when the final product is available next year) it's still a consumer gadget (the Home & Student license explicitly excludes commercial use).

Does your netbook have a touch screen? Office RT full version is available now by the way.

Torqay

testicle wrote: »

Does your netbook have a touch screen? Office RT full version is available now by the way.

A touchscreen isn't really ideal for MS Office (or why is it all RT tablets have some sort of physical keyboard, either in form of a cover or a dock) and does not exactly justify the price. All reviews I've seen so far mention the the preview of Office RT Home & Student, but it is readily available, all the better.

However, that's not really the point. If they want to get into the tablet market they shouldn't start pricing these gadgets at 500 yoyos or more. Who is going to buy all the fantastic apps and content in the Windows Store if nobody can afford the "shopping cart"?

You'll get quad-core Tegra tablets with a touchscreen for less then €200, The ASUS Transformer in a pretty much identical configuration with Android was €200 cheaper than the Vivo Tab RT. Windows tax again?

I understand that Microsoft would have crossed their partners, had they decided to sell RT tablets without profit or even subsidized, but Microsoft is late in the tablet market and those prices are hardly an incentive to make the switch from Android or iOS to Windows RT.

Overheal

Torqay wrote: »

Microsoft and their partners seem to do their level best to make Windows RT fail.

ASUS' Vivo Tab RT goes on sale in Europe for €599 (64GB), €729 with keyboard dock (which will also double the battery life to "up to" 16 hrs), 3G/4G capability cost €100 extra. The complete combo weighs 1.1 kg!

€829 for a "netbook" with ARM processor, touch screen and mobile broadband seems ridiculous. Although they come with free MS Office 2013 (a preview which can be upgraded when the final product is available next year) it's still a consumer gadget (the Home & Student license explicitly excludes commercial use).

For 600 yoyos less you'll get a real netbook (which can run the real MS Office) or some kick@ass Android tablet. What are they thinking? Insanely priced hybrids will hardly get them a foot into the door in the tablet market.

its incorrect to assume the RT is marketed as a netbook. There is the chromebook for that, limited as it is (still quite zippy)

The RT is positioned against the iPad: a premium tablet with Microsoft's own exclusive Office, which is in my own experience the #1 requested piece of software asked about by tablet consumers. Netbooks don't offer the same performance, they inherently can't in ULV. ULV is the property of ARM for all intents. You pay a huge price in energy efficiency when you need to run x64 & x86 software. And I am typing this post on an x64 tablet, I have yet to truly require a piece of x86 software (I installed sketchbook pro to try out the pressure sensitivity on my pen. That's it.)

RT was never designed to be purely for productivity, else why not just make netbooks, eh? Fact is most consumers use tablets for 'play': content consumption. Netflix and Facebook, web browsing. So, introduce that touch screen into the mix and there you have your hybrid work/play platform.

Whatever about the surface, the RT platform in say the Asus TF600 costs $650 with the keyboard. This is highly competitive against the iPad, which costs $599 for the same 32gb minus any accessories or KB or third party office apps which are really hit or miss and carry their own learning curve. Plus the consumer needs to find ways to integrate multiple ecosystems (Google apple and or windows) instead of the case where if you run RT and a PC the integration is done for you much in the same way mac and iPad or android and chromebook go together.. But whatever, haters gonna hate.

Torqay

Overheal wrote: »

its incorrect to assume the RT is marketed as a netbook.

It may not be marketed as such, but with the docked keyboard, the Vivo Tab RT is a "netbook" and it weighs as much.

Overheal wrote: »

The RT is positioned against the iPad: a premium tablet with Microsoft's own exclusive Office, which is in my own experience the #1 requested piece of software asked about by tablet consumers.

And you really believe Apple customers will consider the Surface RT a viable alternative at this price? I have yet to see reviews that rate the Surface RT equal to or better than the iPad and your average Apple customer is not known to be a great fan of Microsoft Windows.

Business customers will not jump for the Surface RT either, The "free" MS Office is useless for them as the Home & Student license does not allow for commercial usage, they'll need to pay extra, which makes an x86 tablet even more attractive.

Overheal wrote: »

Fact is most consumers use tablets for 'play': content consumption.

As I have asked before, who is going to buy all the beautiful apps and content in the Windows Store if the "shopping cart" is unaffordable?

Overheal wrote: »

Whatever about the surface, the RT platform in say the Asus TF600 costs $650 with the keyboard. This is highly competitive against the iPad

We still pay in Euro here, and ASUS' Vivo Tab RT costs 829 yoyos ($1,065) with all the bells and whistles. Not what I call competitive.

Overheal wrote: »

Plus the consumer needs to find ways to integrate multiple ecosystems (Google apple and or windows)

Unfortunately for Microsoft and partners, millions of tablet customers have done that already. Tablets aren't sold since yesterday.

Besides, personal computers are not a closed ecosystem although Microsoft may want to change that (not even Linux is exempt, Canonical recently got into bed with Amazon).

But be that as it may, if you want to attract customers to your ecosystem in a market you enter 3 years too late you'll have to be much more aggressive. There was plenty talk about the Surface RT in recent months but the moment the prices became known, little was left of the hype.

Overheal wrote: »

But whatever, haters gonna hate.

Come again?

I'd like to see Microsoft succeed with tablets because I like the idea of a Windows tablet but I believe they've got it all wrong and I'm afraid this will end costlier for them than the Zune disaster (you remember that premium media player which was so competitive against the iPod). If Google and Amazon selling their tablets subsidised or without making profit, they certainly don't do it because they're such nice people, that's how you get customers into your ecosystem, competitively and aggressively. They're aiming at Apple and now Microsoft joins the fray and finds itself between a rock and a hard place. If someone's looking for a "premium" tablet and doesn't want to buy from Apple, the Acer Iconia A700 with full HD resolution or SONY's Xperia S are pretty hot deals at the moment and €100 cheaper than the entry-level Surface RT.

Overheal

Torqay wrote: »

It may not be marketed as such, but with the docked keyboard, the Vivo Tab RT is a "netbook" and it weighs as much.

So is the TF100, TF200, TF300, TF700, etc. series of ASUS Transformer Tablets.

They sell quite well. Nobody seems to mind they are "overpriced netbooks", as you say.

And you really believe Apple customers will consider the Surface RT a viable alternative at this price? I have yet to see reviews that rate the Surface RT equal to or better than the iPad and your average Apple customer is not known to be a great fan of Microsoft Windows.

You're assuming there is only one type of Apple consumer. Most that I encounter are first time buyers who are interested in joining "the cult" because of good marketing and word of mouth; in reality most of these customers are simply looking for the best solution for their needs, which sometimes is a Droid, Kindle, or now an RT.

Business customers will not jump for the Surface RT either, The "free" MS Office is useless for them as the Home & Student license does not allow for commercial usage, they'll need to pay extra, which makes an x86 tablet even more attractive.

I think Fysh already refuted this point with you in another thread. As for the licensing, it costs the same on RT as it does on x64/x86. In fact I don't know if I mentioned it already but all "apps" and presumably Office, are licensed as "1 user, 5 devices", meaning 1 user's Live account, installed on up to 5 simultaneous devices of whichever platform.

As I have asked before, who is going to buy all the beautiful apps and content in the Windows Store if the "shopping cart" is unaffordable?

And as I have said before, 88% of those apps are Free. Most customers who buy a mobile computing device (iPod, Smartphone, Tablet) stick to free apps.

We still pay in Euro here, and ASUS' Vivo Tab RT costs 829 yoyos ($1,065) with all the bells and whistles. Not what I call competitive.

That's a problem of time and market penetration. iPad was surely no different when it launched.

Unfortunately for Microsoft and partners, millions of tablet customers have done that already. Tablets aren't sold since yesterday.

Besides, personal computers are not a closed ecosystem although Microsoft may want to change that (not even Linux is exempt, Canonical recently got into bed with Amazon).

I will recall the story of the customer we had that caused a scene when he upgraded his Android phone. We wiped his old phone. He went and tried to turn on his new phone and... never once bothered to remember what his google account password was. Because he had never logged into google on a PC it never established any 2-step verification or recovery methods for him. His security question for his password reset, he used a custom security question for. His question, to get his password back? "U know it"

The problem that Android has (and Apple to a lesser extent) is that customers set their accounts once and forget them. Your account name for Windows is your email, and you use the same password to log into it every day.

You also need to install 3rd party software to get your PC to sync at all with your devices. I only managed to sync iOS and Google calendars together by installing Outlook and iCloud on my PC. And it was spotty. There is also this annoying problem among android devices that no two devices seem alike in their menu settings, and there is no "standard" set of apps for syncing the really obvious things, like your calendar. Samsung comes closest, with it's series of S-apps.

But be that as it may, if you want to attract customers to your ecosystem in a market you enter 3 years too late you'll have to be much more aggressive. There was plenty talk about the Surface RT in recent months but the moment the prices became known, little was left of the hype.

They are aggressively marketing at least in the United States, and have $1 billion in the war chest to invest in app developers. And as mentioned, licenses are next to free for Windows 8 right now. I actually expect to be getting 2 free licenses here within the next few weeks, both through a work accommodation. Microsoft gave 2,000 developers at BUILD a free surface tablet and windows phone. They are giving every best buy store in the US (theres close to 1000 of these) a Lenovo Yoga 13, which is being gifted to 1 advisor per store (of which I am my store's advisor). So theres another couple million dollars right there. edit: AND, they just got endorsed by Oprah. They are being aggressive, yes.

Microsoft has made some monumental **** ups in the past. They learned hard lessons from Intel-Vista and Zune however. It remains to be seen if they'll learn another hard lesson about RT and particularly Surface, but I remain optimistic. Right now they're a newcomer to the tablet market that was sorely needed and asked for. The biggest pain for them right now is the Kindle Fire 2012 lineup and the refreshed iPad and iPad mini.

The iPad refresh of course reminds me of the Malibu Stacy episode of the Simpsons: Lisa tries to introduce her own doll thats supposed to be this new amazing role model for little girls, and then on the day that she was launching her doll, Malibu Stacy unveils a new version of the toy with a new hat. All the girls get suckered in. Calculated move on Apple's part to ensure RT encounters as many roadblocks as possible, without being downright corporate sabotage. However since Jobs died the company has been on shaky footing ever since; critics refer to the Mini as a kneejerk reaction to the Kindle Fire, iOS 6 was a mess that resulted in headchopping at HQ and their air of "secrecy" has completely vanished. For every product launch since the iPhone 4S, the internet has known every detail about the products months in advance.

Torqay

Overheal wrote: »

I think Fysh already refuted this point with you in another thread.

We have discussed the suitability of Office RT for corporate buyers alright, my point here being Office RT, as it is offered ("free" Office for all of ye!) must not be used in a commercial environment. They will have to obtain a different version and it ain't gonna be some "free app". This will add to the already steep price, bringing it closer a core i3/i5 tablet on which they can use their "real" Office incl. Outlook and Infopath (which most companies get through volume licensing). They're not buying tablets for content consuming but for functionality and integration into their own ecosystem.

Overheal wrote: »

That's a problem of time and market penetration. iPad was surely no different when it launched.

Au contraire, the market penetration was very different. Apple had to convince buyers that they need a tablet (or a blown-out-of-proportion iPhone as it was mocked), not that their tablet with iOS is better than others with Android and Windows RT. Apple did not invent the Tablet PC but they pretty much kickstarted the market.

Overheal wrote: »

I will recall the story of the customer we had that caused a scene when he upgraded his Android phone. We wiped his old phone. He went and tried to turn on his new phone and... never once bothered to remember what his google account password was. Because he had never logged into google on a PC it never established any 2-step verification or recovery methods for him. His security question for his password reset, he used a custom security question for. His question, to get his password back? "U know it"

I do recall a few cases of people forgetting their Hotmail account password.

Overheal wrote: »

You also need to install 3rd party software to get your PC to sync at all with your devices. I only managed to sync iOS and Google calendars together by installing Outlook and iCloud on my PC.

What's it with all this office stuff like calendar and contact synchronization? Didn't you say people buy tablets to consume content? What's it gonna be now?

Overheal wrote: »

AND, they just got endorsed by Oprah.

Holeee Sheeet!

But then I hear, Oprah is pretty much sidelined these days and her ratings are rather low... go figure.

Overheal wrote: »

Microsoft has made some monumental **** ups in the past. They learned hard lessons from Intel-Vista and Zune however. It remains to be seen if they'll learn another hard lesson about RT and particularly Surface, but I remain optimistic

The Zune was a first class product indeed and they it all, the music, the platform and yet it never made it out of the US.

I don't share your optimism. No aggressive marketing in Europe, neither for the tablet nor the phones. Oprah Winfrey sells feck all here, you know.

Overheal wrote: »

Right now they're a newcomer to the tablet market that was sorely needed and asked for. The biggest pain for them right now is the Kindle Fire 2012 lineup and the refreshed iPad and iPad mini.

Don't forget Google's Nexus lineup, the flagship being a new 10 incher with a 2560x1600 display for $399.

Amazon will soon be selling smartphones and they won't be running Windows 8. That's more bad news for Microsoft.

Google's and Amazon's sub-200-dollar 7 inch tablets are formidable "content consuming" gadgets, if Microsoft doesn't serve this market segment soon, they'll loose out big time with their new ecosystem. I don't know about the US of A, but I can assure you, over here, people think twice now before they spend 500 yoyos on a tablet and if they do, it will be most likely an iPad... even if that means they'll have to put up with iTunes on their computer.

Overheal wrote: »

However since Jobs died the company has been on shaky footing ever since; critics refer to the Mini as a kneejerk reaction to the Kindle Fire

True that, the iPad Mini is just so not Apple's style, they're nervous and that's never a good sign. It is an indicator that someone at Apple recognizes 200 Dollar tablets as a threat but in Jobs' days, decisions were not made by nervous marketing experts.

Overheal wrote: »

iOS 6 was a mess that resulted in headchopping at HQ

That got a few good laughs indeed but I doubt it will put a serious dent into Apple's sales figures. And it is not that Microsoft products have always been free of glitches.

You mentioned Ballmer posting a figure of 4 million sold copies of Windows 8. If Surface RT was really flying off the shelves, he would be out there telling us, don't you worry.

I'm not saying Windows RT is bad product, but Surface RT I can't see being a success, not at this price. They may have billions of Dollar in their war chest but they should use it to massively subsidize the tablet. "If Google and Amazon can sell you a 200 Dollar tablet, so can we", would have been a winning strategy. "If Apple can sell you a 500 Dollar tablet, so can we", is not.

Torqay

Since you're a sales rep, you may find this ZDNET article interesting:

Three days in the life of a once and former Microsoft Surface RT user

After waiting on hold for a few minutes, he is connected with a salesperson. Kevin asks, "What's the difference between Windows 8 and Windows RT, or are they the same thing?" The rep replies, "They're pretty much the same thing. There's no real huge difference except the RT is more touch friendly."

Salesperson: The Microsoft Surface RT has Windows 8 on it.

Kevin: Well, are there any other limitations I should be concerned about?

Salesperson: Also it can not do an installation of x86/64 and desktop software.

Kevin asks what it means.

Salesperson: It's nothing you'd care about, that's more for people who are building their own software.

He speaks to a rep, who tells him, "I honestly can't say there's much a difference at all when it comes to a regular computer user. For an average user the differences between the pro and RT are slim."

Such statements from 3 different sales reps??? They're either unbelievably stupid or trained to lie to customers to dampen compatibility concerns.

Other issues raised in the article concern the suitability of Windows RT for business users.

Elsewhere I read about other problems arising, most notably Windows RT lacking VPN capability and troubles tethering the Surface RT with iPhones (crucial for many since Surface RT has no mobile broadband).

Capt'n Midnight

TBH I take what sales reps say with a pinch of salt regardless of industry.

The answers are nearly as varied as asking several about licensing upgrade queries when there is more than one step involved.


If I had my way I wouldn't let bonuses be paid to any sales rep / financial sector employee until at least a year later or possibly until the company's liability had ended - but that's a different rant about rewarding carpetbaggers more than the support people who have to pick up the pieces

Torqay

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

TBH I take what sales reps say with a pinch of salt regardless of industry.

The answers are nearly as varied as asking several about licensing upgrade queries when there is more than one step involved.

Yeah, poor Kevin has been screwed properly, had he ordered this baby instead of the 64GB Surface RT + Typecover, it would have saved him $10 and a lot of hassle.

A Windows 8 tablet with 11.6" IPS display (1,920 x 1,080) Core i3 CPU, 4GB of RAM, 64GB SSD, cradle and keyboard for less than the Microsoft's Surface RT? That does not bode well for Ballmer (who wants to sell 3 million Surface RT by the end of year) and it's only the beginning, I expect x86 tablets coming down in price a lot by Christmas.

Overheal

Torqay wrote: »

Since you're a sales rep, you may find this ZDNET article interesting:

Three days in the life of a once and former Microsoft Surface RT user

Such statements from 3 different sales reps??? They're either unbelievably stupid or trained to lie to customers to dampen compatibility concerns.

Other issues raised in the article concern the suitability of Windows RT for business users.

Elsewhere I read about other problems arising, most notably Windows RT lacking VPN capability and troubles tethering the Surface RT with iPhones (crucial for many since Surface RT has no mobile broadband).

Comments from Microsoft Store employees, not Best Buy employees. In most cases Microsoft Stores are "popups" - seasonally open stores that are not intended as permanent fixtures, and neither are the employees.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

TBH I take what sales reps say with a pinch of salt regardless of industry.

The answers are nearly as varied as asking several about licensing upgrade queries when there is more than one step involved.


If I had my way I wouldn't let bonuses be paid to any sales rep / financial sector employee until at least a year later or possibly until the company's liability had ended - but that's a different rant about rewarding carpetbaggers more than the support people who have to pick up the pieces

I don't work on commission. My sales are however individually tracked and I get to see exactly how much product I am selling that gets returned or exchanged.

bonerjams03

Sorry for the bump, but I just find information so hard to get on buying this. Is there anywhere in Ireland with this physically in stock to try out and buy in store?

testicle

No, it hasn't been released here yet.

G-Money

I'd like a Surface but it's frustrating that a: you can't buy it yet in Ireland and b: the Surface RT is the only model released so far and has too many limitations. I kinda wish MS had done an Apple and announced the Surface a week or two ahead of being able to buy it, rather than several months.

I'd skip the Surface RT but Surface with Windows 8 Pro may be more suitable, but there's no word yet on when it's going to be released (even in those markets that have the Surface RT for sale now) and if I have the money saved, I can't see myself waiting and I'd probably end up going for an iPad instead.

G-Money

Surface with Windows 8 Pro pricing revealed. All US prices I believe so far.

http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_blog/archive/2012/11/29/next-up-for-the-surface-family-surface-with-windows-8-pro-pricing.aspx

Torqay

Overheal wrote: »

It remains to be seen if they'll learn another hard lesson about RT and particularly Surface, but I remain optimistic.

Surface sales seem to be in vain (as I have predicted). Instead of the projected 3 million tablets, Microsoft only sold 1 million (probably less) in the last quarter of 2012.

Wrong pricing, poor marketing and very limited availability in B&M stores, it doesn't seem to me that they have learned anything.

Google in the meantime is selling its Nexus by the truckload (more than one million per month) and having trouble to satisfy the demand.

Overheal

Nexus is an Android tablet, priced agressively. Not exactly groundbreaking. Chromebooks meanwhile were popular over christmas also because of their low cost. Google is selling 3 times as many units at 1/3rd the price; not exactly shocking.

Surface definitely flopped though between now and the time I posted that, when they still weren't present in anything but pop-up Microsoft stores and online. It wasn't for lack of interest but lack of presence. November was nothing but people asking "Where is the Surface?" with nothing to show. Microsoft didn't partner with anyone in the US to distribute the Surface, or display it. Mid-December they realize "Oh ****" and rush the units to Best Buy stores, where they are rushed to shelves faster than we can find any space for them, but the damage had already been done. By mid December the market was abuzz with lowball purchases: you ran out of stock of items exactly in the order of low price to higher price. If the tablet was more than $400, nobody wanted it. If it was a laptop worth more than $500, nobody wanted it. And everything less was snatched up like the world was ending. Microsoft ultimately lost out a lot more than they needed to because they didn't do a nationwide rollout of surface with Windows 8.

Torqay

Overheal wrote: »

Nexus is an Android tablet, priced agressively. Not exactly groundbreaking. Chromebooks meanwhile were popular over christmas also because of their low cost. Google is selling 3 times as many units at 1/3rd the price; not exactly shocking.

Surface RT isn't exactly groundbreaking either, unless you're awed by a tablet that it comes with Microsoft Office (which really isn't the only productivity show in tablet-town).

Microsoft could have priced their tablet aggressively and still making money from subscriptions and apps/content sales. And yet they have chosen to compete directly with Apple in a market segment where they hardly stand a chance. While Samsung, Sony, Acer et al selling their high-end 10" tablets for less than $400 dollar, Microsoft is asking for $500-900... plain stupid! You want to take on the market leader, you have got to be cheaper and significantly so. And if you are a newcomer, all that counts is to get your product out there in big numbers and make people want it. Get your foot in the door, make yourself a name and take it from there.

Overheal wrote: »

Google is selling 3 times as many units at 1/3rd the price; not exactly shocking.

It's shocking news for Microsoft because anyone who got a Nexus or Fire HD in recent weeks is not likely to buy a Surface in the foreseeable future. Millions of potential customers whom they have failed to attract.

Overheal wrote: »

Chromebooks meanwhile were popular over christmas also because of their low cost.

I wouldn't exactly call the Chromebook "popular", it hardly made an impact on the netbook market. Limited offline capability is still a dealbreaker for many. Chromebook is dead in the water (again), as is Surface RT... for reasons other than being poor products, pity.

Overheal

That's cute, you assume the average consumer even knew the chromebook wasn't running Windows before the bought it. Most of them see a price, can I do email, yes, want it. The chromebook was a pricegrab. Post Xmas, the demand for the stupid bastards has fallen off a cliff. Xmas was all about pricing, not function (yes, Rt, function, etc etc)

Torqay

More bad news... it looks like Windows RT is dead and buried.

sales in the range of between roughly 680,000 and 750,000

The return rate on the device was "very high"

little evidence of continued production of the Microsoft RT device in the first quarter because Microsoft is still trying to sell off inventory.

a "distinct lack of interest" from device makers in pursuing RT devices

Elsewhere in the news, Windows 8 may not be selling all that well either, despite Microsoft flogging off their new OS for next to nothing.

"I heard absolutely nothing on how Windows 8 is doing," said Patrick Moorhead, principal analyst at Moor Insights & Strategy. "I have to believe it's because it's not an impressive number. If it was, there would be horns being blown at the top of the buildings in Redmond."

Capt'n Midnight

Torqay wrote: »

More bad news... it looks like Windows RT is dead and buried.

I'd consider that good news

Any remember how Windows CE diluted the windows brand ?

it looked like windows, but it didn't run many windows apps,
at least three different versions of each app needed depending on which processor you had.

Windows NT on Alpha and MIPS had the same problems, unless the vendor re-wrote the app for you hardware you were stuffed, and if they did they could charge a premium.


Down with stuff that doesn't meet the resonable expectations of the customer. Most windows apps will run on most versions of windows.

Since Firefox and Ubuntu have also been released recently for phones the tablet / phablet market has a lot more options if you want an OS.


Aren't those numbers are less than the tablet HP pulled from the market ? And IIRC that HP tablet could be got to run android / other third software as well as it's own.

Torqay

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Down with stuff that doesn't meet the resonable expectations of the customer.

Which brings us to Surface Pro. Microsoft has already warned potential customers to expect only half the battery life of the Surface Amateur (which boasts 8-9 hrs). How a 1,000 Dollar-tablet with such poor mobility is going to sell remains to be seen. 4 hours is anything but reasonable for a tablet. Maybe they'll do a Blackberry...

Overheal

Torqay wrote: »

Which brings us to Surface Pro. Microsoft has already warned potential customers to expect only half the battery life of the Surface Amateur (which boasts 8-9 hrs). How a 1,000 Dollar-tablet with such poor mobility is going to sell remains to be seen. 4 hours is anything but reasonable for a tablet. Maybe they'll do a Blackberry...

Like I've said, its perfectly reasonable. My tablet has the same specs, for what it is and what it can do I can't complain. The only way you can stuff more power and battery life into it is make it thicker and graver; the current size and weight is the limit of what you would comfortably want to use as a portable tablet device. For an ultrabook its different, there's simply more space in the form factor. My yoga 13 is also a tablet, essentially, but it is not a comfortable device to use as such, it is a bit too big and a bit too heavy. Until battery tech improves again, 4.5 hours isn't unreasonable.

If I want more life, I can always go into power options and simply 'underclock' the cpu to a low percentage and dim brightness. In fact, anybody know of a good battery bench tool to test that out? In practice the tab gets 4 hours, less when writing, but I'm sure I can get a couple more hours by limiting performance. Which is all that's happening anyway when you stuff an Atom into some of these things. At least with an i5 consumers will have the option to raise or lower their performance between decent battery and decent performance.

Torqay

Overheal wrote: »

If I want more life, I can always go into power options and simply 'underclock' the cpu to a low percentage

And how exactly do you "underclock" a Core ULV processor?

Overheal wrote: »

In fact, anybody know of a good battery bench tool to test that out?

Yeah, it's called a stopwatch...

Its main competitor, the Iconia W700 lasts almost twice as long on the battery and saves you 250 dollar (if you add the keyboard to the Surface). For $780 you'll get a tablet with the same Core i5, a BT keyboard and 8 hrs battery life, compared to that, Surface Pro is very unreasonable. And with the new line of 7W Core processors available to OEMs now, the first generation Surface Pro is probably be a very poor investment.

Capt'n Midnight

I'm sure they'd like the Apple way where you own the platform and get a slice of the app store action.

Even after all it's recent spending M$ still has something stupid like $67Bn in loose change. And yes they pumped money into XBox for along time before it became profitable. There is even serious talk of them buying DELL

But I still think RT is wishful thinking as it offers too little too late.

By comparison the HP 1100 is 10 years old - pop in an SSD and a new battery and you'll get 4 hours. (still not sure if anyone's put a capacitive screen in one) People have stuck windows 8 on it as well.

Torqay

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I'm sure they'd like the Apple way where you own the platform and get a slice of the app store action.

That is the whole point of turning an operating system into a retail platform, but unlike Apple, who sold a few hundred million tablets and smartphones, Microsoft has sold a meager 700,000 Windows RT devices, so app store revenue is close to zilch. To make matters worse, the "partners" have jumped ship because there's nothing in it for them, they don't benefit from Windows Store sales and yet they have to cough up $85 for the Windows/Office RT OEM license.

And now Google is selling the Nexus 10, currently the fastest tablet with arguably the best display, from $400... who in their right mind would want to spend $500 on a Surface RT? As our resident Radioshack sales rep would tell us, in the end it's all about the price and it just is not right.

Capt'n Midnight

Torqay wrote: »

That is the whole point of turning an operating system into a retail platform, but unlike Apple, who sold a few hundred million tablets and smartphones, Microsoft has sold a meager 700,000 Windows RT devices, so app store revenue is close zilch. To make matters worse, the "partners" have jumped ship because there's nothing in it for them, they don't benefit from Windows Store sales and yet they have to cough up $85 for the Windows/Office RT OEM license.

That's still way behind the volumes of the cancelled HP touchpad
which ran webOS, Android and Linux (ARM)

Certainly if microsoft can get a table that integrates with all the corporate stuff they might have a justification for charging a premium price.

Overheal

Torqay wrote: »

And how exactly do you "underclock" a Core ULV processor?

By telling the OS to not draw more than x% of the CPU clock. You've played with the Advanced Power Options?

Yeah, it's called a stopwatch...

That is cute, but since that is entirely subjective benchmarking, I was looking for an objective benchmarking utility that runs any hardware under the same basic conditions.

Its main competitor, the Iconia W700 lasts almost twice as long on the battery and saves you 250 dollar (if you add the keyboard to the Surface). For $780 you'll get a tablet with the same Core i5, a BT keyboard and 8 hrs battery life, compared to that, Surface Pro is very unreasonable. And with the new line of 7W Core processors available to OEMs now, the first generation Surface Pro is probably be a very poor investment.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/14/acer-iconia-w700-review/

Worse, though: think of all the pieces you'll need to carry with you if you decide to take the W700 on the road. We've already mentioned three: the tablet, cradle and kickstand. But if you're going to be using this with the cradle, you'll probably also want the Bluetooth keyboard, which comes in the box. That's four. If you're using this in desktop mode, you'll also want some sort of wireless mouse or trackpad (not included in the box, sadly). That's five pieces. The AC adapter is six. Then there's the bundled faux-leather case, which fits the tablet only. Take that and you're up to seven. It's a lot to remember, and some of the pieces (the cradle, kickstand) don't lie flat, so they'll take up more space in your bag than a device with a regular ol' keyboard dock. And really, there wouldn't have been much of a downside if Acer went with that form factor instead: you'd get the cradle and keyboard in one piece, along with a built-in battery and a smattering of ports. The only thing you wouldn't be able to do is dock the tablet in portrait mode, which is fine by us.

Considering the Keyboard is the Cover and the Kickstand is built in, the Surface is far more portable. I don't know about you but I wouldnt want to carry that dock and keyboard around. In contrast the Surface does make it stupid-easy to carry a keyboard and stylus with you, both attach to the device pretty seamlessly.

I don't know where you're pulling the $780 price tag from. I see $999. That model has roughly the same core specs as the Surface Pro. The Pro meanwhile also supports pen-writing, which is a pretty big deal. I also don't see where the W700 lists an accelerometer or compass, though it presumably has a gyroscope as a given. But sure, throw a typecover in, and the 128GB surface is more than the W700, but it's also a bit more utilitarian. Couldn't honestly tell you what's really up though. W700 battery is 54Wh, the Pro is 42Wh. Real empirical benchmarking when both units are in the hands of reviewers will settle the truth.

Torqay

My bad, I was looking at the i3 variant (IMHO still plenty power to run your "corporate stuff" and lasts even longer than it's big brother on the battery)

When you're running out of juice after 4 hours, you don't care much for "real empirical benchmarking", all you want is a power outlet or a better battery.

Run y-cruncher (a CPU stress test) with different power plans and see how it goes. You probably won't have to wait 4 hours.

Torqay

Interesting analysis here.

The PC industry used to taunt Apple about their price premium but now the joke is on them.

It's crucial that the PC industry hits the strategic $399, $499, $599, and $699 starting price points. $399 starting price for an Atom based system with a standard 1366x768 display would be price competitive. At $699 starting price for a Haswell-based system and a retina class display, the unit would be competitive.

Some people will say I'm expecting too much for $699 but the Nexus 10 offers 2560x1600 resolution at the $399 price point. This is what consumers have come to expect and this is the new marketplace reality.

Bottom line, people willing to cough up $1,000+ for a first generation Windows 8 tablet now better have their head examined. With the new 7w SDP Ivy Bridge processors already being available to manufacturers and faster Atom and Haswell chips coming soon, I expect things to move fast and not in a direction where I can see Microsoft selling Surface Pro in big numbers. Launching a device when the shelf-life of the current CPU generation is coming to an end and the new stuff will be all the rage soon is quite unfortunate... Good luck with selling off the inventory and get Surface Pro 2 ready in the Summer.

Overheal

Hard Drive Analysis:

http://gizmodo.com/5982668/which-one-has-more-usable-space-the-128gb-surface-pro-or-the-128gb-macbook-air

Everyone's been making fun of the Surface Pro for being so stingy on hard drive space. The 128GB version of the Surface Pro only has 90GB of free space (originally reported to be 83GB but since boosted). Where the hell did the other 38 gigs go? Well, you could ask the same question to the 128GB version of the MacBook Air. The MBA only has 92GB of free space. What!

And get this. With a few tweaks (namely removing the recovery image), the Surface Pro 128GB actually has more usable space than the equivalent 128GB MacBook Air. Why's everyone making fun of Microsoft for hijacking space? HMM?

Ed Bott of ZDNet, and unapologetic Microsoft man, dug deep to determine the true difference in space between the Surface Pro and the MacBook Air. It's worth a read if you're into splitting bits from bytes and breaking down binary and base-10. Basically, Apple and Windows report disk size differently leading Microsoft too look worse than it actually is. [ZDNet]

Torqay

This your latest sales pitch? "Folks, why buy a Macbook Air when you get more disk space on a Surface Pro"... if you do away with the recovery partition, which according to Microsoft, you don't need anyway: Ideally, you will never need your recovery image.

Reasons for Surface Pro not going to fly off the shelves are plenty but low disk space is hardly one of them. Personally I think the issue of disk space available to the user is blown out of proportion (I have a little netbook with a 4 GB SSD, more than plenty, since it's got a SD expansion slot), although there's nothing wrong with a little bit of truth in advertising. Price ($1,130 and no "free" Office), timing (soon Ivy Bridge is old news) and the ridiculously short battery life will seal its fate.

Overheal

From the sound of it, the accessory spine supports external batteries/beefier keyboard docks.

Seal it's fate nothing. I was around when the first wave of tablets hit. You could argue that all of them were "duds" because none of them sold at launch. They all only said once their prices dropped. The product cycle was essentially that new shiny things sit on our shelves, get poked at by customers for a few months who seem to think its all not worth the price, then the next gen thing comes out, so they drop the price of the old one by a few points and they are all snatched up like someone announced they saw blood fall out of the sky. 2 years later, I still get people coming in trying to see if I still carry things like the XOOM, but **** me if anyone wanted to buy one when it was head to head with the iPad 2. HP Touchpad, exact same story. HP was just a ****ing idiot about it, they panicked and canceled the whole thing. Cue a huge fire sale, and now there are thousands of their pads on the 2nd hand market and they've become a tinkerer's wonderground for modding with android OS. Even if the surface doesnt sell like wildfire and the price drops, the unit is still a great piece of kit, and it and its descendents will be around for a while. There surely will be a Surface Pro 2.

Torqay

Didn't it's a bad peace of kit, did I? However, Surface Pro is clearly aimed at business people (a rather limited market by definition) and if they can't get nearly a days work out it then it is a fail. Who'd care if it was a millimeter thicker and a few ounces heavier, if the only battery lasted 8 hours. Because this and more is what you get out of a Nexus 10, an iPad or even its direct competitors, the Acer Iconia W700 and the Samsung Smart PC Pro. As the man said, "This is what consumers have come to expect and this is the new marketplace reality." And when you throw the new Atom tablets (which can also run "all your corporate stuff" and boast 13 hrs+ on the battery) into the mix then it's getting even more worrisome.

Overheal

The iPad and Nexus don't offer you x86 or x64 capabilities, and the W700 lacks a pen. The Samsung Ativ is an Atom, and thats great for lots of folks that don't care about getting anything done particularly fast. The only other comparable device, the Samsung Slate, has the same battery life. To add the battery life with the same performance you would require adding an extra half inch or more of thickness and at least an extra pound of weight, by which point the unit is not something you'd want to hold in your hands, certainly not for the length of time that the battery would then last. There, you have a triple-point between performance, ergonomics, and battery life.

Torqay

Overheal wrote: »

The Samsung Ativ is an Atom

No, the Samsung Ativ is a Core i5 tablet. Oh, and it comes with a stylus (S-Pen). Oh, and it lasts 8 hours on the battery. Oh, and it is thinner and lighter than the Surface Pro. There, you have a Windows 8 tablet with a pen, offering the same performance, better ergonomics and longer battery life.

Overheal

It depends on which Ative you mean. The 700T -Ah Samsung, you sexy bastards. They have been gaining providence quickly in the last year. It's an extra $200 though. Well, 80, Type cover. Hot damn. Microsoft is just getting cut out by the bigger mfrs with economy of scale on their side.

In general though Torq how feel you about these new Pro tablet PCs? I think these are the laptop killer. The 500T, while Atom, still has the pen and its only $600.

Overheal

Microsoft's online store is sold out of 128GB Pro's within hours of launch

http://surface.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/Content/pbPage.Surface_Pro?ESICaching=off

Torqay

WOW!!!

Oh wait, that doesn't say how many tablets they have sold... didn't they pull the same stunt with Surface RT back then, when it was sold out on pre-order within the hour? Of course, we now know that they have sold only 15% of their initial batch of 5 million units.

I say, hold your horses and wait for hard sales figures.

Torqay

Overheal wrote: »

Microsoft's online store is sold out of 128GB Pro's within hours of launch

http://surface.microsoftstore.com/store/msstore/Content/pbPage.Surface_Pro?ESICaching=off

Just as a reminder:



And the rest is history...

Overheal

yep. We never got stock of them, other than the display models. *slow clap*

Torqay

You're not the only one, apparently stock was very limited at all major outlets... seems fishy and lackluster, if you're asking me. The likes of Ed Bott and Paul Thurrott are out there, telling us, "the market has spoken" I think it's a little bit too early, to declare victory.

But maybe Stan Shih had it right, when he claimed, Microsoft’s goal with the Surface isn’t to find success as a hardware vendor.

There will always be a market for Intel tablets, whether Microsoft is making them or anyone else, but they won't be selling to the masses. Microsoft should have have thrown all they had behind Windows RT, the real new thing. If they were serious about the tablet market, they should make an affordable tablet, get the product out in big numbers and tie consumers into their app/content ecosystem, for "free" if necessary but who in their right mind is biting for a 600 dollar tablet that hasn't much to offer aside from "free Office". If i'd be in the market for a 10" tablet and I see the Nexus 10 offering the most beautiful display and stellar battery life for $399 then give me one good reason why I should buy a Surface RT for $499 (which requires a $100 keyboard if I want to make good use of the "free" office suite). Just because it's a Microsoft product or because Windows Store* beats the hell out of Play Store? I think not. For a tablet that doesn't offer "x86 or x64 capabilities", the Surface RT insanely overpriced but if it was selling for $299, I might actually consider it.

* Of course, they now have a gazillion customers registered with Windows Store, but these are mostly PC users who only signed on because it's mandatory in order to get full functionality out of Windows 8 and grab a few freebies but the vast majority of them will hardly ever generate revenue. I think Microsoft is in a right mess of their own making right now.

Torqay

Just looked up the first "hands on" reviews. People getting about 3 hrs of juice out of the battery, but they expect a somewhat better battery performance under "less-trying" conditions. Well, let's hope so...

Overheal

well im three hours into my slate battery on 25% cpu cap, haven't noticed any decrease in performance while writing. still have 36% of my battery left.

Overheal

http://gizmodo.com/5983513/7-worst-battery-life+guzzling-gadgets