Islam - The Untold Story.

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

Film showing cancelled after threats are received:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/9535854/Channel-4-cancels-Islam-documentary-screening-after-presenter-threatened.html

Fuck knows why. It's hardly that bruising a piece.

Wibbs

iba wrote: »

Just to clarify, Im not saying Mecca didnt exist, it did exist as a small provincial town/nomadic campsite,

Actually we can't even be certain of that as it shows up on none of the very extensive Greek trade maps and guides to the region.

but Mohamad or whoever wrote the Quran was not from there.

To be fair if a) we can't be sure of the historicity of Mecca b) we can't be sure of the historicity of Muhammed, we can't then make claims where he was or where he wasn't from. There's little evidence either way. At that point the only data we have is that the early Muslims believed/stated that's where he was from, so given the aforementioned paucity of sources it's as likely or not.

I think it exists, Mecca that is, as part of the narrative for two reasons a)to make the point that the Quran/Islam originated in Arabia

Certainly plausible.

b) to try and make the point that Mohamad (as the writer of the Quran) must have received his revelations from above because someone living in this small provincial place would not have the knowledge to be able to write the Quran without intervention from above.

Less plausible. Why? Because the Muslim writers are at pains throughout to hold Mecca as anything but provincial indeed claim it as a major centre of trade and theology.

hadiths/Sunna - obviously I dont know forsure, but I would say that it mus be over 90% made-up at least

Sure, the problem is we're all arguing from a point of lack of evidence and external corroboration, so any percentages are meaningless in the face of that.

Now what god in their right mind would be asking people to fast for these considerable, unhealthy periods of time.

I do get your point, however fasting for 16 hours for a healthy person turns out to be fine and may actually be advantageous. The fasting thing I'd not have much issue with TBH. For me there would be bigger fish to fry as far as some of their traditions/commandments go.

Finally, I woudl dearly love for Archalogists to be able to do their work in Mecca and see what they could find but of course the Saudis will never allow this. In addition, what is inside the Kaba? My guess is a Meterote, which back then would have been something amazing and astounding and could easily of started off a worshipping craze. And totally finally, I would love if reseach could be done on teh Qurans found in the Mosque in Saana, Yemen in or around 1970 which seem to date from around the 7th or 8th century and would surely reveal a lot about the origins of islam and the Quran etc but alas, like teh Saudis, it looks like the Yemeni Government will never allow this again.

Sadly I too think they'll resist further investigations. Odd given claims that the Quran is unchanged and that one of those examples appears to be very early on C14 dating. However it also shows corrections and the text style looks more like early 9th century. Common enough back then to reuse old parchment.

iba wrote: »

I dare say, not one of the protestors in Cairo or Libya have even seen the movie.

Apparently they've seen a youtube trailer with Arabic subtitles. TBH having googled said trailer, I'd be protesting too over the utter shíteness of the "film". It's clearly meant to antagonise.

For example, if a movie was made about Jesus sleeping with Mary Magdalene (as some say she was a prostitute), I woudlnt care less and certainly wouldnt go rioting or issuing fatwas on the writers/directors head.

Yes but you're not a theist. You're not arguing from the same position. The last temptation of Christ by Scorcese had a fair few protests on it's release. Not to this degree, but it was there. Every culture has "sacred cows" including our own(The Holocaust, racial equality and a few others). They just have more and dafter ones to western eyes.

There is a train of thought that Muslim states do not know how to rule themselves/be given freedom and they need dictators to keep control.

While the history and culture, even the faith would suggest this to some degree, that suggestion for me is an uncomfortable step too far into "the wogs can't rule themselves". It's been said of us in the past and any number of nations. Plus it's hardly accurate as Malaysia is doing alright thanks very much.

iba

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually we can't even be certain of that as it shows up on none of the very extensive Greek trade maps and guides to the region. To be fair if a) we can't be sure of the historicity of Mecca b) we can't be sure of the historicity of Muhammed, we can't then make claims where he was or where he wasn't from. There's little evidence either way. At that point the only data we have is that the early Muslims believed/stated that's where he was from, so given the aforementioned paucity of sources it's as likely or not. Certainly plausible. Less plausible. Why? Because the Muslim writers are at pains throughout to hold Mecca as anything but provincial indeed claim it as a major centre of trade and theology.

Sure, the problem is we're all arguing from a point of lack of evidence and external corroboration, so any percentages are meaningless in the face of that.

I do get your point, however fasting for 16 hours for a healthy person turns out to be fine and may actually be advantageous. The fasting thing I'd not have much issue with TBH. For me there would be bigger fish to fry as far as some of their traditions/commandments go.

Sadly I too think they'll resist further investigations. Odd given claims that the Quran is unchanged and that one of those examples appears to be very early on C14 dating. However it also shows corrections and the text style looks more like early 9th century. Common enough back then to reuse old parchment.

Apparently they've seen a youtube trailer with Arabic subtitles. TBH having googled said trailer, I'd be protesting too over the utter shíteness of the "film". It's clearly meant to antagonise.

Yes but you're not a theist. You're not arguing from the same position. The last temptation of Christ by Scorcese had a fair few protests on it's release. Not to this degree, but it was there. Every culture has "sacred cows" including our own(The Holocaust, racial equality and a few others). They just have more and dafter ones to western eyes.

While the history and culture, even the faith would suggest this to some degree, that suggestion for me is an uncomfortable step too far into "the wogs can't rule themselves". It's been said of us in the past and any number of nations. Plus it's hardly accurate as Malaysia is doing alright thanks very much.

Sorry I cant break up paras the way you do - my PC here wont allow it - dont know why.

Just a couple of things.

Mecca - as you say yourself, the Greeks dont have much of a record of it and in addition neither do the Romans who had even extensiver maps of Arabia and its trade routes. My understanding is that before Constatine and the Romans converted to Christainity 350ad approx they purchased rather a lot of incense from the very south of the arabian peninsula to light to their Roman Gods but once they gave up praying to the Roman Gods their need for incense ceased. So at one time there was a big size trade with South Arabia and therefore the Romans would have been well aware of the major trade routes and towns/encampments and it appears that Mecca does not exactly stand out.

Quran - there are references in teh Quran to surronding countryside (sorry I cat quote right now) which is definitly not countryside aound Mecca. Im trying to think of where Lott is supposed to have lived after leaving Sodom, was it somewhere close to teh Dead Sea? And the countryside around where Lott is supposed to have lived, matches in fairly well with the countryside described in teh Quran.

As for the 'wogs cant rule themselves' - the thing is, its educated North African Muslims that have told me that themselves.


BTW IMO the solution to everthing is education and the eradication of poverty and with the eradication of poverty so too will the influence of religion and its grip on the masses reside. For example, in the densly populated areas of Cairo like Imbaba or Shubra (populations of over 4 million people) poverty is rife. And during the Mubarak era it was the Muslim Brotherhood that the people turned to for help and who provided help by way of food, money and school books etc etc So when Mubarak fell, it goes without saying that these people voted for the brotherhood.

Regards

Iba

studiorat

iba wrote: »

Mecca - as you say yourself, the Greeks dont have much of a record of it and in addition neither do the Romans who had even extensiver maps of Arabia and its trade routes. My understanding is that before Constatine and the Romans converted to Christainity 350ad approx they purchased rather a lot of incense from the very south of the arabian peninsula to light to their Roman Gods but once they gave up praying to the Roman Gods their need for incense ceased. So at one time there was a big size trade with South Arabia and therefore the Romans would have been well aware of the major trade routes and towns/encampments and it appears that Mecca does not exactly stand out.

Apart from spices, incense etc. the many Arabs were foederati or Saracen mercenaries, for the Romans. Which means they would have already been living (some of the time anyway) along the fertile croissant.

Some of these were the Quraysh tribe who's leading dynasts despite supposedly coming from Mecca, are said to have purchased estates in Syria during the Prophet's lifetime. If genuine this would have had no precedent in the entire span of Roman history. The argument then being, either they were from Mecca and they didn't own the land or the were from Mecca and the didn't own the land.

Add to this the Prophet's obsession with securing the border zone south of Palestine. Aside from Mecca itself all the targets of his campaigning are said to have lain in the region that the Roman's Arab allies patrolled.

The Quraysh, by allying themselves with the Prophet would have taken a gamble on their lands. But since the Roman gold had long dried up it would have been a risk worth taking. To cut a long story short by the time this confederation was victorious the Quraysh who had previously held estates under Roman authority now took possession of entire provinces.

iba wrote: »

Quran - there are references in teh Quran to surronding countryside (sorry I cat quote right now) which is definitly not countryside aound Mecca. Im trying to think of where Lott is supposed to have lived after leaving Sodom, was it somewhere close to teh Dead Sea? And the countryside around where Lott is supposed to have lived, matches in fairly well with the countryside described in teh Quran.

"You pass them morning and night; will you not understand" Say's the Quran, meaning I suppose, you'd pass the pillars of salt, which if you lived in Mecca, you wouldn't!

recedite

iba wrote: »

In addition, what is inside the Kaba? My guess is a Meterote, which back then would have been something amazing and astounding and could easily of started off a worshipping craze.

The Black Stone

In 1674, according to Johann Ludwig Burckhardt, someone smeared the Black Stone with excrement so that "every one who kissed it retired with a sullied beard". The Shi'ite Persians were suspected of being responsible...

Always wondered how those lads got their name

But joking aside, the stone is one of many, and they pre-date Islam. It seems that back in the day, an unusual or distinctive stone (a stone sent from the heavens would be excellent) was good for marking a meeting place in neutral territory. That way, the tribes could meet up under a truce, resolve their differences, and possibly elect a common leader, or High King. Over time, these Stones of Destiny and their location became imbued with a ritual significance. We had one here called the Lia Fáil at the Hill of Tara, and the Scottish Highland clans had one called The Stone of Scone. To break the morale and unity of the clans, the English carried it all the way to Westminster Abbey and held it there until 1996 when they felt secure enough to return it. Since then, public sentiment in Scotland has shifted towards independence again...
Apparently Mohammed was savvy enough to fully harness the power of his local destiny stone in his quest for power.

Rock of Gibraltar

This documentary is up on vimeo
http://vimeo.com/49439561

Mightn't be there for very long so if you've missed it i'd watch it sooner than later.

Jellicoe

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

This documentary is up on vimeo
http://vimeo.com/49439561

Mightn't be there for very long so if you've missed it i'd watch it sooner than later.

Watched it. Very disappointed. Full of opinion and speculation, but very light on facts and the counterarguments