Islam - The Untold Story.

Deadoneone

Dear people, why are thou wasting your time- Wibb has made 24,355 post in almost 6 years and there is no problem for me in creating 24,355 IDs in a month. I don't hide thing-- I have many faces, many lives and there is no fear inside me. The fear which I see in your hearts.. Such are the decrees of lord.

Deadoneone

Beruthiel wrote: »

Mathew knew his sh!t, it was indeed the figs and grapes!

mathew is son of b!tch. Dear sister Beruthiel

Beruthiel

Deadoneone wrote: »

mathew is son of b!tch. Dear sister Beruthiel

You couldn't handle a sister like me Deadie.

Bannasidhe

Deadoneone wrote: »

Dear people, why are thou wasting your time- Wibb has made 24,355 post in almost 6 years and there is no problem for me in creating 24,355 IDs in a month. I don't hide thing-- I have many faces, many lives and there is no fear inside me. The fear which I see in your hearts.. Such are the decrees of lord.

Many faces, many lives - yet always spouting the same old ****e.

Dades

The latest dead one re-reg is now permabanned.

robindch

Just clobbered another rereg myself! Three bans in one day -- is this a forum record? Whee!

Dades

It's like Whack-a-Mole in here today.

Definitely a forum record despite occasional shouts of "oppression"!

Bannasidhe

Dades wrote: »

It's like Whack-a-Mole in here today.

Definitely a forum record despite occasional shouts of "oppression"!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2pUe8FiHFA

Beruthiel

Dades wrote: »

The latest dead one re-reg is now permabanned.

You need not have wasted your precious time Dades.
I site banned on sight.

And if you happen to be reading this Deadie, all you are doing is helping me with my monthly site ban quota and a very slim chance of catching up with the mighty Gordon.

Sarky

I hear that before Allah smites someone he asks Gordon for permission.

coffee_cake

Beruthiel wrote: »

You need not have wasted your precious time Dades.
I site banned on sight.

And if you happen to be reading this Deadie, all you are doing is helping me with my monthly site ban quota and a very slim chance of catching up with the mighty Gordon.

pfff, i reported him ages ago. slow!

Beruthiel

bluewolf wrote: »

pfff, i reported him ages ago. slow!

I'm a busy gurl.

I miss dead one. Can't we just keep him for a while, please? :pac:

Genghiz Cohen

We'll feed him and water him and take him for walks and everything!

Dades

gvn wrote: »

Can't we just keep him for a while, please? :pac:

I'm pretty sure people said the same thing about dead one 1.0 when he a pup.

That didn't end well.

decimatio

SeanW wrote: »

For clarity, I think Roman Catholicism, Scientology, the Hindu Caste System (Hindu might be alright without it), and Islamic sects like Wahhabism and Salafism, are as close to pure evil as it is possible for any human ideology to be.

Could. Not. Agree. More. Perfectly said.

Beruthiel

Deadie, we can do this until Allah takes you off to your pretendie afterlife.

Penn

deadd lordd wrote:

Dear Dades, Don't humiliate yourself, You, Robin, Penny and some other mods are full with sh!t. You don't deserve for these posts. You are burden on the existence of board. You are fooling other people.

coffee_cake

lol, your name is penny now

Penn

bluewolf wrote: »

lol, your name is penny now

It's Penni with an 'i', like Randi

robindch

Film showing cancelled after threats are received:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/9535854/Channel-4-cancels-Islam-documentary-screening-after-presenter-threatened.html

Beruthiel

robindch wrote: »

Film showing cancelled after threats are received:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/9535854/Channel-4-cancels-Islam-documentary-screening-after-presenter-threatened.html

That pisses me off.

Wiggles88

robindch wrote: »

Film showing cancelled after threats are received:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/9535854/Channel-4-cancels-Islam-documentary-screening-after-presenter-threatened.html

The maker, Tom Holland, gives his 2c here

iba

Hi,

But by way of background I have a degree in Arabic & Middle Eastern Studies from Durham University.

I have not watched this programme but will check it out.

I have however watched the Tom Holland programme the other week which I found interesting.

Furthermore, I have just finished the Tom Holland book In the Shadow of the Sword - which I found to be extremely insightful, interesting and well researched - indeed it was a better study of Islam than any book that I read during Uni.

I think it is very clear that there is no such thing as a god and that many religions have just developed from each other - I know in this instance we are focussing on Zorastrism, Judasim, Christianity & Islam but I think you can even find traces of the Pharoh's traditions and beliefs in the aforementioned faiths and probably Roman and Greek gods too.

I think it is very clear that:

• Mohamad was not from Mecca;
• there is no substatntive proof that Mohamad even existed;
• the Hadiths/sunna are a complete make up;
• the Quran was probably written by one person who was from the lower palestine area (ish) who was in daily contact with Jews & Christains;
• the Muslim tradition of praying 5 times a day came from Zorastrians;
• the Green Flag also came from zorastrians/Persians;
• Abd Malik ibn Marwan came up with the idea of facing Mecca to pray; and
• the whole idea of religion in those days was to use religion as a base for political power i.e. if u had a god on ur side that would help support the legitimacy/and power of ones rulership/throne.

Now hat am I forgetting?

Regards

Iba

Wibbs

Beruthiel wrote: »

That pisses me off.

Ditto, though sadly doesn't surprise. Both Christians and Jews have a long history of scholarship of their respective texts and while arguments kick off they seem to be far less aggressive in nature than similar arguments when scholarship is attached to the Islamic texts. Now I could understand if this was just restricted to the quran as unlike the other faiths the book itself is considered holy, but similar responses get bandied about concerning other Islamic texts.

iba wrote: »

I think it is very clear that there is no such thing as a god and that many religions have just developed from each other - I know in this instance we are focussing on Zorastrism, Judasim, Christianity & Islam but I think you can even find traces of the Pharoh's traditions and beliefs in the aforementioned faiths and probably Roman and Greek gods too.

Some influences certainly, though one must apply more rigour when that can be taken too far. EG the Horus/Jesus connection which has near zero evidence for it. I can't recall the name of that viral youtube thing on this subject, but it was lapped up and there was barely a single claim that held up.

Mohamad was not from Mecca;
there is no substatntive proof that Mohamad even existed;

Maybe, but there is some evidence of a Mohammed figure arising among the Arabs. Mecca has no outside sources, so I'd not believe the back story of it's importance, however I'd be open to it's existence as an important part of the narrative. Why? Because of it's very lack of outside evidence. If they wanted to grandstand or invent a place they would have picked a better example.

the Hadiths/sunna are a complete make up;

Most likely, or a cobbling together of myth and oral history. While oral history is most certainly open to Chinese whispers, I'd not discount it entirely regarding the broad strokes. It can also be accurate enough in the major details as records of traveling troubadours in the late medieval shows. Indeed among practitioners of the oral recitation of the entire quran with no mistakes shows accuracy is possible. Coming from a literate culture this can sound impossible to our ears, but like I say I'd not discount it completely. I'd also consider that these texts on Mohammed aren't pure hagiography. On quite a few occasions they relate his mistakes and character flaws and even others berating him. The fact they do that would suggest there may be an actual man behind the later myth.

the Quran was probably written by one person who was from the lower palestine area (ish) who was in daily contact with Jews & Christains;

I dunno. Other researchers find a few hands and strands in the Quran. The text can vary from addressing god, to addressing the prophet to god speaking. It doesn\t have a consistent voice in that regard, which one would expect from a single author. It's style of repetition, phrasing and some contradictions in narrative would also suggest more than one hand(and oral transmission). This would make more sense in an evolving narrative codified on the go as it were.

MagicMarker

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/09/20129112108737726.html

"The US ambassador to Libya, Christopher Stevens, has died from smoke inhalation in an attack on the US consulate in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi, the country's interior ministry and security sources have said.

An armed mob attacked and set fire to the building in a protest against an amateur film deemed offensive to Islam's Prophet Muhammad, after similar protests in Egypt's capital."

Wibbs

MagicMarker wrote: »

An armed mob attacked and set fire to the building in a protest against an amateur film deemed offensive to Islam's Prophet Muhammad, after similar protests in Egypt's capital."

Crazy stuff, though to be fair a flick designed to wind up by an avowed anti Islamic Israeli was hardly gonna end well. If a Muslim director shot a flick entitled "Moses the directionless murdering bastard" he'd not exactly be welcomed with open arms in Tel Aviv by a section of their religious nutters.

iba

Wibbs wrote: »

Ditto, though sadly doesn't surprise. Both Christians and Jews have a long history of scholarship of their respective texts and while arguments kick off they seem to be far less aggressive in nature than similar arguments when scholarship is attached to the Islamic texts. Now I could understand if this was just restricted to the quran as unlike the other faiths the book itself is considered holy, but similar responses get bandied about concerning other Islamic texts.

Some influences certainly, though one must apply more rigour when that can be taken too far. EG the Horus/Jesus connection which has near zero evidence for it. I can't recall the name of that viral youtube thing on this subject, but it was lapped up and there was barely a single claim that held up.


Maybe, but there is some evidence of a Mohammed figure arising among the Arabs. Mecca has no outside sources, so I'd not believe the back story of it's importance, however I'd be open to it's existence as an important part of the narrative. Why? Because of it's very lack of outside evidence. If they wanted to grandstand or invent a place they would have picked a better example.
Most likely, or a cobbling together of myth and oral history. While oral history is most certainly open to Chinese whispers, I'd not discount it entirely regarding the broad strokes. It can also be accurate enough in the major details as records of traveling troubadours in the late medieval shows. Indeed among practitioners of the oral recitation of the entire quran with no mistakes shows accuracy is possible. Coming from a literate culture this can sound impossible to our ears, but like I say I'd not discount it completely. I'd also consider that these texts on Mohammed aren't pure hagiography. On quite a few occasions they relate his mistakes and character flaws and even others berating him. The fact they do that would suggest there may be an actual man behind the later myth.
I dunno. Other researchers find a few hands and strands in the Quran. The text can vary from addressing god, to addressing the prophet to god speaking. It doesn\t have a consistent voice in that regard, which one would expect from a single author. It's style of repetition, phrasing and some contradictions in narrative would also suggest more than one hand(and oral transmission). This would make more sense in an evolving narrative codified on the go as it were.

Just to clarify, Im not saying Mecca didnt exist, it did exist as a small provincial town/nomadic campsite, but Mohamad or whoever wrote the Quran was not from there. I think it exists, Mecca that is, as part of the narrative for two reasons a)to make the point that the Quran/Islam originated in Arabia and b) to try and make the point that Mohamad (as the writer of the Quran) must have received his revelations from above because someone living in this small provincial place would not have the knowledge to be able to write the Quran without intervention from above.

hadiths/Sunna - obviously I dont know forsure, but I would say that it mus be over 90% made-up at least - indeed there are hadiths that even contradict the Quran eg teh Quran says teh punishment for adultery is a whipping/lashing whereas the Hadith says stonning to death. I know this is an extreme example but also a very important one.

As for the Quran, in my opinion, if as the Muslims claim, it has come from above, well then it seems to me to be written in the wrong tense - but that could just be me cause Ive never heard anybody else mention this.

Also I would like to mention Ramadan, the fasting from dawn till dusk. Now in this day and age we know that some countries have more daylight and vice-versa than others - eg. parts of Canada & Scandanavian Countries end up with in excess of 16 hours of daylight during the summer. Now what god in their right mind would be asking people to fast for these considerable, unhealthy periods of time. Now a man living in Palestine/Syria/Jordan in the 7th or 8th century would have no idea that other countries/places would have different daylight hours than their own region; but of course if the Quran had come from a god he would have.

Finally, I woudl dearly love for Archalogists to be able to do their work in Mecca and see what they could find but of course the Saudis will never allow this. In addition, what is inside the Kaba? My guess is a Meterote, which back then would have been something amazing and astounding and could easily of started off a worshipping craze. And totally finally, I would love if reseach could be done on teh Qurans found in the Mosque in Saana, Yemen in or around 1970 which seem to date from around the 7th or 8th century and would surely reveal a lot about the origins of islam and the Quran etc but alas, like teh Saudis, it looks like the Yemeni Government will never allow this again.

Regards

Iba

iba

Wibbs wrote: »

Crazy stuff, though to be fair a flick designed to wind up by an avowed anti Islamic Israeli was hardly gonna end well. If a Muslim director shot a flick entitled "Moses the directionless murdering bastard" he'd not exactly be welcomed with open arms in Tel Aviv by a section of their religious nutters.

I dare say, not one of the protestors in Cairo or Libya have even seen the movie. And what are they achieving by doing this - only making people more anti-Muslim.

For example, if a movie was made about Jesus sleeping with Mary Magdalene (as some say she was a prostitute), I woudlnt care less and certainly wouldnt go rioting or issuing fatwas on the writers/directors head.

There is a train of thought that Muslim states do not know how to rule themselves/be given freedom and they need dictators to keep control. I dare say that none of this would have happned if Mubarak or Gaddafi was still in charge. Likewise in Tunisia last week, a hotel was attacked by a mob for selling alcohol

TwoShedsJackson

Of course none of the protestors have seen it, they just want to get in on the 'Passion of St. Tibulus' style outrage.