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Can I Come Home Yet?
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I can understand how you miss Ireland OP but the economy is in ruins - I would have to advise you to stay in Oz for now. Degrees seem to count for little with so few jobs available - just the new irish ' job ' of unpaid internships.
Unless you do a degree in one of the fields I mentioned. Do you think I'm making it up? Analsyt jobs are everywhere now, every company is setting up or expanding their analytic areas, for example mobile phone companies are expanding in the area of statistical scorecard for contract applications, MNC are expanding business analysis, hell, even the Dept of Finance hired 30 new analysts this month. Being able to measure things is a valuable skill to any employer. A degree in Latin Cultural Studies isnt. Also, it's incredibly flexible, you don't get pidgeon holed into one profession like a solicitor, carpenter, IT; where you are vunerable if your area takes a nosedive. Let me give an example, financial services are currently shedding jobs by the bucketload across all areas but one. Analytics. In fact, they are expanding those areas. AIB, TSB, BOI, the lot. Even if your area those suffer, Maths and stats skills can be applied to multiple sectors, thus you are able to quickly adapt to changing economic conditions.0 -
Chazz you do realise the vast majority of people are not suited to a mathematical career?0
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Mr. Loverman wrote: »Chazz you do realise the vast majority of people are not suited to a mathematical career?
No, I think thats a load of bollocks, to be frank. It's the fault of the educational system scaring people away from it by making maths seem harder than it is. The fact is that human brains don't vary by a huge degree, geniuses and dunces are the outliers. Thus, it is the educational experience that makes the difference.
If I may make an observation at this point. I think you are making things up as you go along based on your own anecdotal evidence and presumptions. I am basing my opinion on facts. I don't want to spend the morning correcting your mistakes.0 -
"be it the weather, corruption, friends have all left, etc), and emigrating a 2nd time."
Sounds like your saying there is no corruption in oz.
The guy (or is it?) want to come home.. that is from the heart and he cant help what his heart is telling him.
Come home op
Not saying that at all.
But I'm quoting from Irish people I know (admittedly in NZ, not Oz): I never understood what they meant until I came here myself.
And just warning the lad that many other people in his situation have found that their heart was confused. It's not true for all people, of course, but it is true for some. And in general, if you're unhappy in a place, you may well be unhappy in the next place too.
OP, something else to think about: If you're coming back, then to qualify for any sort of benefit (assuming you don't get a job immediately), you'll need to meet "habitual residence" conditions. The easiest way to do this is to have lived her for two years. But there are other options, including having the paperwork to show that you've cut all ties to the other country - that means things like closing bank account statements, receipts for shipping your stuff here, etc.0 -
Mr. Loverman wrote: »Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »That's why I recommend a maths intensive degree.
In fairness most people could not do a maths degree. Not because maths is hard - it is easy if it is explained properly - but because most maths books and maths teachers don't know how to teach.
I missed this post, I'm on a phone. Ok, so the assumption is that because people have a poor maths education they cannot pursue career in that? Well, maybe this is unique to my story only, but, I got a D3 in OL Maths for the LC. It wasn't because I was bad at maths, I just didn't care when I was 17. Anyway, I did and economics degree at 24 as a maature student, then a masters in economics. I learned maths on college. I had to start with a handicap, for sure, but I just worked my arse off to catch up. I'm nothing special, I can assure you. Anyone can do what I did.0 -
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Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »No, I think thats a load of bollocks, to be frank. It's the fault of the educational system scaring people away from it by making maths seem harder than it is. The fact is that human brains don't vary by a huge degree, geniuses and dunces are the outliers. Thus, it is the educational experience that makes the difference.
If I may make an observation at this point. I think you are making things up as you go along based on your own anecdotal evidence and presumptions. I am basing my opinion on facts. I don't want to spend the morning correcting your mistakes.
OK well let me tell you a little about me.
I have a degree in maths and computer science.
I have a masters degree in computer science.
I have a post grad in statistics (from Stanford, yes, the best university in the world for this sort of thing).
I am also a part qualified accountant (I don't work in finance anymore though).
So it is fair to say I know a little bit about maths and stats, right?
The fact of the matter is you are wrong about most people being suited for a career in a mathematical field. Sure, in an ideal world most maths teachers would not be rubbish and maths books would be written by people who have basic communication skills, but in reality, right now, maths is taught badly and maths books are inaccessible to the average person, nevermind people who are actually pretty good at maths.
Your advice is not realistic. It would be a disaster for the average carpenter, etc., to jump into a maths degree.0 -
Mr. Loverman wrote: »Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »No, I think thats a load of bollocks, to be frank. It's the fault of the educational system scaring people away from it by making maths seem harder than it is. The fact is that human brains don't vary by a huge degree, geniuses and dunces are the outliers. Thus, it is the educational experience that makes the difference.
If I may make an observation at this point. I think you are making things up as you go along based on your own anecdotal evidence and presumptions. I am basing my opinion on facts. I don't want to spend the morning correcting your mistakes.
OK well let me tell you a little about me.
I have a degree in maths and computer science.
I have a masters degree in computer science.
I have a post grad in statistics (from Stanford, yes, the best university in the world for this sort of thing).
I am also a part qualified accountant (I don't work in finance anymore though).
So it is fair to say I know a little bit about maths and stats, right?
The fact of the matter is you are wrong about most people being suited for a career in a mathematical field. Sure, in an ideal world most maths teachers would not be rubbish and maths books would be written by people who have basic communication skills, but in reality, right now, maths is taught badly and maths books are inaccessible to the average person, nevermind people who are actually pretty good at maths.
Your advice is not realistic. It would be a disaster for the average carpenter, etc., to jump into a maths degree.
See above. D3 in OL LC Maths. Perhaps I am Will Hunting, but I doubt it. I reckon I have average intelligence. If I can do it, then most can.0 -
Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »See above. D3 in OL LC Maths. Perhaps I am Will Hunting, but I doubt it. I reckon I have average intelligence. If I can do it, then most can.
The average person does not like maths nor do they have any interest in pursuing a maths degree.
Without both of the above, the average person is not going to sit through the pain of a badly taught, relatively complex, four year maths degree.
You are projecting your own personal experience onto everyone. It's not realistic.0 -
Mr. Loverman wrote: »Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »See above. D3 in OL LC Maths. Perhaps I am Will Hunting, but I doubt it. I reckon I have average intelligence. If I can do it, then most can.
The average person does not like maths nor do they have any interest in pursuing a maths degree.
Without both of the above, the average person is not going to sit through the pain of a badly taught, relatively complex, four year maths degree.
You are projecting your own personal experience onto everyone. It's not realistic.
I must be Will Hunting then. You better tell Stanford.0 -
Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »I must be Will Hunting then. You better tell Stanford.
I suspect it was a combination of motivation, interest and hopefully some good teachers.
The average person, who not only has no interest in maths but probably loathes the subject, would not have the motivation nor interest to get them to the end of the degree. That's reality, I'm sorry.0 -
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Mr. Loverman wrote: »Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »I must be Will Hunting then. You better tell Stanford.
I suspect it was a combination of motivation, interest and hopefully some good teachers.
The average person, who not only has no interest in maths but probably loathes the subject, would not have the motivation nor interest to get them to the end of the degree. That's reality, I'm sorry.
Again, the assumption is that I am an outlier. I don't agree. I also detect a hint of maths snobbery, in your part. The motivation for the subject comes from wanting to better ones life. That was my motivation.0 -
Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »Again, the assumption is that I am an outlier. I don't agree.
I know you don't agree, but you are wrong. I'm sorry.
I just don't want to see average joe's jumping into a maths degree and quickly realising they hate it, they can't do it, and they are not suited to it. That will likely be the experience for the average carpenter who takes your advice and starts a maths degree. I'm sorry if that sounds bad, but it is reality.
Anyway, we are talking in circles now.
EDIT: Please don't call me a maths snob. I am just being realistic. Maths, right now, the way it is currently taught, is not for everyone. It is not for most people. It definitely isn't suitable for people who don't like maths and don't actually want to do a maths degree.0 -
Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »Again, the assumption is that I am an outlier. I don't agree. I also detect a hint of maths snobbery, in your part. The motivation for the subject comes from wanting to better ones life. That was my motivation.
I echo Mr. Lovermans comments. An carpenter (with Junior cert maths) jumping into a maths intensive degree is going to end in tears. No disrespect to the OP intended.
I did honours maths in the LC, have a 2.1 BSc degree in a Scientific area, a grad Dip in a statistical area and I worked for 5 years in telecoms. I returned last year to do a MSc in engineering and it wasnt easy getting reacquainted to the complicated maths as part of an MSc.
You do forget a lot of maths rules in trig, integration, differentiation etc when they you do not use them regularly even for individuals who at one time it would have been second nature.0 -
nogoodnamesleft wrote: »Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »Again, the assumption is that I am an outlier. I don't agree. I also detect a hint of maths snobbery, in your part. The motivation for the subject comes from wanting to better ones life. That was my motivation.
I echo Mr. Lovermans comments. An carpenter (with Junior cert maths) jumping into a maths intensive degree is going to end in tears. No disrespect to the OP intended.
I did honours maths in the LC, have a 2.1 BSc degree in a Scientific area, a grad Dip in a statistical area and I worked for 5 years in telecoms. I returned last year to do a MSc in engineering and it wasnt easy getting reacquainted to the complicated maths as part of an MSc.
You do forget a lot of maths rules in trig, integration, differentiation etc when they you do not use them regularly even for individuals who at one time it would have been second nature.
Right, but to follow my path in economics needs a little knowledge of algebra, calculus and statistics. It isn't as intensive at engineering or a Phd at Stanford.
Loverman, I wasn't attacking you by saying it was 'maths snobbery', but I do think a hint of it is there. I'm not saying he should study quantum mechanics, but most people could manage an MA in Economics if they really tried. I wouldn't consider myself naturally gifted at maths, I had to grind those results out.
Sorry, but the whole 'you're a mere carpenter, you wouldn't understand this fussy maths business, it would just bore you' line smacks of one thing only.0 -
Let me give an example of how bad I was when I started uni. When I began I thought the following was true.
x * y = z
moving y leads to
x = z/-y
That's how terrible my knowledge of maths was. The most basic of algebraic rules. I strongly considered dropped Economics for something like history because I assumed what you guys assumed, my D3 in maths meant I was simply not capable. But I took a gamble and stuck with it. Now I'm an economist for a living, I was previously a risk analsyt. Now, if I met you two back then you would have probably convinced me to drop economics, and I would be an unemployed history grad.
Sorry, but simply stating 'you are wrong' over and over doesnt make it true.
How about this suggestion? If the OP did an Open University module is 'Beginning Maths' (or something) he might find the answer. It should take around 8 weeks to complete such a course and cost only a few hundred quid.0 -
Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »Sorry, but the whole 'you're a mere carpenter, you wouldn't understand this fussy maths business, it would just bore you' line smacks of one thing only.
It is no secret that the average person does not like maths.
It is no secret that the average person finds maths quite difficult. (We both agree the problem is mostly due to the way maths it taught, but the fact of the matter is maths is also taught badly in university, and to make things worse, the maths in university is more complex and the pace of learning is much faster).
It is no secret that a maths degree is quite difficult, even for those with a supposed natural ability at maths.
There is no snobbery here. It is just reality.0 -
If we are to advance successfully into the future with more than an even chance of getting jobs for our unemployed people we need to get better at teaching and developing maths and science skills at all levels.
Maths as it is taught at all levels in our schools is th reasom why I struggled for 30 years in a sector for which I was not suitable and why I am now not able to support myself and my family and am now too late to do anything about it.
My initial advice to the OP would be to stay as far away from Ireland as he can. Below leaving cert carpenters are having to compete with non-national workers for what little work is there at very low wage levels. All input costs, petrol, energy, materials etc are going up in price but the jobs are extremely difficult to get.
Only area I can see as holding on is refurbishment of rental properties, since people cannot get mortgages the rental sector is holding on and people are tending to repair and extend with any available cash they have rather than move house. Roofing is a good area to train in as it is often insurance based and leaves very little room for discretion, customers have to get the job done.....Ireland being such a wet place.
The home office/garden shed sector is also strong as people who have been let go from conventional employment are now working from home and need improvised accommodation for their new businesses. I know at least 4 counsellors and 3 hairdressers working from home. I myself now work from home full time.
Any work you get here will be fraught with uncertainty, taxed to the hilt, expensive to do and with little or no chance of advancement or development in the future.
The downside with Australia is that worldwide depressions tend to hit peripheral countries like Australia and New Zealand harder than US, Canada, UK etc. Australia now has very strong trade links with Southeast Asia and the pacific rim so is not as dependent on Europe as before. Its dependence on mining is worrying, what happens if the mines run out or the markets dry up? It might be a big problem to be in a country on your own with no family ties or relatives or connections to fall back on in times of crisis. I would suggest keeping the airfare home to Ireland saved up just in case but would be in favour of you staying in Australia while you can still earn money, experience, skills etc easier than you would here.
I know people who did courses in tool and plant maintenance who now have internationally recognised quals and can work anywhere in the world with their skills and experience. If you are any good with machines it might be a way to go.
Another path may be quantity surveying or site management or, if you are into maths you could look at learning CAD,Computer Aided Design, especially as it is applied to timber frame housing. This type of housing is becoming popular for the few new houses being built in Ireland.
Good luck at whatever you decide to do.0 -
If you have attention to detail and are very methodical then a career change to Software QA engineer is very possible. I know of a couple of former construction workers who've retrained in IT and are doing this. Their previous experience gave them an edge over other interviewees because they were able to demonstrate the same capabilities that apply equally to Software quality as to construction quality.0
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Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »That's why I recommend a maths intensive degree. Analytics is a rapidly expanding field with opportunities in just about every sector you can think of. Despite the recession, I have not been out of work once and I constantly get offers of interviews on LinkedIn, from a variety of sectors.
Food and climate are too specific, although I am surprised that your "food" daughter could not get work here, given that sector has been performing well.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0420/1224314969971.html
It is a little short sighted to suggest that everyone does maths intensive degrees! Congratulations on having the skills and the good fortune to have a job, it doesn't mean everyone can do the same though. In fact the climate daughter's course was maths intensive - she did science geography rather than arts geography, so jobs tend towards analytics, there is still the issue of a limited number of jobs and getting experience - and getting a drivers licence which is turning out to be more of an issue than might have been realised.
The food situation was a non-starter - and a lot of people have discovered the same thing - food companies are very willing to pay basic graduate wages to have a scientist in their 'lab' to look good when the big supermarkets come calling, but it is a non-job which last a couple of years till they get too expensive and then another cheap graduate is set on. So she is doing a (paid) PhD in the US, and will stay on there to work.0
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