Tailgating and Road Rage

Procrastastudy

dukedalton wrote: »

See above! And presumably the person drivng 30/40k/h below the limit, forcing people to manoever around them, is not keeping up with the conditions!

While I agree - certain issues are the responsibility of the driver - such as not feeling well its defo time to pull over. Are you seriously suggesting you cant think of reasons why someone might be driving under the speed limit? I think you really need to look to your driving style. It really does seem you have an issue with forward planning and thinking. To be fair Ireland doesn't examine hazard perception and it should.

The limit is exactly that a limit. While there should be (if there isn't already) a lower limit it wouldn't be within 30% of the speed limit. No one is forcing you to go around. You could try slowing down.

dukedalton

Shenshen wrote: »

Rules of the Road :

- You must not drive on any part of the motorway that is not a carriageway; for example a hard shoulder, except in case of emergency.
- You must not stop or park on any part of the motorway unless your vehicle breaks down or you are signalled by a Garda to do so.

A slow-performing engine, screaming children or a headache are not emergencies.
And I'm sure you're lucky to drive only on perfectly straight motorways. The ones I've seen so far all had bends and inclines at some point.

If you're having engine trouble, common sense tells you to go into the hard shoulder and stop. You can hardly keep driving if you think it could cut out and leave you in the middle of the motorway. Likewise, if you are feeling ill to the point it's impacting on your driving, I would say it's less safe to be driving- pull into a lay by.

Your other point made reference to drivers slowing because they could see traffic around a bend- don't think this is likely on a motorway.

The whole point of this is that you should match the speed of the traffic on the motorway (SOURCE: http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/joining-the-motorway.html)

dukedalton

Procrastastudy wrote: »

It really does seem you have an issue with forward planning and thinking..

Thanks for the pop psychology, but my many years on the road, no claims bonus and clean driving licence might indicate something different

Shenshen

dukedalton wrote: »

See above! And presumably the person drivng 30/40k/h below the limit, forcing people to manoever around them, is not keeping up with the conditions!

On a motorway, that would be going at 80kph.
Which is incidentally the speed vehicles are required to be able to do. So a car/lorry/motorbike which cannot go faster than 80kph is legally allowed to drive on the motorway.
And nobody if forcing anyone to move around them. You may not realise it, but you do have the option to slow down and drive behind them if you want to.

It BeeMee

dukedalton wrote: »

It's not safe and reasonable when you're cruising along at 120k/h and some fool is doing 90-100k/h and you have to brake or switch lanes suddenly because of them. Source: common sense.

dukedalton wrote: »

For the last one, I haven't yet come across a motorway with a corner.

Why would you have to "brake or switch lanes suddenly" when you've plenty of time to see them ahead of you?

Procrastastudy

dukedalton wrote: »

Thanks for the pop psychology, but my many years on the road, no claims bonus and clean driving licence might indicate something different

Nope just indicates one of two things.

a) your braver behind the keyboard
b) you've been lucky

doesn't show you've any consideration for other people.

I've rarely come across anyone but a little old lady doing 80KPH on a motorway. 100KPH is reasonable in even the best road conditions. There's a lane for you to use to overtake if you wish.

dukedalton

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Nope just indicates one of two things.

a) your braver behind the keyboard
b) you've been lucky

doesn't show you've any consideration for other people.

I've rarely come across anyone but a little old lady doing 80KPH on a motorway. 100KPH is reasonable in even the best road conditions. There's a lane for you to use to overtake if you wish.

My many years on the road, no claims bonus and clean driving licence indicated I'm braver behind the keyboard? Riddle me that one! And we're all lucky. You could be the best driver in the world and something might happen you on the road.

Just to be clear, I don't speed and I'm not advocating anyone to speed. And I drive to the appropriate conditions. My problem is with people who choose to drive significantly slower than the limit for no other reason than "it's the speed I'm comfortable with". If you've passed a driving test, you should have no problem going to the legal limit in normal driving conditions. If you can't, I'd suggest more lessons. And don't take my word for it- according to the RSA you should make reasonable progress, keeping up with the traffic around you (Source: http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/joining-the-motorway.html)

Shenshen

dukedalton wrote: »

If you're having engine trouble, common sense tells you to go into the hard shoulder and stop. You can hardly keep driving if you think it could cut out and leave you in the middle of the motorway. Likewise, if you are feeling ill to the point it's impacting on your driving, I would say it's less safe to be driving- pull into a lay by.

Your other point made reference to drivers slowing because they could see traffic around a bend- don't think this is likely on a motorway.

The whole point of this is that you should match the speed of the traffic on the motorway (SOURCE: http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/joining-the-motorway.html)

I recently had engine problems on my car. It wasn't cutting out, it was just slow in speeding up, and wouldn't go over 90/100kph.
I was on my way home from work when I noticed. And no, I did not see that as sufficient reason to pull onto the hard shoulder, the car was still going even if it was slower than usual. I kept to the left lane and drove home.
Had I pulled over to the hard shoulder, I would not have removed myself as an "obstacle". I would have sat on the side, drivers passing me would have been required to slow down for safety. And how would you imagine I would have got off the hard shoulder again? Disappeared by magic? Called a tow-tuck (which probably would have gone slower than my car did anyway)?

And I would have to ask the same question about someone not feeling too well... do you think they'd just park on the hard shoulder and sleep it off for a few hours? They will have to get home one way or another.
Now, I'm definitely not advocating driving when you can't see out of your eyes for pain and nausea, don't get me wrong. But people can suffer from a headache, bad back, etc. and still be capable of driving. If they choose not to drive at the absolute limit of what is allowed, I do find that understandable.

MagicSean

dukedalton wrote: »

It's not safe and reasonable when you're cruising along at 120k/h and some fool is doing 90-100k/h and you have to brake or switch lanes suddenly because of them. Source: common sense.

Seems to be a line of defence on this thread that it's OK for people to do significantly less than the speed limit if that's their "level" of driving. This is complete nonsense. What is the point of having a driving test system? To ensure everyone on the road is at a certain standard, i.e. not plodding along at 90 on a motorway. Similarly, why are L drivers not permitted on a motorway?

dukedalton wrote: »

See above! And presumably the person drivng 30/40k/h below the limit, forcing people to manoever around them, is not keeping up with the conditions!

these two posts indicate that you are a bad, and possibly dangerous, driver. and like most bad drivers you don't see it and blame everyone else. A person driving slowly does not "force" you to do anything. if you are driving with the appropriate care and attention then you will be able to see any possible dangers before you have to slam on your brakes or swing into another lane. I only hope that on the day you discover all this you don't take someone out with you.

Procrastastudy

It would seem your definition of reasonable and others would differ. Perhaps use this thread as an unscientific test as to where that level is.

You've clearly a long and distinguished career on the road, with no accidents and not so much as a ticket. Isn't is possible that not everyone is to your standard and therefore should exercise more caution? Is it possible that people in smaller older cars should exercise more caution than someone in a newer larger car?

Is it possible that the traffic if behind something that is legally required to do 80KPH and have just decided to slow down and take an extra few minutes getting to where they need to be?

dukedalton

MagicSean wrote: »

these two posts indicate that you are a bad, and possibly dangerous, driver. and like most bad drivers you don't see it and blame everyone else. A person driving slowly does not "force" you to do anything. if you are driving with the appropriate care and attention then you will be able to see any possible dangers before you have to slam on your brakes or swing into another lane. I only hope that on the day you discover all this you don't take someone out with you.

Thanks for the good wishes Sean, we do all have to look after one another out there.

I think you will find that I didn't use the word "slam" to describe my braking.

And I think you will find that someone driving dangerously slowly does force you to do something, because if you slow down suddenly (even with the "two second rule") you are then a hazard for the person behind you.

And I'll say it again- I don't speed, and am not on here trying to encourage others to do so

Shenshen

dukedalton wrote: »

My many years on the road, no claims bonus and clean driving licence indicated I'm braver behind the keyboard? Riddle me that one! And we're all lucky. You could be the best driver in the world and something might happen you on the road.

Just to be clear, I don't speed and I'm not advocating anyone to speed. And I drive to the appropriate conditions. My problem is with people who choose to drive significantly slower than the limit for no other reason than "it's the speed I'm comfortable with". If you've passed a driving test, you should have no problem going to the legal limit in normal driving conditions. If you can't, I'd suggest more lessons. And don't take my word for it- according to the RSA you should make reasonable progress, keeping up with the traffic around you (Source: http://www.rotr.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/joining-the-motorway.html)

Funny how we both linked to the same source, only you chose to limit the rules for the motorway down to the rules for joining.

Here's the full rules :
http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

The most interesting sections are :

You must progress at a speed and in a way that avoids interference with other motorway traffic.
You must not drive a type of vehicle that is restricted to a maximum vehicle speed limit of 80 km/h or less in the traffic lane nearest the centre median of the motorway (the outside lane). An exception to this prohibition applies at any location where the speed limit is 80km/h or less.

So a vehicle which cannot do more than 80kph is still allowed to drive on a motorway, albeit not in the right lane

The Speed limits section covers the 'two second rule' to help you keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front. Use this rule on motorways - driving too close hampers your ability to stop safely and significantly reduces your vision ahead.

When in a queue, your instinct may be to get closer to the vehicle in front to protect your position. Please remember that you must leave enough room in front of you to allow you to stop safely.

In summary, doing 80 kph on a motorway is legal.
Tailgating isn't.

You don't slow down suddenly.
either you're some distance behind and approaching a slow driver in which case I would seriously be worried if you didn't notice & match their speed until 2 seconds behind,
or they pull out right in front of you which is a matching speed issue not a "slow driver" issue

dukedalton

Procrastastudy wrote: »

You've clearly a long and distinguished career on the road, with no accidents and not so much as a ticket. Isn't is possible that not everyone is to your standard

Haha, I'm flattered you would think that. I'm not to any superior standard than anyone else. The point I'm trying to make is that the purpose of having a driving test system to to ensure that everyone who's legally on the road has acquired a certain level of skill and competence behind the wheel- why then do people drive 30/40k/h below the limit in normal conditions?

Procrastastudy

I'm not trying to be rude here but there's been half a dozen good and even more bad ones listed above.

Shenshen

dukedalton wrote: »

Haha, I'm flattered you would think that. I'm not to any superior standard than anyone else. The point I'm trying to make is that the purpose of having a driving test system to to ensure that everyone who's legally on the road has acquired a certain level of skill and competence behind the wheel- why then do people drive 30/40k/h below the limit in normal conditions?

Because, as has been pointed out, the conditions that are normal to you may not be normal to them.

Incidentally, I don't think there are many areas in Ireland where the testers would take you onto routes that would even allow you to go faster than 60kph. So someone who just passed their test and is driving on a motorway for the first time may well not yet be comfortable with driving the maximum speed allowed.

dukedalton

Shenshen wrote: »

Funny how we both linked to the same source, only you chose to limit the rules for the motorway down to the rules for joining.

Here's the full rules :
http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

The most interesting sections are :

You must progress at a speed and in a way that avoids interference with other motorway traffic.


In summary, doing 80 kph on a motorway is legal.
Tailgating isn't.

Now, I would read that as in normal conditions you should drive at or near the limit, i.e. not cause an obstruction to others.

Look, let me make this clear- I'm not complaining about someone doing a couple of Ks below the limit. It's the inordinantly slow drivers I can't understand.

I am not advocating speeding, nor have I ever said tailgating is right.

Shenshen

dukedalton wrote: »

Now, I would read that as in normal conditions you should drive at or near the limit, i.e. not cause an obstruction to others.

Look, let me make this clear- I'm not complaining about someone doing a couple of Ks below the limit. It's the inordinantly slow drivers I can't understand.

I am not advocating speeding, nor have I ever said tailgating is right.

I don't think you ever will understand them, because in order to do so you'd probably have to stop each and every one of them and ask them.
A good few reasons as to why they may have decided to driver slower than allowed have been pointed out, but I do not for a moment think that this is all there is. Earlier in the thread, people have even provided reasons and explanations why people might be speeding (if you'll accept them is up to you of course), so why dismiss the reasons for driving slower out of hand?

Just give them the benefit of the doubt, pass them when safe and be on your way. Why get worked up about it?

dukedalton

Shenshen wrote: »

I don't think you ever will understand them, because in order to do so you'd probably have to stop each and every one of them and ask them.
A good few reasons as to why they may have decided to driver slower than allowed have been pointed out, but I do not for a moment think that this is all there is. Earlier in the thread, people have even provided reasons and explanations why people might be speeding (if you'll accept them is up to you of course), so why dismiss the reasons for driving slower out of hand?

Just give them the benefit of the doubt, pass them when safe and be on your way. Why get worked up about it?

OK Shenshen, maybe you've hit something there. I'm wondering myself why I get worked up about it, why have I posted about thirty times on this thread, about three times more than all my other posts combined. I suppose the reason is it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that speeding is wrong, and dangerous. The RSA has spent a lot of time and money educating drivers on proper driving- and the message has been to slow down. As someone who qualified in the last ten years I would say the standard of training I went through to get my licence was much higher than people of previous generations (and certainly those who only had to apply in writing!). Having done that, it annoys me to hear people using the excuse that "I'm not comfortable doing the limit". The point of all the RSA's work surely has been to get people to an acceptable standard- that standard is to drive at or near the limit (on a standard road, in normal conditions). And while people who speed are rightly vilified for creating accidents and worse on the road, there is comparatively little outrage about accidents caused by people driving inordinantly slowly. Is this because the stereotype of speedsters is the sinister young males? Is it because the stereotype of the slow driver is old Mary down the road, who wouldn't hurt a fly? In my eyes, those people who drive too slow are as much in need of education as someone driving too fast for the road conditions.

Over and out.

MagicSean

dukedalton wrote: »

Thanks for the good wishes Sean, we do all have to look after one another out there.

I think you will find that I didn't use the word "slam" to describe my braking.

And I think you will find that someone driving dangerously slowly does force you to do something, because if you slow down suddenly (even with the "two second rule") you are then a hazard for the person behind you.

And I'll say it again- I don't speed, and am not on here trying to encourage others to do so

"Brake suddenly" and "slam on the brakes" are the same thing. There's no point in arguing semantics. It's clear what you meant.

You keep talking about the two second rule. That's fine for someone who has just started driving but anyone with experience knows it's bull**** and you have to adjust your speed according to conditions and potential hazards.

jmayo

Shenshen wrote: »

...
A slow-performing engine, screaming children or a headache are not emergencies.
And I'm sure you're lucky to drive only on perfectly straight motorways. The ones I've seen so far all had bends and inclines at some point.

Do you have any kids ?
Kids screaming are not emergencies, but they are damm distracting.

Shenshen wrote: »

Because, as has been pointed out, the conditions that are normal to you may not be normal to them.

Incidentally, I don't think there are many areas in Ireland where the testers would take you onto routes that would even allow you to go faster than 60kph. So someone who just passed their test and is driving on a motorway for the first time may well not yet be comfortable with driving the maximum speed allowed.

Basically what you are saying is that some people who have passed their driving test are not competent enough to drive at or near 120kph ?
To me that means they should not be on the road.

Actually seeing the quality of our Irish multilane driving I would agree.
In any other country the lane hogging, multilane cutting to off ramps, etc would have people driven off the road.

This is part of the problem with our testing system where motorway or multilane carriageway driving is not covered.

BTW I would bet that within a few miles of any current test route are roads that are capable of 100kph nevermind 80kph.

the_syco

And I've had to slow down as the person in the overtaking lane is going slower than the people in the inside lane. The would usually be going between 20kmph to 40kmph slower than the speed limit, and maybe 10kmph slower than the people on the inside lane. And I have to stay behind them until they move in, as in this case it would be illegal to undertake them.

Shenshen

jmayo wrote: »

Do you have any kids ?
Kids screaming are not emergencies, but they are damm distracting.

Which is why it might be a good idea to slow down while you're being distracted.

Basically what you are saying is that some people who have passed their driving test are not competent enough to drive at or near 120kph ?
To me that means they should not be on the road.

Actually seeing the quality of our Irish multilane driving I would agree.
In any other country the lane hogging, multilane cutting to off ramps, etc would have people driven off the road.

This is part of the problem with our testing system where motorway or multilane carriageway driving is not covered.

BTW I would bet that within a few miles of any current test route are roads that are capable of 100kph nevermind 80kph.

No, what I'm saying is that while they may be well competent enough in normal circumstances, they might not be happy to do the maximum speed at this particular moment, for reasons that may or may not be obvious to other drivers.
Just because someone in front of you is driving at 90 rather than 120 doesn't mean that person will always go this speed. They are doing so at the moment, and there could be literally hundreds of reasons why they do it.
It's not a legal requirement to do the maximum speed limit at all times, so they are well within their rights to drive below it if they feel the need to do so. If they're not going along at near stand-still pace, I honestly do not see them as a danger as great or greater than people speeding and tailgating.

the_syco

Shenshen wrote: »

Which is why it might be a good idea to slow down while you're being distracted.

You should not be driving if you cannot keep your mind on the road. If the person in front has to brake suddenly due to someone on the road, the distracted parent could plow into the back of the them. If you want to attend to the kids, pull in, and attend to them. Otherwise keep your eye on the road in front of you, and the cars around you.

TheChizler

the_syco wrote: »

Shenshen wrote: »

Which is why it might be a good idea to slow down while you're being distracted.

You should not be driving if you cannot keep your mind on the road. If the person in front has to brake suddenly due to someone on the road, the distracted parent could plow into the back of the them. If you want to attend to the kids, pull in, and attend to them. Otherwise keep your eye on the road in front of you, and the cars around you.

Except not on a motorway...

gsxr1

Chauncey wrote: »

I love giving lifts to people like you.

"You will drive slowly, won't you? I get very nervous in cars."
"Yes, I will, yeah."

NNEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAOOOWWWW! Beep beep! Get the **** out of it! BEEP! BEEEEEEEEEEP!
And so on.

And then they see how a dick really drives a car.

Elfinknight

the_syco wrote: »

And I've had to slow down as the person in the overtaking lane is going slower than the people in the inside lane. The would usually be going between 20kmph to 40kmph slower than the speed limit, and maybe 10kmph slower than the people on the inside lane. And I have to stay behind them until they move in, as in this case it would be illegal to undertake them.

It's not illegal to pass them on the left in a multi lane road. The rules of the road covers this situation.
An earlier poster actually quoted them. (Zerks in post 554)

TheChizler

Elfinknight wrote: »

It's not illegal to pass them on the left in a multi lane road. The rules of the road covers this situation.
An earlier poster actually quoted them. (Zerks in post 554)

Do you mean two lanes next to each other? It's still overtaking even if in separate lanes. The act is quite clear in saying this is not allowed. It goes into detail including the lane on the right in one of the exceptions, which implies that overtaking laws apply to multi-lane roads.

gsxr1

Aisha Flabby Tights wrote: »

The further forward you sit, the closer to the steering wheel you are.
The closer to the steering wheel you are, the more your elbows are bent.
The more your elbows are bent the less movement you have in your arms.
If something unexpected happens on the road and you need to take evasive action you have a better chance of turning the wheel quickly with outstretched arms than bent arms close to your chest.

Try it there now. Bend your elbows (imagine your sitting right up on top of the steering wheel as if it's close to your chest) and pretend you're turning the wheel.

Now try it again only this time imagine the steering wheel is further away from you - so that you have to have your arms outstretched more to reach it....

So why do rally drivers do the exact opposite to this?. Bent arms and close to the wheel is how they are positioned inside the car.
Giving them better control.

I sit back myself for comfort . Plus a steering column into the chest would be a nasty way to die if a crash took place..

Elfinknight

TheChizler wrote: »

Do you mean two lanes next to each other? It's still overtaking even if in separate lanes. The act is quite clear in saying this is not allowed. It goes into detail including the lane on the right in one of the exceptions, which implies that overtaking laws apply to multi-lane roads.

When I said multi lane road I meant any road with more than one lane going in the same direction, excluding the hard shoulder.

Seeing as you asked the question, I have looked up the rules of the road on the RSA website and copied and pasted it below. I hope it helps clarify the situation for overtaking on the left for everyone.

You may overtake on the left when
You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved
out and signalled that they intend to turn right.
You have signalled that you intend to turn left.
Traffic in both lanes is moving slowly and traffic in the left-hand lane is
moving more quickly than the traffic in the right-hand lane.