Advice on a new (to me) Clays Over and Under Shotgun, but which one?

Younumty

Thankfully I am in a position to get a sporting clays gun after a few years of saving, your expert advice is needed please....

I am in the market for a new or used shotgun, circa €2000 - €2500. I'm an average shot at best and have been shooting sporting clays for 5 years now. I really enjoy it and want to move up in the gun stakes. I've been a rifle shooter for a long time, but since moving back to Ireland have not shot the big stuff I used to enjoy as things are quite restrictive here (in my opinion).
I started off with an inexpensive used over and under and then bought my current gun two years ago, again an inexpensive gun.

I have a H&R semi at the moment and plan to keep it for the field, I'm pretty happy with it even though it's an entry level gun. It fits me well and for the money it has been a great buy.
The only issue is that it let me down shooting my last competetive shoot and threw off my game for the rest of the day. I was more worried about getting another jam than the clay (my excuse anyway):D.

I have noticed that most of the lads around me shoot Beretta, Browning over and unders etc. I've been looking hard, but get conflicting advice from almost everyone that I talk to. So far I'm interested in a Beretta Silver Pigeon Sporting at €2500 new or so and a Kemen KM-4 at around €2500 or so used (95% condition).

I have more guns to see and try this week, but any advice would be welcome. I really don't want to buy something that I won't be happy with as I just can't afford to buy another gun for several few years after this.
I am aware that gun fit is absolutley crucial and plan to have a stock custom fitted later.

I should mention that weight is sort of an issue as I had spinal surgery twice last year, recoil I can live with as it hurts less than the spine!
A couple of pounds weight for me can be the difference between pain or no pain.. that said 7 - 8 pounds and under I can live with.

Advice?

Tikkat3

The world is your oyster as regards gun choice but brand and model wont make the final decision for you, fit will (and weight). Keep in mind that most competent gun smiths can add or remove weight (within reason) from a gun so this gives you more options.

Get to try as many as you can and if possible before laying down that kind of cash, find a RFD or gun smith who can measure you for fit and recommend a tighter choice of models to try.

I have a Browning Ultra XS with adjustable stock and it fits me well but my friend cant shoot with it at all and he is a better shot than me.

Really do try and get as many guns to your should as you can or fire some at the clay grounds and you will soon get an idea of whats right for you.

Hope you find something that gives you many years of accurate shooting.

Cass

With that budget you could have your choice of a lot of good quality new, and second hand guns. The three i would look at are;

• Miroku mk38 ; Depending on the grade you can pay between €1800 - €3500 new and less for second hand ones. They come in 28-32 inch barrels, with adjustable chokes. Weight is around the 8 pound mark.
• Browning Cynergy : Not 100% on price, but the general mark is around €2500 new. Second hand expect to pay less. Weight of gun is around the 7.5 pound mark with variable barre length, and chokes.
• Beretta 682E Gold Sporter : New price is between €2900 to €3300 depending on dealer. Second hand anywhere from €1400 - €2000 depending on age, and condition. Variable barrel length, and chokes. Weight is in and around 8 pound. Other variances of the 682 can go higher in price such as the Trap, etc.

Of the three i am biased, and would look at the Beretta. I love their line of guns, and they all fit like a glove. I've used, and owned the 682E, and 686E. The 686 is more suited for game, but the 682 was dream to shoot.

Your budget will give you a large selection to choose from, however don't be hurried to buy the first one that catches your eye, and also cash is king. I would expect to get everything i wanted if paying cash, and not "settle" for the next bets thing.

A few dealers have great selections of guns so depending on your willingness to travel i would suggest;

Atlantic Shooting and Fishing
Church St,
Graiguecullen,
Co. Carlow
(059) 9179984

Mourne Shooting Grounds
Lough Eigish,
Ballybay,
Co. Monaghan
(042) 9745953
(087) 9969946

Lakelands Shooting Centre
Tullamore Rd,
Mullingar,
Co. Westmeath
(044) 9223127

Ballykeeran Sports
Bullet Rd,
Ballykeeran,
Athlone,
Co. Westmeath
(090) 6473099

Ardee Sports
Pepperstown,
Co. Louth
(041) 6853711
http://www.ardeesports.com

1. Atlantic Sports have a great selection of shotguns, both new, and second hand. The owner, and sons are heavily involved in clays so he is slightly biased towards shotguns.
2. Mourne shooting grounds also has a fantastic range of guns, and a clay range to try out. Sean is the lad there, and nice bloke to deal with. He will treat you right, and is fairly good with prices.
3. Lakelands in Mullingar has a great selection, and all ready to view along the back wall. A little on the expensive side, but carries some of the better brands/models.They also have a clay grounds there to let you try before you buy.
4. Jim in Ballkeeran carries a good line of guns, and i include him because he also carries some of the more expensive makes that other shops don't. He can be slightly more expensive than others, but his gear is top quality.
5. Ardee sports are the main importers of Beretta, and other brands. They have a large showroom, and from what i believe allow you to view or buy. Not sure on that so don't quote me. Their prices are good, and may beat others as they import on a large scale.

johnfaul

You wont go wrong with a Kemen KM4 I prefer the model with the 32" barrels, most of these guns feel different as they can have different barell weight's so have a look at as many as you can and If possible shoot it first.
Remember most of the top shots shoot with 32" barells but as with everything you may find you prefer the shorter one.
Perazzi is also a great choice I have a MX8 and love it.
I previously have a Miroku 38 which is one of the best budget clay guns there are.
Beretta 682's and DT10's are also very nice.
Please remember that Pat sludds would make a stock to suit any of these guns and fit it to your liking for approx 350
I personally would go the s/h route as there are very good deals to be had.
The best of luck in your purchase and remember if possible try before you buy:)

Younumty

Thanks for the detailed answers guys, I have to say that the Kemen felt very good when I mounted it. I am planning to give Pat Sluds a call about the stock when I find the right gun.
One of the lads shooting the Leinster league told me about him. He has done this lads stock and it was very impressive. Fitted him like a glove.
The colour match to the for-end wasn't dead on but it's for my use and I'd prefer a well fitted gun even with minor aesthetic imperfections.
I didn't realise that I could be looking at a DT10 or similar on my budget!!
I'm in no mad rush as I am lucky enough to have a gun of my own to use while I look and with various bird seasons rolling in I'd be using the Semi for the fields anyway.
I will definately ring the dealers suggested and am prepaired to travel anywhere really.
As I said its taken me a few years to get the cash together and changing the gun if I buy the wrong one is just not on the cards financially. Really I'm very lucky to be in the position to buy my gun of a lifetime and hopefully one that lasts for many years.
The difficult bit I think is that the factory stock on the gun that may serve me the best after I get the gun fitted etc. may fit terribly initially and make me choose the wrong one to start with...
I suppose that with a custom stock any gun will fit well, it's just which is the best value and quality along with suiting my particular lack of style that's the unknown to me.
I will take the advice on board and try not to pick a wrong'un.
I quite like the Berettas and so many shooters can't be wrong I suppose. Then again something a bit different that's quality would be nice too..
Choice is confusing as hell let me tell you, particularly when you add in lack of knowledge!!!
Any further advice really appreciated.

Younumty

Well I went out to my club today and took out my first gun to "try before I buy" so to speak. Not that I'm looking at this exact gun, I'm after something way way fresher. I tried the clubs Beretta 682 E that is used for corporates introductory lessons etc. It's had about a million rounds through it, so I was told, but it's as tight as a drum and shot really well for me. It was a twenty eight inch barrelled gun.
I shot 100 shells this evening and enjoyed every minute of it.
Recoil was reasonable, but I did notice the muzzle climbed a bit more than I'm used to, nevertheless it was very easy to point in the right direction again.
I broke more clays today than I have in a long long time. The fact that it has been shot everyday all day for years and has never gone wrong is pretty impressive to me plus it shoots brilliantly.
It shot and handled really well even with the short barrels and a 682 is definatley well up there on my list now. I can see why people go for these Berettas...
I'm trying out the older model Kemen KM4 this coming Saturday. Heard today that they are mechanically troublesome?

upandover

If you can find a gun that matches you in weight, balance and fit, then that's (almost) all that matters. Stating the obvious but a great expensive gun can easily be a crap gun for you. I find the beretta SP very light and for sporting 28" is pretty short unless you're not tall yourself. Try it on fast crossers and see what you think.
Pat Sludds is a brilliant craftsman, I had him put an adjustable comb on for me and it was very well done at a very fair price

owelfisherman

pick up a 682 and you wont be able to put it down!!:D

Dalken

I've shot a Browning 525 Sporter for the last 8 years, they're very strong in the action and are boringly reliable. Some say not as refined as Euro makes like Beretta. For that kinda money though you could buy the new Browning 725, Lakeland Sports in Westmeath stock it, what I like most about them is they have a lower action profile than predecessors, something many gripe about in Brownings. They also have some fancy new trigger system something I know nothing about..still I'd say they're worth looking at.

DeBurca

I shoot mainly DTL and ABT with occasional forays into Trench and have used a Kemen KM4 for the last 7+ years during which I have put more than 35 thousand rounds through it without an ounce of trouble and it is still as tight as the day I got it
It also has a removable trigger group for quick spring change etc if needs be but it is most useful for cleaning oiling and for showing to your friends, plus it can be stored separately from the gun for extra security which is a plus

I have also owned 2 Berettas an older 680 and a 682X with the high rib and Multi chokes plus a selection of other makes including Winchester Remington etc
The reason for changing from a Beretta which had given me long years of trouble free service to a Kemen was that the Kemen is a faster handling gun and for me it has an overall better balance and most important feel to it
Now feel is a very important part of gun fit and is something that cannot be measured as it is different for each and every person

On the rare occasions that I shoot a bit of Sporting or Skeet I use a Miroku 3000 (not made any more)

All of the major makes Browning, Miroku, Kemen, Beretta. Perazzi etc will give you many years of trouble free service with just the minimum of servicing/cleaning/oiling etc so my advice is try them all and go with the one that feels the best to YOU and most of all have fun with
As you will be using it for sporting then a Multi choked Sporter would be a definite asset

With regard to weight a heaver gun has a few advantages as far as recoil is concerned as the perceived recoil is less with a heavier gun and it promotes a smoother swing and is less twitchy
If recoil is going to be a problem then 24g loads are more than a match for 99% of clays

PS a Semi automatic shotgun has even less perceived recoil as the pulse is longer and appears to the shooter as being softer on the shoulder