22000 on the Maynooth commuter service

n97 mini

Last Monday week (13th) I got the last train from Drumcondra for Mayooth. To my surprise it was a 22000.

I rarely get this train: is it usual that it's a 22000, or was it a one off.

I have to say I've grown to despise the regular noisy, smelly and uncomfortable commuter rolling stock on this line, but I found the 22000 a breath of fresh air. As well as being a million times more comfortable they seem to have better acceleration too.

It seems an awful shame that these 22000's are running mostly empty up and down to Sligo when they could serve a much bigger population on the commuter run.

Judgement Day

The 22000s are Inter-City railcars and their use for commuter operations will see them wrecked in double quick time - hopefully your experience will not be a regular occurrence.

Captain Chaos

I'd say it was a one off. There is more 22000 sets than needed right now, which is fortunate as the 29s that normally work the commuter services are due their first heavy maintenance cycle. 98% of the 29000 fleet are needed Mon-Fri so they are in heavy usage.

The 22000 are not designed for commuter runs due to the lack of standing space and the door layout is not suited to fast loading and unloading. The 29s are perfect for those cattle car services.

During the week I saw a 22 on a Balbriggan service normally worked by the 29s. The 22s are normally left to the Dundalk services on the northern line and the 29s take care of everything else.

n97 mini

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The 22000 are not designed for commuter runs due to the lack of standing space and the door layout is not suited to fast loading and unloading.

Outside of peak time there is no need for fast loading/unloading and there were a surplus of seats, considering it was the last train.

I say bring 'em on!

n97 mini

Judgement Day wrote: »

The 22000s are Inter-City railcars and their use for commuter operations will see them wrecked in double quick time -

Wouldn't it be better see them wrecked from use than pristine from lack of use?

CIE

n97 mini wrote: »

Wouldn't it be better see them wrecked from use than pristine from lack of use?

No, because that would be abuse. But then again, if they do start falling apart in commuter service, it really ought to bring into question the procurement methods employed by IE.

The long-term view is still to DART-ise this line. Would the ould 8100 class be preferable to either commuter DMU or intercity DMU now? That cannot be likely.

Hungerford

CIE wrote: »

No, because that would be abuse. But then again, if they do start falling apart in commuter service, it really ought to bring into question the procurement methods employed by IE.

They have already started. I recently got one of the Northern Line units - they certainly are not wearing well under commuter conditions.

gawker

Judgement Day wrote: »

The 22000s are Inter-City railcars and their use for commuter operations will see them wrecked in double quick time - hopefully your experience will not be a regular occurrence.

They run every journey on the Heuston-Kildare commute though? Quite a nice train really.

Judgement Day

gawker wrote: »

They run every journey on the Heuston-Kildare commute though? Quite a nice train really.

I don't think that anybody is disputing whether they are a nice train or not but they will be unfit for inter-city use very quickly if they get used for commuter services.

gawker

Judgement Day wrote: »

I don't think that anybody is disputing whether they are a nice train or not but they will be unfit for inter-city use very quickly if they get used for commuter services.

I wonder if they have any other options though? Do they have enough alternative rolling stock to do these commuter lines without the 22k?

From what I can see they have too many 22ks so they've probably decided "feck it, we will just throw them wherever..."

n97 mini

Judgement Day wrote: »

I don't think that anybody is disputing whether they are a nice train or not but they will be unfit for inter-city use very quickly if they get used for commuter services.

I don't really understand your logic. There are far more commuters than Intercity customers. I don't see why Intercity customers should get any preferential treatment as a result.

When there are no loading issues, i.e. off peak, I would see no issues in using 22000s on commuter runs.

Is what gawker said true? All Kildare commuter services are 29000s?

gawker

n97 mini wrote: »

Is what gawker said true? All Kildare commuter services are 29000s?

Just to clarify I was referring to 22000s.

RonanM123

The 22000 on the Kildare line can operate at 70-100mph which is much higher than the Maynooth services and the main reason that they are used on Kildare line is becasue of they can operate at max speel between Nass-Kildare which stops any delays to intercity services.

The only reason they are on the Northen line is because of the maintance centre in Drogheda. As already said they are not suitable for Maynooth services and they should be taken off the M3 parkway services to and the shuttle service should be worked by 29000 when it starts.

dowlingm

the high density 22Ks were bought as commuter. They shouldn't have been - C4Ks or another high speed 1/3-2/3 door type would have been preferable for that duty - but that is what happened.

xtradel

Saw a 3 car 22000 set last thursday working the early morning Galway to Limerick. First met it at Ardrahan LC and met it again at the LC just before gort....not much speed in it considering i was driving a truck limited to 90kph and still nearly beat it to the LC outside Gort!

LXFlyer

Nothing to do with the train - it's down to the speed restrictions on the track.

LXFlyer

RonanM123 wrote: »

The 22000 on the Kildare line can operate at 70-100mph which is much higher than the Maynooth services and the main reason that they are used on Kildare line is becasue of they can operate at max speel between Nass-Kildare which stops any delays to intercity services.

The only reason they are on the Northen line is because of the maintance centre in Drogheda. As already said they are not suitable for Maynooth services and they should be taken off the M3 parkway services to and the shuttle service should be worked by 29000 when it starts.

Ok - so given the 2800s are no longer in Dublin, does it not make more sense to use the shorter train (22k) on the less densely used service (M3) if spare sets are available to do it?

Either way, people also need to realise that the 22k sets may operate a mix of commuter and Intercity services on the Connolly side on any given day - that could be the most efficient use of the sets.

dublinman1990

I had seen a 3 car 22000 set operating from Connolly to Wexford just before 6pm yesterday evening at Dun Laoghaire.

The only thing is though that every seat within that train was taken while it arrived there. I would say that by looking inside the train; the remaining passengers had to stand until they got through most or all of their train journey home.

LXFlyer

Shock horror. A full train in rush hour at Dun Laoghaire. Incredible. Who would have thought it could happen.

Yet another totally inane post.

n97 mini

gawker wrote: »

Just to clarify I was referring to 22000s.

Oops, my bad. That's skim reading for ya!

Judgement Day

lxflyer wrote: »

Shock horror. A full train in rush hour at Dun Laoghaire. Incredible. Who would have thought it could happen.

Yet another totally inane post.

Presumably the 17.36 Connolly/Wexford inter-city service. Why should inter-city passengers on the Rosslare line have to stand for a substantial part of their journey - oh, that's right some cretin forgot to include Selective Door Opening as part of the specifications for the 22000s which means we are condemned to having 3-piece sets for the next xxx years. :rolleyes:

Captain Chaos

3

Judgement Day wrote: »

Presumably the 17.36 Connolly/Wexford inter-city service. Why should inter-city passengers on the Rosslare line have to stand for a substantial part of their journey - oh, that's right some cretin forgot to include Selective Door Opening as part of the specifications for the 22000s which means we are condemned to having 3-piece sets for the next xxx years. :rolleyes:

The SDO was a massive oversight alright. But one thing to take into consideration is that a 3 car 22 has more seats than a 4 car 29 but the 29 has alot more standing room. The 22s can operate as 4 and 5 car sets as was shown with set 33 or 37, can't remember when one car had to be removed for fire damage and another in a shunting derailment accident. It would be messy from an operational stand point of making up custom formation sizes in depots with the semi permanent couplers but it can be done.

The tender for fitting SDO to the 22s was put out some time ago and there has been no news since. They should fit it to the 29s too while they are at it.

end of the road

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I had seen a 3 car 22000 set operating from Connolly to Wexford just before 6pm yesterday evening at Dun Laoghaire.

which is a service such rolling stock is designed for.

end of the road

if you think sitting on a 29 k to maynooth is bad spair a thought for those who had to put up with them on the rosslare line along with 2800s and earlier 2700s. while the 29s are my favourite commuter railcar theirs only so long you can spend traveling on them as their just not designed for such routes. the 22000s are intercity railcars designed for intercity, regional, and long distance commuter routes which killdare and maynooth aren't. i get why their used on the killdare route but extending the krp to killdare and better use of it would remove the need to use them for such short distances but we are where we are.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

They should fit it to the 29s too while they are at it.

you think so? i suppose in cases where they work in 8 car formations it could be needed but i'd say all the platforms on the routes where they work are long enough to take them?

Jamie2k9

The 22s can operate as 4 and 5 car sets as was shown with set 33 or 37, can't remember when one car had to be removed for fire damage and another in a shunting derailment accident

Almost sure that 22037 didn't operate as a 5 car. It was 22033 and it was only a short time and the set was completly removed from service due to breaking issues as most carrages have different breaking systems.

Captain Chaos

end of the road wrote: »

you think so? i suppose in cases where they work in 8 car formations it could be needed but i'd say all the platforms on the routes where they work are long enough to take them?

Fitting them with SDO would be handy for when they have to work the Rosslare service or cover for a 22 set, there are a few stops that are not long enough for an 8 car formation. A 4 car 29 at crush load all the way to Rosslare must be hellish.

Captain Chaos

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Almost sure that 22037 didn't operate as a 5 car. It was 22033 and it was only a short time and the set was completly removed from service due to breaking issues as most carrages have different breaking systems.

Yep you are right. 33 had fire damage to one car while set 37 that derailed had two or 3 damaged cars and one was a driving end unit so no way could it stay in service.

That is odd about the braking system. I'm not to well up on the 22's specs though.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Fitting them with SDO would be handy for when they have to work the Rosslare service or cover for a 22 set, there are a few stops that are not long enough for an 8 car formation.

true, your right, all though i don't think an 8 car 29 k has ever operated the rosslare line, always been 4 car.

Captain Chaos wrote: »

A 4 car 29 at crush load all the way to Rosslare must be hellish.

well even when not at crush load its hellish as their uncomfortable, theirs a lovely growl off the engines though so that passes the time. i'd say we've more or less said bye bye to them now apart from 1 service maybe.

Jamie2k9

true, your right, all though i don't think an 8 car 29 k has ever operated the rosslare line, always been 4 car.

Think a few stops are to short for a 8 car 2900

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Think a few stops are to short for a 8 car 2900

thats what i meant by (true, your right) replying to the previous post, but thanks anyway.

The ICRs which run on the Kildare services are often those with a fault of some sort. I was once on 22004 on such a service and it was down an engine in one coach. They did the same with the new batch of ICRs, putting them on the Kildare run first, so if they did go belly up they could be recovered easier.

n97 mini

Several 22000s operating the Maynooth run yesterday again.

I noticed IE are replacing blown florescent tubes with new ones of the wrong colour. Has taken the "new" gloss off the carriage I was in, and makes you wonder about maintenance standards and have we broken hand dryers, backed up toilets, non functioning sockets etc to look forward to.

Jamie2k9

non functioning sockets etc to look forward to

The sockets are currently being replaced and a lot of the fleet has being done already.

CIE

Karsini wrote: »

The ICRs which run on the Kildare services are often those with a fault of some sort. I was once on 22004 on such a service and it was down an engine in one coach. They did the same with the new batch of ICRs, putting them on the Kildare run first, so if they did go belly up they could be recovered easier.

Why are five-year-old DMUs so faulty?

kc56

Karsini wrote: »

The ICRs which run on the Kildare services are often those with a fault of some sort. I was once on 22004 on such a service and it was down an engine in one coach. They did the same with the new batch of ICRs, putting them on the Kildare run first, so if they did go belly up they could be recovered easier.

One incidence does not imply the whole fleet is falling apart! It's not as if ICRs are failing every day. In fact, just from seeing reports of failures, the 3 Enterprise trains have more failures that the whole 61 ICRs combined (well maybe not but it seems like it). And just because on one occasion there was a unit with 1 working engine on the Kildare routes does not imply that faulty ICRs are always used on the Kildare route.

IE would not deliberately put a unit with only 1 working engine in service especially on a stop start route as it would not be able to maintain the timetable and the Kildare route has some short turn arounds. It is allowed to operate ICRs with 2 of 3 or 4 of 6 engines running.

kc56

kc56 wrote: »

One incidence does not imply the whole fleet is falling apart!

The driver told me that, I'm friends with him. Was talking to him before the departure. Also, I wasn't implying that "the whole fleet is falling apart" but rather that those with minor issues are often put on the Kildare service.

Jamie2k9

Just to point out when somebody says there is a fault with a set that dosn't mean it affects engines. A set could be operating for days before the fault is repaired. You are able to bypass/isolate the faults and contuine to operate the set as normal. Then there could be cases that the fault causes problems with the engine etc which may cause problems but generaly it should be able to contuine to the next stop/final stop unless there is complete engine failure on the set. Failures of ICR's and long delays are few and far between. All you need to do is look at recent delays/failures of the Cork and Belfast services...

SeanW

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't really understand your logic. There are far more commuters than Intercity customers. I don't see why Intercity customers should get any preferential treatment as a result.

You don't like the 29000 railcars? Great, neither do I. Now imagine you had to stand on one for over 2 hours, because they had been assigned to your Intercity train.

The trains used on a line have to be fit for purpose. That means a crowded, short distance stopping train should have plenty of standing space and easy exits, while a long distance train needs to be designed to maximise seating and comfort.

That's why most people don't want 22ks on short haul commuter service and nobody wants 29ks on long distance Intercity services.

end of the road

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't see why Intercity customers should get any preferential treatment

depends on what you mean by preferential treatment. if you mean more comfortable trains and being able to leave before stopping services then absolutely they should be given priority, its not as if each regional and intercity route has a train every few minutes. if that means commuters waiting a few minutes extra well so be it at least you have a service every few minutes or on the half hour, regional and intercity routes will never have such frequency infact cork is probably lucky to have the hourly frequency.

sdanseo

CIE wrote: »

The long-term view is still to DART-ise this line. Would the ould 8100 class be preferable to either commuter DMU or intercity DMU now? That cannot be likely.

Give me any DART car - LHB or 8500/8600 - over a 29k any day. I find them noisy, cramped and uncomfortable, ugly, slow and smelly - although others seem to like them, for reasons I can't quite fathom. Only benefit to them is the toilets really.

CIE

sdeire wrote: »

Give me any DART car - LHB or 8500/8600 - over a 29k any day. I find them noisy, cramped and uncomfortable, ugly, slow and smelly - although others seem to like them, for reasons I can't quite fathom. Only benefit to them is the toilets really.

The seats in the DMUs are still better. I would be quite browned off sitting in 8100-class seats if I had to ride to Drogheda on them (oh wait, that's right...the last DU proposal had the wires end at Balbriggan, which means one amazing mess awaiting Northern Line commuting if that ever gets built); and even any DART class as far as Balbriggan is stretching it for me.

You sure you're not just looking for stuff to find fault with? EMUs have their own smells as well, whether ozone from overhead wire/pantograph discharge or electric traction motors, or brake particulate smells.

They're still planning on shrinking the EMU fleet by selling off the 8200 class. Definitely won't be a DU.

dowlingm

If electrification was first extended to Maynooth that would soak up a lot of the current EMU fleet, opening the way for "outer suburban" EMUs to be procured for north of Malahide, with toilets and a higher top speed, with the rest of the existing fleet doing Howth-Greystones runs.

I'd love to know what it would take to repower the high density 22s to electric like their cousins in Tunisia and Ukraine... it would be nice if it turned out there was electric distribution conduit there due to model frame commonality.

end of the road

sdeire wrote: »

Give me any DART car - LHB or 8500/8600 - over a 29k any day. I find them noisy, cramped and uncomfortable, ugly, slow and smelly - although others seem to like them, for reasons I can't quite fathom. Only benefit to them is the toilets really.

nice roar from the engine, thats why i like them. nicer sound then the horid sounding engines in the 26 27 and 2800s. all though sending them to sligo and rosslare is just to much.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

nice roar from the engine, thats why i like them. nicer sound then the horid sounding engines in the 26 27 and 2800s. all though sending them to sligo and rosslare is just to much.

Horses for courses I suppose. I can't count the amount of times I've stepped off a 29000 with a headache due to the throbbing engines.

end of the road

CIE wrote: »

They're still planning on shrinking the EMU fleet by selling off the 8200 class.

meh, who will buy them? a brakers maybe, only place their heading i'd say. of course if IE took legal action against alsthom to force them to fix the units with no cost to IE as they were inferior in the first place maybe just maybe they would be in service or at the very least on standby just incase dart underground ever did go ahead. of course it won't so no need for them realy but still enough was payed for them so they should be seeing service but they won't now.

end of the road

Karsini wrote: »

Horses for courses I suppose. I can't count the amount of times I've stepped off a 29000 with a headache due to the throbbing engines.

in fairness some sound damping should have been put in them as most people would find the noise uncomfortable. no i just think the engines have a nice sound, they wouldn't need to be as loud though.

SeanW

CIE wrote: »

They're still planning on shrinking the EMU fleet by selling off the 8200 class. Definitely won't be a DU.

That might have more to do with the altsom darts being sh*te than any plan to reduce the fleet per-se.

Captain Chaos

CIE wrote: »

They're still planning on shrinking the EMU fleet by selling off the 8200 class.

The 8200s have not been used in service since 2007 anyway. The only time there was a shortage of DARTs was when the 8100s went through their upgrade 2005-2007, since they are all back there is no need for the 8200s anymore. There is more than enough DART sets now. The problem will be in another 8-9 years when the 8100s will be due for replacement and the 8500s will need a refit upgrade. Then we will need another 80-90 EMU carriages.

CIE

SeanW wrote: »

That might have more to do with the alstom darts being (no good) than any plan to reduce the fleet per-se

The Metrovicks were also ineffectual and problematic, but they got their life extended by being re-engined, and the ones leased to NIR lasted into the early 90s.

And if there's no plans to reduce the size of the DART fleet, then there ought to have been outstanding plans to either rebuild or replace the 8200 class, I would think.

dowlingm wrote: »

If electrification was first extended to Maynooth that would soak up a lot of the current EMU fleet, opening the way for "outer suburban" EMUs to be procured for north of Malahide, with toilets and a higher top speed, with the rest of the existing fleet doing Howth-Greystones runs

Nice imagination there. I also imagine stuff like electric Pendolinos running Dublin-Cork and Class 221 Super Voyagers doing runs such as Dublin-Sligo. Or maybe GO Transit Rail getting electrified and the MP40PH-3Cs being replaced by the same type of Bombardier TRAXX electric engine that New Jersey Transit uses (the ALP-46A in particular)...

Since the electrification on the Northern Line is supposed to end at Balbriggan (another 14 miles or so up the line), I would presume that IE would regard existing DART types as sufficient for that service. It does beg the question as to what happens to service north of there, though, as well as west of Hazlehatch to/from Kildare. (Does anyone else think Balbriggan-Hazelhatch DART service is viable? because I do not.)

Cookie_Monster

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The 8200s have not been used in service since 2007 anyway. The only time there was a shortage of DARTs was when the 8100s went through their upgrade 2005-2007, since they are all back there is no need for the 8200s anymore. There is more than enough DART sets now. The problem will be in another 8-9 years when the 8100s will be due for replacement and the 8500s will need a refit upgrade. Then we will need another 80-90 EMU carriages.

Why don't they just gut them and have them as trailer carraiges. At the very least the frame and bodywork must be reasonable.

Given it's only a few years since the last 8100s were given a heavy overhaul I would imagine (hope) they'd see a lot more than another 8-9 years only also.