tail docking and microchipping

snipe02

brought the mother in law and her 3 cats to the vets in kilkenny city today while i was waiting i enquired about the cost of getting pups microchipped by them as apposed to doing it myself was told its completely against the law for anyone apart from a trained vet to microchip a dog i had thought that i could legaly do this i then enquired about having a litter of pups tails docked was told under no uncertain terms that it was absolutly against thge law for any dogs tail to be docked and that they would lose their lisence if they did it doesnt matter if its a working dog or not now i thought that it could only be done by a vet if anyone here has any facts on these two matters i would really appreciate your help thanks

Cass

snipe02 wrote: »

........... was told its completely against the law for anyone apart from a trained vet to microchip a dog ..............

I believe only a vet or veterinary nurse can chip a dog. IOW someone registered with the Veterinary council. Not sure if it's law or just a practice.

i then enquired about having a litter of pups tails docked was told under no uncertain terms that it was absolutly against the law for any dogs tail to be docked .......

That much i know is wrong. No vet will perform the procedure, but it is not illegal.

........and that they would lose their licence if they did it doesnt matter if its a working dog or not............

Not sure about loosing their license, but i know that the Vet. Council of Ireland has instructed all it's members to refuse the procedure as they class it as mutilation.

TriggerPL

i know you can buy the chips your self they come in a siringe and you inject them your self into the back of the neck . il fine out where tomorrow , alot cheeper that vet .

and tail docking vets will not do , not sure on the legal aspect of it but remember reading somewhere that in permitted in working dogs .

TriggerPL

Due to new legislation with the IKC you can now implant your own pets as forms from IKC for the registration of a litter do not need to be signed by a veterinary practice,they need only barcode stickers attached.

just found this but cant seem to find the legislation on the ikc website , but there web site is a shambles at the best of time

doyle61

Trigger is right about the chips, you can do it yourself ( although I personally get the vet). Tails can still be docked but the vet council will strike off any vet caught doing it, which pushes it back into the back yard garden shed job. The gas thing is they can still dock a broken tail which then becomes an amputation and as one vet said to me, "the whole thing is crazy". I still get the tails done totally on the qt by that vet so if you enquire around to ( generally) older vets who might be into shooting you might get lucky

shooter88

Try your local DoD shelter I got mine done in wicklow for 15e I'd nearly get myself chiped at 15e

snipe02

TriggerPL wrote: »

i know you can buy the chips your self they come in a siringe and you inject them your self into the back of the neck . il fine out where tomorrow , alot cheeper that vet .

and tail docking vets will not do , not sure on the legal aspect of it but remember reading somewhere that in permitted in working dogs .

that would be great triggerpl thanks

SureHowBad

Trigerpl is spot on. There is no law forbidding you to microchip your own pups. You can buy the microchip for €7.50 per chip which is a site cheaper than getting the vet to do it, they charge €25 a pup down my way. I chipped my first litter myself last year and at the time wasn't sure so rang the kennel club before doing it and posed the question. They told me that there was no problem doing it myself and in fact she passed the comment that the vets have never done them any favours so why should they do the vets any favours!
With regard to docking it depends on the vet as far as I have enquired. The vet practice that we use has some vets that have no problem doing this and others who won't do it. Legally I dont know what is the stance.

snipe02

SureHowBad wrote: »

Trigerpl is spot on. There is no law forbidding you to microchip your own pups. You can buy the microchip for €7.50 per chip which is a site cheaper than getting the vet to do it, they charge €25 a pup down my way. I chipped my first litter myself last year and at the time wasn't sure so rang the kennel club before doing it and posed the question. They told me that there was no problem doing it myself and in fact she passed the comment that the vets have never done them any favours so why should they do the vets any favours!
With regard to docking it depends on the vet as far as I have enquired. The vet practice that we use has some vets that have no problem doing this and others who won't do it. Legally I dont know what is the stance.

thanks for that got your pm will be doing it my self forgot to mention that in the same breath the vet told me this he charged the motrher in law 140 euro for 3 booster injections and a worm dose

TriggerPL

snipe02 wrote: »

that would be great triggerpl thanks

http://www.elfgroup.net/Microchips%20Implanters.html

they were 5 euro a peice in pack of 12 and i think 5 euro postage .

big saving on a litter of 10 or 12

seanmacc

Tail docking can be done yourself at home. We've bred boxers for years and use the elastic method. We use the white type of elastic you can get in hickeys. When the pups are 2-3 days old you tie the elastic tightly around the tails to the desired length and after 5 days they just drop off. Bear in mind once that elastic has been tied there is no room for adjustment and if they're not tight enough you'll get problems. You get a better result with the elastic then when vet hacks them off, the elastic eaves a more rounded tip.

We've done dew claws at home as well but its one job I have to say I hate doing.

garv123

seanmacc wrote: »

Tail docking can be done yourself at home. We've bred boxers for years and use the elastic method. We use the white type of elastic you can get in hickeys. When the pups are 2-3 days old you tie the elastic tightly around the tails to the desired length and after 5 days they just drop off. Bear in mind once that elastic has been tied there is no room for adjustment and if they're not tight enough you'll get problems. You get a better result with the elastic then when vet hacks them off, the elastic eaves a more rounded tip.

We've done dew claws at home as well but its one job I have to say I hate doing.

Lots of things can be done at home but that doesn't mean its legal like what the OP is asking about.


The vets where the mother worked doing vet nursing would't dock the tails unless it needed to be done..eg broken tail or infection or stuff like that) and when they do it the dog is put under.


I think its made that they say tail docking is cruel and its mutating the dog yet they will bread dogs for generations to cause defects like the short flat nose or the ridgeback with no bother.. Anyway thats not for the hunting forum.

I read up on bits and pieces on-line and the tail docking seems to vary from link to link.

Apparently the vet council wont let anyone do it and they control the licences.

lb1981

The vets in this country are taking the piss big time with their prices, the booster shots they charge you 180 euro for cost 8 euro to buy.
The chemist i bought them from for years now refuse to sell me them as the vets kicked up about it.... so found another chemist that would sell me them..saves a fortune with litters and very simple to do.
As for tail docking you may do it yourself now at home if you have a litter because the vets wont do it ...well certain vets will do it on the Qt but you would have to know them and i dont think they would like it advertised as they would get in trouble for it.
It is simple to do yourself if you know what your doing and does save the dog a lot of hassle in the long run...It is a joke for working dogs and exceptions should be made and would cut out the botch jobs that some fools carry out.

seanmacc

garv123 wrote: »

Lots of things can be done at home but that doesn't mean its legal like what the OP is asking about.


The vets where the mother worked doing vet nursing would't dock the tails unless it needed to be done..eg broken tail or infection or stuff like that) and when they do it the dog is put under.


I think its made that they say tail docking is cruel and its mutating the dog yet they will bread dogs for generations to cause defects like the short flat nose or the ridgeback with no bother.. Anyway thats not for the hunting forum.

I read up on bits and pieces on-line and the tail docking seems to vary from link to link.

Apparently the vet council wont let anyone do it and they control the licences.

I believe the legislation is lacking in this state. I believe it is only legal if a vet does it. This leaves the breeders in an awkward situation and as a result they are all docking tails themselves. Its bordering on the farce level. What are the Gardaí to do? Go down to a dog show and round up all the working dog breeders?

At the end of the day the reason working dogs such as rotweillers, boxers and dobermans have their tails docked is not aesthetic but to save the animals from getting painful injuries

pheasntstalker

its a bloody joke for sure:mad::mad: i would hope that someone cops on and legalize it,i havnt ever docked any pups tails
(yet) that was always done by late father or nowadays is done by the father in law,but delighted now that u can chip the pups urself and father inlaw can get the boosters from a chemist cheaper

SillyMangoX

Its legal to dock the tails of a pup under a week old, leave it any longer and its illegal without anaesthetic. If the new animal welfare bill comes in it will be illegal all together. Its frowned upon by vet council and there would be repercussions for any vet docking for cosmetic purpose, but as a vet said to me before she prefers it be done with local anaesthectic and a sterile blade herself than someone with a rusty carpet knife. Asking around vets you may find one who will do it, but on the down low i.e dont go in shouting about it if the office is full of clients.

snipe02

SillyMangoX wrote: »

Its legal to dock the tails of a pup under a week old, leave it any longer and its illegal without anaesthetic. If the new animal welfare bill comes in it will be illegal all together. Its frowned upon by vet council and there would be repercussions for any vet docking for cosmetic purpose, but as a vet said to me before she prefers it be done with local anaesthectic and a sterile blade herself than someone with a rusty carpet knife. Asking around vets you may find one who will do it, but on the down low i.e dont go in shouting about it if the office is full of clients.

have no prob doing it myself but like the vet said it would make better sense if only vets were to do it not the other way round

ADAlliance

For goodness sake people - you are dealing with a sentient being not a toy! Microchipping needs to be done by someone who knows what they are doing and can ensure that the microchip will not be planted incorrectly so that it doesn't migrate to the heart.
Regarding docking - dogs can die as a result of being docked/having their tails amputated/mutilated but no-one is going to admit to that are they? It is absolute myth that every undocked dog of any breed is going to suffer a tail injury whether "worked" or not "worked" - so much depends on the care that is given to their well being/safety.
The majority of Europe has banned docking, why is Eire so much behind the times! The Vets are right!

dev110

Lads attack the post not the poster!

lb1981

If it is done with in 3 days of the pup being born it is like cutting the cord.I have done it and seen it being done for 25 years, the pups give a small whimper but thats it , a new scalpal dis- infected some twine and bottox powder and the job is done.
I have seen horrible injuries to undocked dogs ,some of the wounds never heal properly and the blood they loose leaves them weak , docking wipes out these injuries.

TriggerPL

ADAlliance wrote: »

For goodness sake people - you are dealing with a sentient being not a toy! Microchipping needs to be done by someone who knows what they are doing and can ensure that the microchip will not be planted incorrectly so that it doesn't migrate to the heart.
Regarding docking - dogs can die as a result of being docked/having their tails amputated/mutilated but no-one is going to admit to that are they? It is absolute myth that every undocked dog of any breed is going to suffer a tail injury whether "worked" or not "worked" - so much depends on the care that is given to their well being/safety.
The majority of Europe has banned docking, why is Eire so much behind the times! The Vets are right!

First addressing the Europe comment and the vets are right . Get with it laws made by people that have no understanding of the breeds or working of these dogs , any spaniel man will tell you about the injuries cause to tails while out hunting . Tails were docked for a hundred years suddenly some twat in a government looking for votes from a bunch of anti's go and changes the law .

Now for the vets , vets over charge you for everything they do and for medication you get . Some stuff u can get in chemist for a quarter of the price . And micro chip into the blood streem seriously like . I done work expeirance in a vets as part of my course I was doing and was let micro chip several dogs , it a simple job . And one that shouldn't cost 25 euro a pup . Like most anti's you are talking about something you have no expeirance in , either that or your a vet trying to protect your pocket . So which is it ?

terminator2

from what ive read the company supplying the microchipping equipment run a course to show you how to microchip properly ......screw the vets ...our local vet charged me €250 for three stiches in the dogs leg , i vaccinate and worm my own dogs now , she wont get any more business off me:mad::mad:

snipe02

ADAlliance wrote: »

For goodness sake people - you are dealing with a sentient being not a toy! Microchipping needs to be done by someone who knows what they are doing and can ensure that the microchip will not be planted incorrectly so that it doesn't migrate to the heart.
Regarding docking - dogs can die as a result of being docked/having their tails amputated/mutilated but no-one is going to admit to that are they? It is absolute myth that every undocked dog of any breed is going to suffer a tail injury whether "worked" or not "worked" - so much depends on the care that is given to their well being/safety.
The majority of Europe has banned docking, why is Eire so much behind the times! The Vets are right!

there are so many factors here that you could not say either side is completely right or wrong yes docking can lead to death or serious infection but only if its not done correctly or safely or as lb1981 said within the correct time there will be people here whom have docked possibly hundreds of tails throughout their lives without seeing a single problem the same goes for undocked working dogs not every single one will suffer recurrent injuries but i garentee if the dog is any good and is undocked it will suffer injury and chronicly until its either retired (in which case its no longer a working dog ) or operated on which will cause more severe suffering and trauma to the animal suffering that can be almost completely be avoided if done in the correct way at the correct time we all have views and feelings on this but it is far from black and white if it were possible for people to have this proceedure done by a vet it would eliminate the rusty blades and fishing line jobs which are clearly the acts of a few irresponsible dog owners if your not confident you should ask someone who is its quite obvious that the people making these judgements and decisions know nothing of working dogs and are only able to see things from their own point of view and think they know best and are doing the right thing well its time they opened their eyes

jap gt

terminator2 wrote: »

from what ive read the company supplying the microchipping equipment run a course to show you how to microchip properly ......screw the vets ...our local vet charged me €250 for three stiches in the dogs leg , i vaccinate and worm my own dogs now , she wont get any more business off me:mad::mad:

what do you give them to vaccinate, mine are due soon

snipe02

jap gt wrote: »

what do you give them to vaccinate, mine are due soon

a seven in one booster shot once a year should cost about eight euro

jap gt

snipe02 wrote: »

a seven in one booster shot once a year should cost about eight euro

yea i do it every year, is it from a chemist ye get it, and what name is it under, do i just ask for a 7 in 1

lb1981

terminator2 wrote: »

from what ive read the company supplying the microchipping equipment run a course to show you how to microchip properly ......screw the vets ...our local vet charged me €250 for three stiches in the dogs leg , i vaccinate and worm my own dogs now , she wont get any more business off me:mad::mad:

Tell me about it , my cocker got knocked down outside the house so had to run up to the local vet ,i thought she was ****ed blood coming out of her mouth,they played on my panic and sowed it into me price wise, overnight stay , and told me they stitched her leg and bandaged it up. The blood was just a bust gum ,they seen that straight away but let me worry all night that the dog had internal injuries, the dog pulled the bandage off after 2 days and there were no stitches just a red raw leg.
They charged me 380 euro for what was ment to be 10 stiches a xray ,bandage , pain killer injection and overnight stay .They caught me off gaurd as i was so concerned about the dog but i went back up and went mental ...got refunded half of it.
Have simular stories i could tell ... one vet let the wifes family boxer go through months of visits and medication which totaled 4000 euro ..thats not including the money it cost for a trip UCD vetenry center (1000). the dog had tumors all over him and they just kept removing them and giving tablets, the dog was in agony in the end and kept having siezures and the whole family were devestated when he was put down...that vet should have put that dog down from the start instead of putting the dog and family through that just so she could line her pockets, and that is just one story.

As for that bull**** about only vets being able to chip dogs ,i have seen the assistants doing it most of the time i had to get it done

garv123

We had our vet diagnose our Rothweiler with epilepsy when he was having fits for over a year even when he was on tablets for it and he went from been one of the finest 12 stone dogs down to about 8 stone. Brought him to a different vet and he said the dog had diabetes and was gone so bad the medication was unaffordable and he had to be put down:mad::(
Last time we ever went back to the other vet after pumping so much money into the dog on the wrong medication with constant trips to the vet.

TriggerPL

dev110 wrote: »

Lads attack the post not the poster!

Would we do anything like that !

snipe02

just had a chat with my own vet he said the microchipping is handy enough but care is needed and that he recieved a letter a few weeks ago from vetenary ireland stating no tail docking and he'd be in bother for it but he would personaly recomend the docking of gundogs tails for practicality and said not to leave it any longer than 3 days old and they would'nt really feel anything goes to show not all vets are money grabbing feck#rs

garyc007

Well I hav a springer bitch with a full tail and it doesn't hinder her one bit. I didn't dock it because she was 9 weeks when I got her so she was too old. I'm not bothered (or she isn't) that its not docked but in saying that if I breed her I will be docking the tails within the first couple of days