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The destruction of Irelands built heritage due to Nationalism/Republicanism

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    #32
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    kolles wrote: »
    Whats this fetish with the "big house"? - you wouldn't have been allowed in there anyway.

    Another opinion or do you know anything about me? :D


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    #33
    kolles
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭kolles


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Another opinion or do you know anything about me? :D


    I can guess. A wanabee.


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    #34
    kolles
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭kolles


    Gee Bag wrote: »
    We've all been watching too much Downton Abbey (or maybe becuse its a history forum)


    Don't watch it - a fantasy. It was always Master-Servants. Period.


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    #35
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    kolles wrote: »
    Don't watch it - a fantasy. It was always Master-Servants. Period.

    Wow, thanks for the clarification.

    All your contributions here have been very insightful.


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    #36
    Curly Judge
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Curly Judge


    kolles wrote: »
    How did they get the land, the houses?

    The same way the Tuatha De Danann got them from the Fir Bolg?


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    #37
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    kolles wrote: »
    Don't watch it - a fantasy. It was always Master-Servants. Period.

    Especially for you. :D

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvKIWjnEPNY


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    #38
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    kolles wrote: »
    Whats this fetish with the "big house"? - you wouldn't have been allowed in there anyway.
    kolles wrote: »
    I can guess. A wanabee.


    Infraction for trolling. If this is your contribution then stop posting here. EDIT> Its repeated many times so I will upgrade this to a ban.
    In General the threads OP seems to have decided where it would go. The destruction of houses should be looked at on a one by one basis and the reasons will never be universal. I don't think its possible to blame one side or the other for there destruction.

    Moderator


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    #39
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    It has never been proven who was responsible for the fire in Duckett's Grove.
    And as for Kilmacurragh House.:rolleyes:
    In 1977 a Mr. T.McKeown was granted caretaker lease of the house in order that he undertook to repair this. The roof went on fire on three different occasions in 1978. In 1980 Mr. McKeown withdrew from the lease.

    The Georgian Society had expressed an interest in restoring the house. Parts of the chimney blocks, slates, wall paneling and fireplaces went missing from the house during this period so the lease terminated in 1983.
    From the Parsons family archive

    And Woodstock House? Occupied by the Black and Tans, and then by Free State troops. Burned down the day after they withdrew and left it unguarded. Things like this happen during war.

    And as for the OP pissing and moaning about sectarianism!? WTF. Who does he think divided the Country along sectarian lines since the 1530's? Dissolution of the monasteries? Penal Laws? Suffrage Rights? The Great hunger of the 1840's? I honestly can't believe that it's necessary to mention any of this. Sectarian 'divide and conquer' has been the chief tactic of British Rule for hundreds of years, and the proclamation of a non-sectarian Republic in 1916 was a real attempt to rise above this division. The fact that the British State and the Catholic Church and it's agents were content to reinforce a sectarian division by partitioning the country has led to generations of misery for everyone on this island. And the OP is crying 'sectarianism'? Give me a break.


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    #40
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,257 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Gee Bag wrote: »
    True, but the building of large volumes of social housing by the government in the 1960's did. The OP specifically referred to vacant big houses in Dublin being demolished to build housing estates. I took this to mean the large estates built around the edges of the then city as opposed to the city centre.
    There was no particular need to demolish them - they could easily have been sub-divided or put to other uses.

    If we take a few examples

    Crumlin http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,712055,731477,6,9

    Blackrock http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,721302,728932,7,9

    Artane http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,719444,738685,6,9

    Finglas http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,712356,738973,6,9

    Either the houses had a minor impact on total land use or the houses were kept in the case of Blackrock.


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    #41
    R.Dub.Fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    Coles wrote: »
    And as for the OP pissing and moaning about sectarianism!? WTF. Who does he think divided the Country along sectarian lines since the 1530's? Dissolution of the monasteries? Penal Laws? Suffrage Rights? The Great hunger of the 1840's? I honestly can't believe that it's necessary to mention any of this. Sectarian 'divide and conquer' has been the chief tactic of British Rule for hundreds of years, and the proclamation of a non-sectarian Republic in 1916 was a real attempt to rise above this division. The fact that the British State and the Catholic Church and it's agents were content to reinforce a sectarian division by partitioning the country has led to generations of misery for everyone on this island. And the OP is crying 'sectarianism'? Give me a break.

    you must be one of the "800 years brigade" that the OP is talking about. he seems so angry about the destruction of property burned and destroyed by Irish people but does not seem to care about the homes villages towns and cities destroyed by the British forces , usualy the Black and Tans and the Auxies.

    i think we would all agree that the wanton destruction of Irelands heritage buildings and landmarks was and is wrong.

    Would it be too much to ask the OP to give his view on the answers to his question so far?


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    #42
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,479 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Ironically,many religious orders took over "Big Houses" and kept them standing.


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    #43
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    Victor wrote: »
    There was no particular need to demolish them - they could easily have been sub-divided or put to other uses.

    If we take a few examples

    Crumlin http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,712055,731477,6,9

    Blackrock http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,721302,728932,7,9

    Artane http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,719444,738685,6,9

    Finglas http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,712356,738973,6,9

    Either the houses had a minor impact on total land use or the houses were kept in the case of Blackrock.

    Most of the big houses around the city would have been sold on with their curtilage (i.e. their surrounding lands). The footprint of the actual big house would have represented a very small proportion of the lands proposed for development.

    Many could probably have been reused for other purposes. However, building community facilities was not a prioroity at the time, a mistake in urban planning that has dogged Dublin, Limerick and Cork ever since.

    I would have no issue with such structures having been reused, however, the OP had suggested restoration which is a very different proposition.


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    #44
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »
    you must be one of the "800 years brigade" that the OP is talking about.
    Indeed. I never thought having an interest in Irish history would be used as some sort of put down. And in the 'History and Heritage' forum too! :confused:


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    #45
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Coles wrote: »
    Indeed. I never thought having an interest in Irish history would be used as some sort of put down. And in the 'History and Heritage' forum too! :confused:

    That depends on what you post and on the sources you quote.


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    #46
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    That depends on what you post and on the sources you quote.

    Or you could just debate the issue.


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    #47
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Coles wrote: »
    And as for Kilmacurragh House.:rolleyes:

    .........And as for the OP pissing and moaning about sectarianism!? WTF. Who does he think divided the Country along sectarian lines since the 1530's? Dissolution of the monasteries? Penal Laws? Suffrage Rights? The Great hunger of the 1840's? I honestly can't believe that it's necessary to mention any of this. Sectarian 'divide and conquer' has been the chief tactic of British Rule for hundreds of years, and the proclamation of a non-sectarian Republic in 1916 was a real attempt to rise above this division. The fact that the British State and the Catholic Church and it's agents were content to reinforce a sectarian division by partitioning the country has led to generations of misery for everyone on this island. And the OP is crying 'sectarianism'? Give me a break.

    The post above is not debate, it is an 'agenda'.

    And as for Kilmacurra House, a putative owner tried to donate it to the Botanic Gardens back in the 1920's and it was refused by the State. Additionally, if you bothered to go there you would see the deplorabe condition it is in under the present (State) ownership, although the gardens are good. (Its Rhododendron Arborium Davidii is a world-class specimen.)

    I'm prepared to debate, but not listen to a rant.


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    #48
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    The post above is not debate, it is an 'agenda'.
    It is the truth. You may not like to hear it, but that doesn't make it any less true.
    And as for Kilmacurra House, a putative owner tried to donate it to the Botanic Gardens back in the 1920's and it was refused by the State. Additionally, if you bothered to go there you would see the deplorabe condition it is in under the present (State) ownership, although the gardens are good. (Its Rhododendron Arborium Davidii is a world-class specimen.)
    The Free State, - on it's knees after the Rising, the War of Independence and the Civil War, divided by partition, suffering massive economic hardship but investing in hugely expensive infrastructural projects such as Ardnacrusha, the Economic War with Britain, the Emergency -, was in no position to take over and manage the Big Houses and their fancy gardens in the face of the expectations of a newly liberated people. I would have been astounded if the State had diverted it's scant resources away from health, education and housing just to take over the private properties of individuals who could no longer afford the upkeep of their houses.

    And where's Kilmacurra? I think you probably mean Kilmacurragh which is managed by the Botanic Gardens/Office of Public Works. So what's the problem? It was never going to be possible (or desirable) to maintain every Big House and it's gardens in the splendid opulence of the previous period.


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    #49
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Coles wrote: »
    It is the truth. You may not like to hear it, but that doesn't make it any less true.

    The Free State, - on it's knees ...................just to take over the private properties of individuals who could no longer afford the upkeep of their houses.

    And where's Kilmacurra? I think you probably mean Kilmacurragh which is managed by the Botanic Gardens/Office of Public Works. So what's the problem? It was never going to be possible (or desirable) to maintain every Big House and it's gardens in the splendid opulence of the previous period.

    For starters your rather petty point, the place can be spelled Kilmacurra or Kilmacurragh and both versions are used by the OPW.
    Secondly you appear to have no idea of the topic in general. Due to the civil unrest in the country during the 1920's, insurance policies did not cover the burning of the Big Houses. Claims for damage during the ‘Troubles’ were investigated by the courts under the terms of the Damage to Property (Compensation) Act, 1923. The awards granted by the courts to the owners were paid for by the taxpayers, via loans raised by the governments of the day. So, in a roundabout way the gob****es who torched the big houses were quite similar to the gombeen developers of today.


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    #50
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    I think it was a necessity - a worthy response to the burning of peoples homes. Destroying the palaces of the loyalists sent a clear, necessary message.

    I find these examples of opulence disgusting, given how theses estates came about and the gross exploration of the Irish natives which went along with it.


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    #51
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,257 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    I think it was a necessity - a worthy response to the burning of peoples homes. Destroying the palaces of the loyalists sent a clear, necessary message.
    What was that message?
    I find these examples of opulence disgusting, given how theses estates came about and the gross exploration of the Irish natives which went along with it.
    But that had typically happened hundreds of years previously and had nothing to do with the contemporary occupants of those properties.


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    #52
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    its sad that the buildings were lost but its part of our struggle for freedom which is probable the greatest moment in our history

    there was hardly ethnic cleansing when there were plenty of protestants in the seanad


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    #53
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    laoch na mona wrote: »
    its sad that the buildings were lost but its part of our struggle for freedom which is probable the greatest moment in our history

    there was hardly ethnic cleansing when there were plenty of protestants in the seanad

    I would call it more class cleansing than ethnic.


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    #54
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I would call it more class cleansing than ethnic.

    probably a fair description as it went on after independence ....sadly
    even worse the valuable records of tenants going back hundreds of years were lost

    it was unfortunately a unnecessary evil


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    #55
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I would call it more class cleansing than ethnic.

    Not to drag the thread off topic as it is the history forum but it could be argued that 20th century Republicanism in Ireland up to the present day has always and to an extent still is far more popular with "working" or "lower" classes than with "middle" or "upper" classes in Ireland (I hesitate differentiating social classes so broadly to be honest but for this point I'll stick with it). The idea of 'class' cleansing rather than ethnic or religious is definately a good discussion point. Although the massive overlap between social class, religion, nationality and ethnicity in Ireland in the 1920's makes this a bit more difficult.

    This is quite different to 18th and 19th century Republicanism which drew a lot of support from the middle and upper classes, at least in the leadership. Nationalism of the constitutional force variety always had a more middle class leaning of course.


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    #56
    jimbo79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88 ✭✭jimbo79


    haulagebasher wrote: »
    From my travels in ireland and visiting heritage sites I cannot help but be very angry and the level of wanton destruction that took place at the hands of the IRA mostly. From my travels I could name off a few: Woodstock house, Kilmacurragh, Mitchelstown castle, castleboro house, Ducketts grove, and many many others. What is quite upsetting is that the majority of these buildings were of no military importance whatsoever and the burnings were done out of sheer vindictivness. They were purely sectarian in nature. Now thoseare the burnings that took place in the 20's which, wrong as they were, it can at least be understood why. But what is far more saddening was similar spate of state sponsored vandalism that took place at the hands of Fianna Fail in the 1950's and 60's. In part I am refering to the demolition of Shanbally Castle near Clogheen, Tipperary in which a perfectly intact, although uninhabited, country mansion was blown up out of the sheer contempt of FF for anything that had anything to do with Protestantism. There were also sereral cases in the Dublin area where Big Houses in readily refurbishable condition were demolished to make way for sprawling council estates. In one case an elegant mansion was knocked only to be replaced by some hideous and obscure "sculpture".Most of this took place against the backdrop of what could only be described as the brutal ethnic cleansing of protestant families from Cork in particular, an event which is conveniently absent from the school history curriculum. Yet if it were protestants who had committed such barbarous acts against catholics, the usual "800 years brigade" would be harping on about it for ever. It often angers me that we live in such an immature and vidictive and hypocritcal state.

    duckets grove would not be too far from me, it would be a great tourist attraction if it had survived along with the towers. it must be remembered that these houses were a symbol of oppression, and usually more than just a symbol, also many catholic families were burned out of their homes my own included


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