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The destruction of Irelands built heritage due to Nationalism/Republicanism

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  • 10-08-2012 2:22pm
    #1
    haulagebasher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭


    From my travels in ireland and visiting heritage sites I cannot help but be very angry and the level of wanton destruction that took place at the hands of the IRA mostly. From my travels I could name off a few: Woodstock house, Kilmacurragh, Mitchelstown castle, castleboro house, Ducketts grove, and many many others. What is quite upsetting is that the majority of these buildings were of no military importance whatsoever and the burnings were done out of sheer vindictivness. They were purely sectarian in nature. Now thoseare the burnings that took place in the 20's which, wrong as they were, it can at least be understood why. But what is far more saddening was similar spate of state sponsored vandalism that took place at the hands of Fianna Fail in the 1950's and 60's. In part I am refering to the demolition of Shanbally Castle near Clogheen, Tipperary in which a perfectly intact, although uninhabited, country mansion was blown up out of the sheer contempt of FF for anything that had anything to do with Protestantism. There were also sereral cases in the Dublin area where Big Houses in readily refurbishable condition were demolished to make way for sprawling council estates. In one case an elegant mansion was knocked only to be replaced by some hideous and obscure "sculpture".Most of this took place against the backdrop of what could only be described as the brutal ethnic cleansing of protestant families from Cork in particular, an event which is conveniently absent from the school history curriculum. Yet if it were protestants who had committed such barbarous acts against catholics, the usual "800 years brigade" would be harping on about it for ever. It often angers me that we live in such an immature and vidictive and hypocritcal state.


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    #2
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,577 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    haulagebasher wrote: »
    What is quite upsetting is that the majority of these buildings were of no military importance whatsoever and the burnings were done out of sheer vindictivness. They were purely sectarian in nature.
    Many people would agree that the destruction of our built heritage was not positive and there were undoubtedly elements of sectarianism involved. However to state in your OP that
    "the burnings were done out of sheer vindictivness" and
    "They were purely sectarian in nature" ignores the reality of the civil war and war of independence.

    It is worthwhile looking at this destruction and indeed there is a thread already that does this. I have reservations about how you see that happening though with your starting premise. It would seem obvious to me that many of the burnings would have had a military objective, whether it was directly dissuading people with British symaphies or indirectly. Most certainly not all done out of "sheer vindictivness". I would also have an interest in the later generations (50's & 60's) when deriliction was a result of many things including rates based on areas of internal covered space. The implication of these rates being that if an owner of an estate house opened the roof and let the house fall in to ruin they would escape the payment of those rates. This may not get discussed if the intention is to focus on something like that already quoted.


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    #3
    donaghs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭donaghs


    haulagebasher wrote: »
    From my travels in ireland and visiting heritage sites I cannot help but be very angry and the level of wanton destruction that took place at the hands of the IRA mostly. From my travels I could name off a few: Woodstock house, Kilmacurragh, Mitchelstown castle, castleboro house, Ducketts grove, and many many others. What is quite upsetting is that the majority of these buildings were of no military importance whatsoever and the burnings were done out of sheer vindictivness. They were purely sectarian in nature. Now thoseare the burnings that took place in the 20's which, wrong as they were, it can at least be understood why. But what is far more saddening was similar spate of state sponsored vandalism that took place at the hands of Fianna Fail in the 1950's and 60's. In part I am refering to the demolition of Shanbally Castle near Clogheen, Tipperary in which a perfectly intact, although uninhabited, country mansion was blown up out of the sheer contempt of FF for anything that had anything to do with Protestantism. There were also sereral cases in the Dublin area where Big Houses in readily refurbishable condition were demolished to make way for sprawling council estates. In one case an elegant mansion was knocked only to be replaced by some hideous and obscure "sculpture".Most of this took place against the backdrop of what could only be described as the brutal ethnic cleansing of protestant families from Cork in particular, an event which is conveniently absent from the school history curriculum. Yet if it were protestants who had committed such barbarous acts against catholics, the usual "800 years brigade" would be harping on about it for ever. It often angers me that we live in such an immature and vidictive and hypocritcal state.

    It's sad and wrong that so much destruction took place in the name of Irish nationalism, but Irish nationalism in itself is not intrinsically destructive. I think it's more likely nowadays to be used to try and conserve history.

    Up to the 1960's minister Kevin Boland was still using nationalism as an excuse to try and destroy Georgian Dublin, which he hated.
    "I can understand that the consortium of belted earls and their ladies and left-wing intellectuals who can afford the time to stand and contemplate in ecstasy the unparalleled man-made beauty of the two corners of Hume Street and St. Stephen's Green may well feel that the amateurish efforts of Mother Nature in the Wicklow Mountains are unworthy of their attention."

    At the time his motivations were put down to mere nationalism, but many since suspect there were also FF-business cliques involved in speculation and dodgy deals.

    In the 1930s there also plans to demolish Merrion Square and all the Georgian buildings. Some of the arguements in favour of this were that the building were old-fashioned and not in the National Character. Does anyone have any more info on the plans for this development? architectural sketches etc?


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    #4
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    moore-hall-intact.bmpThe ‘Big House’ or country mansion of the Anglo-Irish landed class, was a target of republicans throughout the Irish revolution of 1919-23.
    A total of 275 were burned out, blown up or otherwise destroyed between 1920 and 1923. Of these, by far the greatest number, 199, were destroyed, not during the conflict against the British, but in the period of intra-nationalist civil war between 1922-1923.[2]During the confrontation between the British and the IRA in 1919-1921, the Big House was made a target in reprisal for British burning of republicans’ houses. In June 1921, an order to burn loyalist houses in retaliation for British reprisals was issued by IRA GHQ.Republican commander Con Moloney ordered in July 1922, just after the outbreak of Civil War, that Unionist property should be commandeered to accommodate their men and some Big Houses were destroyed or damaged during the opening phase of the war, in which the Anti-Treaty fighters were driven from their fixed position around the country.[7] Nobles’ houses were also used as billets by both Pro-Treaty and Anti-Treaty forces. Another possible explanation for the arson campaign was to drum up popular support in the countryside by attacking and humbling the class who had once been masters of the country.

    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=burning%20of%20houses%20in%20the%201920%2Cs%20ireland&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CE0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theirishstory.com%2F2011%2F06%2F21%2Fthe-big-house-and-the-irish-revolution%2F&ei=AEklUJXfF9SyhAfX-oHoCA&usg=AFQjCNGvc3I2petnzJgq12CxrhyGNkF6tQ You can read lots more here where it gives more insight and history into how and why it happened.


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    #5
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    The targeted "big" houses seem to have been chosen geographically (i.e in areas where there was a serious level of trouble) rather than for reasons of grievance with the local land owners. Here in County Wexford both Wilton Castle and Castleboro were burnt by anti-treaty forces but both sets of landowners were popular in the community. Elsewhere, to the present day, the seats of some of the most oppressive landlords remain intact - Lough Rynn in County Leitrim (now an hotel) was home to Lord Leitrim. In Donegal, Glenveagh Castle home to John Adair of eviction fame survived the 1920s and is now open to the public. I won't name some of the other landlords who have miraculously held on to their houses to the present day despite some very murky activities by their forbears.


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    #6
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    The targeted "big" houses seem to have been chosen geographically (i.e in areas where there was a serious level of trouble) rather than for reasons of grievance with the local land owners.
    JD – perhaps in Wexford, but I would not agree with that on a national basis. In many cases it was random opportunism as a result of the house being isolated, although the Free Staters sometimes ‘garrisoned’ a house. In one case I’ve read about in Kerry the ‘guards’ either changed sides or ran away, and the place was torched. In my view much of it was wanton destruction and theft. Some burnings were examples of settling old scores (evictions) or more frequently as a means of intimidation, in the hope that more land would become available for tenants to obtain. In three out of the four cases I have looked at in Kerry the contents were looted by the locals as the burning got underway – the fourth had nothing much in it.
    I agree that many landlords had seen service with one of the Crown Forces and it was believed that they had given tacit support to the British during the War of Independence. However, legally, such attacks should have ceased with the Truce, but they continued and even escalated during the Civil War. Usually the Anti-Treaty side made no distinction between Catholic or Protestant supporters of the then Irish government. Of those I’ve looked at (local history interest) the attacks had some sectarian overtones, a total ignorance of fact/fiction and frequently it was said the burning was because "it could have been used as a garrison for soldiers" – which in those particular cases was utter nonsense.
    Horace Plunkett did a lot for Ireland, as did Gogarty and Moore; what was the point in burning them out? Gombeenism at its worst, and of course the taxpayer ended up paying for the damage.


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    #7
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    pedroeibar1 - we're singing off the same hymn sheet I think. From my understanding many of the attacks were as you say due to the isolation of the "Big" house (Dunboy Castle on the Beara peninsula), opportunism and purely random attacks on what was perceived as the establishment (Castle Bernard, Bandon). Isolated RIC barracks were targeted in the same way. Bantry House also in West Cork would have been a far more 'legitimate' target but was left well alone. Here, in Enniscorthy, Solsborough House a mile or two outside the town would have been a very 'legitimate' target but only burnt by accident in the 1930s.

    There seem to have been fewer targeted burnings etc. such as the atrocity that occurred at Tynan Abbey in County Armagh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynan_Abbey

    If anything, we are lucky that so few "Big" houses were destroyed and many fine examples still remain intact. Some of the burnt out houses make great romantic ruins on the landscape and are an important reminder of our history.


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    #8
    thecommietommy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    haulagebasher wrote: »
    From my travels in ireland and visiting heritage sites I cannot help but be very angry and the level of wanton destruction that took place at the hands of the IRA mostly...... They were purely sectarian in nature. .......In part I am refering to the demolition of Shanbally Castle near Clogheen, Tipperary in which a perfectly intact, although uninhabited, country mansion was blown up out of the sheer contempt of FF for anything that had anything to do with Protestantism. ........ Yet if it were protestants who had committed such barbarous acts against catholics, the usual "800 years brigade" would be harping on about it for ever. It often angers me that we live in such an immature and vidictive and hypocritcal state.
    :rolleyes: ' Yawn ' .... wannabe funny guy ... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


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    #9
    stoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭stoneill


    if you look at it from a historical perspective, the acts from 1919-1923 or thereabout and the destruction of the Big Houses, although deplorable, barbaric or whatever else you want to call it are the reality of what happened during those times.
    We on the other hand, right now are the observers of the evidence of what is left behind. We can empathise, after all it is very recent history, however we should remain impartial to view the history correctly and not cloud it with taking sides.


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    #10
    kolles
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭kolles


    haulagebasher wrote: »
    From my travels in ireland and visiting heritage sites I cannot help but be very angry and the level of wanton destruction that took place at the hands of the IRA mostly. From my travels I could name off a few: Woodstock house, Kilmacurragh, Mitchelstown castle, castleboro house, Ducketts grove, and many many others. What is quite upsetting is that the majority of these buildings were of no military importance whatsoever and the burnings were done out of sheer vindictivness. They were purely sectarian in nature. Now thoseare the burnings that took place in the 20's which, wrong as they were, it can at least be understood why. But what is far more saddening was similar spate of state sponsored vandalism that took place at the hands of Fianna Fail in the 1950's and 60's. In part I am refering to the demolition of Shanbally Castle near Clogheen, Tipperary in which a perfectly intact, although uninhabited, country mansion was blown up out of the sheer contempt of FF for anything that had anything to do with Protestantism. There were also sereral cases in the Dublin area where Big Houses in readily refurbishable condition were demolished to make way for sprawling council estates. In one case an elegant mansion was knocked only to be replaced by some hideous and obscure "sculpture".Most of this took place against the backdrop of what could only be described as the brutal ethnic cleansing of protestant families from Cork in particular, an event which is conveniently absent from the school history curriculum. Yet if it were protestants who had committed such barbarous acts against catholics, the usual "800 years brigade" would be harping on about it for ever. It often angers me that we live in such an immature and vidictive and hypocritcal state.


    Why don't you give the churches you stole back to the Catholics? Why don't you give the land you stole back too?

    "Church of Ireland"? - Church of Empire, more like.


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    #11
    R.Dub.Fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    i can't add to the anti-Catholic debate or add pictures of burned houses of absentee landlords but i have added a newspaper clipping with pictures of an Irish village burned by British police.


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    #12
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    kolles wrote: »
    Why don't you give the churches you stole back to the Catholics? Why don't you give the land you stole back too?

    "Church of Ireland"? - Church of Empire, more like.

    Ranting and Raving this way....http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1193 :rolleyes:


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    #13
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »
    i can't add to the anti-Catholic debate or add pictures of burned houses of absentee landlords but i have added a newspaper clipping with pictures of an Irish village burned by British police.

    It wasn't just 'absentee' landlords that had their houses burnt.


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    #14
    kolles
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭kolles


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    It wasn't just 'absentee' landlords that had their houses burnt.

    How did they get the land, the houses?


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    #15
    Coles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    While the burning of 'Big Houses' was an understandable action during and after the War of Independence, particularly following from the actions of the British Forces in burning Cork City in 1920, no doubt there was an amount of both cultural and heritage value that was lost. This is a great pity, but thankfully there are enough of these houses remaining so as to remain a lasting memory of just how unjustly the country was run for the benefit of a small elite class.

    With regards the opening contributor lamenting the destruction by the Irish Government of a derelict property in 1957, following years of attempts to find a buyer, I find his remarks somewhat strange. Of course in hindsight the destruction of this property was a shameful act, but I hardly think it's sufficient grounds to lament the very existence of the State. It hardly compares to the fire bombing of Dresden just over decade earlier, does it?

    A bit of perspective please.


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    #16
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Why was burning of the big houses understandable during the war of independence?


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    #17
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    haulagebasher wrote: »
    From my travels in ireland and visiting heritage sites I cannot help but be very angry and the level of wanton destruction that took place at the hands of the IRA mostly.

    I wouldn't consider the burning of big houses as wanton (i.e. without purpose). It was a tactic to undermine British rule. If you want an example of wanton destruction you could have cited the burning/mining of the Four Courts and the loss of the historical records it contained at the outset of the Civil War, or the blowing up of Nelson's Column.
    What is quite upsetting is that the majority of these buildings were of no military importance whatsoever and the burnings were done out of sheer vindictivness. They were purely sectarian in nature.

    Cork city, Tuam, Granard, Balbriggan and many other towns were burnt in reprisals by the Crown along with numerous creameries and private dwellings. None of these buildings were of military importance either. These things have always happened in wars.

    The idea that the War of Independence was a purely sectarian conflict is just daft. There were many Protestants in the IRA and in the broader nationalist movement as there were many Catholics in the RIC, army and administration.
    But what is far more saddening was similar spate of state sponsored vandalism that took place at the hands of Fianna Fail in the 1950's and 60's. In part I am refering to the demolition of Shanbally Castle near Clogheen, Tipperary in which a perfectly intact, although uninhabited, country mansion was blown up out of the sheer contempt of FF for anything that had anything to do with Protestantism.

    In the post-war years there was a world wide architectural trend replace old buildings, slums, bomb sites with shiny, new developments. Ireland was not exempt from this. Effective Heritage protection legislation did not come into place in most European countries until the 1970's.

    Again, attributing the motive for the demolition of buildings solely to sectarianism is in my opinion incorrect. A general dislike/mistrust of all things British explains this attitude better.
    There were also sereral cases in the Dublin area where Big Houses in readily refurbishable condition were demolished to make way for sprawling council estates. In one case an elegant mansion was knocked only to be replaced by some hideous and obscure "sculpture".

    The needs of the few against the needs of the many? I've worked on the restoration of quite a few historic buildings and I can assure you that there is rarely such thing as a readily refurbishable structure. Restoration is an enormously expensive process. The severe housing shortage in Dublin in the 1960's led to the formation of the Dublin Housing Action Committee to agitate for the building of new homes. Are you really suggesting that the poor should have been left living in tenements in order to preserve a handful of large houses for a social elite?
    Most of this took place against the backdrop of what could only be described as the brutal ethnic cleansing of protestant families from Cork in particular, an event which is conveniently absent from the school history curriculum. Yet if it were protestants who had committed such barbarous acts against catholics, the usual "800 years brigade" would be harping on about it for ever.

    This is the part of your post that I disagree with the most. We could argue till the cows come home about whether the Dunmanway killings, etc. were sectarian or not. But there is no way they should be described as ethnic cleansing. That term comes from the Former Yugoslavia (and applied elsewhere) to describe conflicts of enormous scale and complexity that left hundreds of thousands dead and resulted in the complete collapse of society. In a similar vein, it would be wrong to refer to such killings/intimidation as a holocaust.

    I'm not trying to suggest that sectarianism was not a motive for some people, however I do take issue with the idea that it was the sole guiding principle.
    It often angers me that we live in such an immature and vidictive and hypocritcal state.

    Indeed, and it often angers me that so many Irish people seem to think their country is uniquely backward.


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    #18
    kolles
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭kolles


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Why was burning of the big houses understandable during the war of independence?


    Could have something to do with the sympathies of the people in them. After all, they believed themselves superior to the Irish.


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    #19
    R.Dub.Fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    i believe Trim in Co.Meath was also burned by British police. Catholic famlies were burned out of Lisburn in 1920 hundreds left homeless and many murdered in secterian attacks . do these count in the opinion of OP? Attached is photo of Cork after it was burned by British Police


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    #20
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,299 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Why was burning of the big houses understandable during the war of independence?
    Understandable, not acceptable.

    Large landowners were seen as loyalists.
    Gee Bag wrote: »
    Again, attributing the motive for the demolition of buildings solely to sectarianism is in my opinion incorrect. A general dislike/mistrust of all things British explains this attitude better.
    Surely different sides of the same bigoted coin?
    The needs of the few against the needs of the many? I've worked on the restoration of quite a few historic buildings and I can assure you that there is rarely such thing as a readily refurbishable structure. Restoration is an enormously expensive process. The severe housing shortage in Dublin in the 1960's led to the formation of the Dublin Housing Action Committee to agitate for the building of new homes. Are you really suggesting that the poor should have been left living in tenements in order to preserve a handful of large houses for a social elite?
    The destruction of entire streets so they could be used as car parks didn't put a roof over anyone's head.

    This is the part of your post that I disagree with the most. We could argue till the cows come home about whether the Dunmanway killings, etc. were sectarian or not. But there is no way they should be described as ethnic cleansing. That term comes from the Former Yugoslavia (and applied elsewhere) to describe conflicts of enormous scale and complexity that left hundreds of thousands dead and resulted in the complete collapse of society. In a similar vein, it would be wrong to refer to such killings/intimidation as a holocaust.

    Interestingly, there is still a high percentage of non-Catholics in West Cork, some places have a Catholic minority, although this is likely to be influenced by inward migration over the last 30 years.


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    #21
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    kolles wrote: »
    Could have something to do with the sympathies of the people in them. After all, they believed themselves superior to the Irish.

    did they? Do you have something to support this assumption?


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    #22
    kolles
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭kolles


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    did they? Do you have something to support this assumption?

    Weren't they always there rulers, there masters? "Anglo-Irish, Ascendancy" - ring a bell?


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    #23
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    kolles wrote: »
    Weren't they always there rulers, there masters? "Anglo-Irish, Ascendancy" - ring a bell?

    Ever heard of Derrynane House?


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    #24
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    kolles wrote: »
    Weren't they always there rulers, there masters? "Anglo-Irish, Ascendancy" - ring a bell?

    You seem to be under the of illusion that Ireland was sort of Utopian democracy before the arrival of the 'wicked' Brits in 1170.


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    #25
    kolles
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭kolles


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    You seem to be under the of illusion that Ireland was sort of Utopian democracy before the arrival of the 'wicked' Brits in 1170.

    You still seem to want colonial rulers in Ireland. Imperialism cannot return in Europe, or elsewhere.


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    #26
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Funny how some of the ascendancy were raving nationalists but perhaps it was to save their "Big" houses? :D Avondale (CS Parnell); Lissadell (Countess Markievicz); Frascati (Lord Edward Fitzgerald) but it didn't save the house from being knocked; Johnstown Castle (Grogan) and Bagenal Harvey (Bargy Castle)...


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    #27
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,482 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    haulagebasher wrote: »
    destruction that took place at the hands of the IRA mostly. From my travels I could name off a few: Woodstock house, Kilmacurragh, Mitchelstown castle, castleboro house, Ducketts grove, .
    It has never been proven who was responsible for the fire in Duckett's Grove.


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    #28
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    Victor wrote: »
    Surely different sides of the same bigoted coin?

    That's a fair comment.

    I was responding to a specific case raised by the OP where they stated that the dectruction of a building in Tipp was motivated solely by sectarianism. In my experience/opinion a certain level of knee jerk Brit-bashing that is acceptable among Irish people. This is somewhat understandable given the course of Irish History. The classic example is the fella in the Man. Utd. jersey telling you how much he hates the English national team.

    While this may not be P.C. I think it is quite distinct from sectarianism.

    The destruction of entire streets so they could be used as car parks didn't put a roof over anyone's head.

    True, but the building of large volumes of social housing by the government in the 1960's did. The OP specifically referred to vacant big houses in Dublin being demolished to build housing estates. I took this to mean the large estates built around the edges of the then city as opposed to the city centre.

    The demolition of Georgian Dublin in the 60's and 70's can't be justified.
    Interestingly, there is still a high percentage of non-Catholics in West Cork, some places have a Catholic minority, although this is likely to be influenced by inward migration over the last 30 years.

    There was a large exodus of Protestants from the Republic from 1920's onward. I have no doubt that this was influenced by the events of both the War of Independence, the Civil War and the emphasis on Catholicism in the subsequent Free State/Republic. I just found the use of the term 'ethnic cleansing' objectionable. After all the toing and froing here and elsewhere over the Dunmanway killings I would like to read a good account of demographic change in west Co. Cork.


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    #29
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,482 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    The Land commission actually detroyed "Big Houses" too, as did local land buyers.


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    #30
    kolles
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭kolles


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Funny how some of the ascendancy were raving nationalists but perhaps it was to save their "Big" houses? :D Avondale (CS Parnell); Lissadell (Countess Markievicz); Frascati (Lord Edward Fitzgerald) but it didn't save the house from being knocked; Johnstown Castle (Grogan) and Bagenal Harvey (Bargy Castle)...


    Whats this fetish with the "big house"? - you wouldn't have been allowed in there anyway.


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    #31
    Gee Bag
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    kolles wrote: »
    Whats this fetish with the "big house"? - you wouldn't have been allowed in there anyway.

    We've all been watching too much Downton Abbey (or maybe becuse its a history forum)


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