Deferring Gradmed

whatsthecraic

Just wondering is this option available? Got an offer from UCD but thinking of deferring to take a year out before starting into 4 years of exhausting study!Also is there a general consensus that fees will rise over the next few years? If i defer will I face paying more than I would this year?

DeadEight

I was able to defer my UCD offer earlier in the week. It may be too late now though, as you should have deferred before Tuesday.

https://myucd.ucd.ie/programme_info/gen_reg.ezc#Deferring your place
http://www2.cao.ie/handbook/handbook/index5.htm

EngDoc

Just in touch with UCD, the deferral list is full. DeadEight appears to be one of four they allowed to defer...there's been a huge increase in requests apparently.

All signs of a broken system IMO...

lelouchan

EngDoc wrote: »

Just in touch with UCD, the deferral list is full. DeadEight appears to be one of four they allowed to defer...there's been a huge increase in requests apparently.

All signs of a broken system IMO...

I am hoping this will be a slap on the face for UCD and they will actually cop on and do something. Anything. What are you thinking now engdoc? Sorry I'm kinda following your progress cause we are literally going through the same thing (except I clicked the accept button immediately

EngDoc

lelouchan wrote: »

I am hoping this will be a slap on the face for UCD and they will actually cop on and do something. Anything. What are you thinking now engdoc? Sorry I'm kinda following your progress cause we are literally going through the same thing (except I clicked the accept button immediately

I've gone through a few different emotional stages about this! :P When the offers came out, excitement. When I saw how the banks were treating people and the indifference of UCD, anger. Now...more just resignation. The system has just become a bit of a farce. Out of interest, I looked up the grad med courses in the UK/Oz. The level of support they get is amazing, it's kinda embarrassing what it's become over here.

My family was overjoyed with the news. Plenty of offers for people to be guarantors, even help with the fees. It's great to see the support but at my age, as a matter of principle, I just wouldn't accept any of this. They've done enough getting me through my primary degree. When talking to BOI about their loan I was asked for a guarantor, I simply said it's not an option for me.

Now that I can't defer, just going to accept it. UCD said if I tell them before the 29th, there's no problem pulling out. Not really many other options, will spend the next week or so deciding if the whole thing is worth it. I don't want to take the wind out of anyone else's sails...but for each person it will reach the point where they have to say, they're asking too much.

PeadarGalway

How about looking at it a different way. Use the guarantor as motivation. Everytime you don't feel like studying for an OSCE/anatomy practical think about what you failing would mean for that person. Then make sure they never have to experience it.

I had hoped to be totally independent by now. But I'm not. That's life. I'm sure as hell not going to let my notion of where i should be derail my new path.
Thing is though you have to be a 100% sure that this is what you want. It's extremely difficult to make that commitment, and I know that if I wasn't totally sure (believe me, there's been sleepless nights) I would have a very difficult time asking anybody to sign that indemnity form.

It's a tough one, and the banks are milking it at this point, forcing potential doctors to reconsider when instead they should be flicking through netters in anticipation of medschool.

/ramblings

lonelywanderer

Using Guarantor as a motivation myself. I'm 24 and feel bad about relying on parents for it but the way I see it they'll never have to pay any of it off. There is no ****ing way I'm not passing all 4 years of this course :cool:

EngDoc

PeadarGalway wrote: »

How about looking at it a different way. Use the guarantor as motivation. Everytime you don't feel like studying for an OSCE/anatomy practical think about what you failing would mean for that person. Then make sure they never have to experience it.

Thing is though you have to be a 100% sure that this is what you want. It's extremely difficult to make that commitment, and I know that if I wasn't totally sure (believe me, there's been sleepless nights) I would have a very difficult time asking anybody to sign that indemnity form.

I guess this is just one of those cases where people just feel inherently different about something. If having your parents sign on the dotted line for your loan would act as motivation...then I guess there's a silver lining for you. I'd be the exact opposite, it would make me very, very uncomfortable.

It's a sad fact that things don't always go acccording to plan. Look at all the people that have failed exams/1st year in Ul. It's totally possible that after a year or two you honestly decide the course isn't for you. You might get sick and need to drop out. A hundred different things could happen. Now...I'd say the odds of you guys dropping out are very slim. If the worst did happen though, I'd be ok taking the consequences myself. Having it impact parents who have worked all their lives and are coming up to retirement...I would not be ok with that.

A system for grad med where your Uni throws up their hands and says there's nothing they can do about loan arrangements after they've increased your fees needs to be revised. A system where banks say one year...grad med, that's awesome...here's a 100k loan, use what you need, don't worry about getting a guarantor. Then next year say...sorry, we've decided not to offer this loan at all any more or, you can have a loan for the fees but if it goes wrong we'll be going after your parents...is just an unfair system.

Sorry for the rant guys...just needed to vent! :mad:

lelouchan

EngDoc wrote: »

I guess this is just one of those cases where people just feel inherently different about something. If having your parents sign on the dotted line for your loan would act as motivation...then I guess there's a silver lining for you. I'd be the exact opposite, it would make me very, very uncomfortable.

It's a sad fact that things don't always go acccording to plan. Look at all the people that have failed exams/1st year in Ul. It's totally possible that after a year or two you honestly decide the course isn't for you. You might get sick and need to drop out. A hundred different things could happen. Now...I'd say the odds of you guys dropping out are very slim. If the worst did happen though, I'd be ok taking the consequences myself. Having it impact parents who have worked all their lives and are coming up to retirement...I would not be ok with that.

A system for grad med where your Uni throws up their hands and says there's nothing they can do about loan arrangements after they've increased your fees needs to be revised. A system where banks say one year...grad med, that's awesome...here's a 100k loan, use what you need, don't worry about getting a guarantor. Then next year say...sorry, we've decided not to offer this loan at all any more or, you can have a loan for the fees but if it goes wrong we'll be going after your parents...is just an unfair system.

Sorry for the rant guys...just needed to vent! :mad:

Hey I'm with you. I've had my rant at ucd as I CCd everybody I could find on their website. I got a lame reply from some guy in the fees office saying he would forward my email.
A friend of mine is writing an article about the governments plan for postgrads to be given loans by BOI from now on instead of free fees and I told him to include the rad med scheme as what could go wrong when BOI is in charge (or banks for that matter). Would you mind if he could quote what you just said? Sums it all perfectly.

EngDoc

lelouchan wrote: »

Would you mind if he could quote what you just said? Sums it all perfectly.

By all means...I'd have it tattooed on the arse of a few ministers if I had my way!

DeadEight

EngDoc wrote: »

A system for grad med where your Uni throws up their hands and says there's nothing they can do about loan arrangements after they've increased your fees needs to be revised.

I have to disagree with EngDoc on this. A course costs €X. They get a capitation grant from the Government via the HEA. They get the remainder from the student. In the case of GEM, the HEA have reduced the capitation this year, so the student contribution has gone up. I really do not have any issue with that. The Universities have to balance the books.


Traditionally, the Universities have been paid a set amount per student regardless of the cost of educating them. The ability to cross subsidize from the relatively cheap humanities to the expensive sciences, medicine and engineering has hidden the true cost of third level from everybody. There has always been this myth that fees in Irish universities were a small few thousand per year, when in fact the number is over €10,000 for the tuition alone, and the cost of courses like veterinary and medicine is several times that amount. In the case of GEM, the universities are not allowed to cross subsidize the EU students. They use the non-EU students to make some money, but the EU students must pay their way. Without the cross subsidy from the humanities there is a large shortfall of about €15k per year, and that is what we must pay.


The GEM programs were started because the state needs more medical graduates each year to supply the demands of the country and its population. It was expected that the GEM student would fund part of the total fees, on the order of €12k per year. It was also expected that the students would be eligible for the normal assistance available to other students. This is not the case. There is no assistance available to GEM students, and the fee is substantially higher than €12k in all of the institutions offering GEM programs. To cover the fees alone each of us needs ~€60k in the piggy bank.

The government have also decided to stop paying for overtime for Interns and NCHDs. They have not decided to stop them working the overtime. They salary has also been reduced. Young doctors do not have the option to walk out the door when their shift is finished, and they really cannot complain about the situation either. The expectation is that they are treated like sh1t for a few years, but they suck it up and eventually start earning some money. The reduction in take home pay is the reason that the banks are pulling back on the loans, and they cannot offer the €100k loans any more.

Some back of napkin numbers. You need €60k to cover fees. You need another €40k for rent, food and whatever else you can afford on €10k a year. I'm going to be generous and say that through your own means you can get the €40k. That leaves just the €60k in fees to be borrowed.

Intern making €30k takes home €25k after tax. The monthly repayments on a fees only loan (€60k) over 10 years are about €700 per month. That leaves €16.5k take home pay. Having lived on €10k a year for four years you are happy to eat noodles and beans, but anything else is going to be tight.

Road sweeper on minimum wage working same hours (48 per week) takes home €19.5k after tax.

Unless you fancy another bail-out, the banks are not in a position to lend to either of these people. The likelihood of a default is too high. The bank look at those numbers and say that they need somebody else to counter sign the loan application, or they offer you less than the full €60k.


No matter how much you can save, and no matter how much you can borrow, the numbers do not add up. Without some minimum level of government support (the same supports available to any student of bar management or makeup design), the GEM system will probably die.



Obviously a good week for a bit of a rant!

EngDoc

DeadEight wrote: »

I have to disagree with EngDoc on this. A course costs €X. They get a capitation grant from the Government via the HEA. They get the remainder from the student. In the case of GEM, the HEA have reduced the capitation this year, so the student contribution has gone up. I really do not have any issue with that. The Universities have to balance the books.

I wasn't blaming the Universities specifically, probably should have been clearer. When I refer to a system that's failing, I was thinking of all the different parties involved, the universites/HEA/banks/CAO etc. I can understand their need to balance the books, I wouldn't expect them to do anything diffferent.

Of course, even when they're forced to increase their fees, I don't see why they can't do a slightly better job in representing their students when it comes to the banks. The amount of confusion related to the student loans is just silly IMO. Not sure why they can't just sit down for an hour with the different banks, confirm the offers, bang it in a pdf document and stick it on the Uni website.

I know it's not technically their problem...but it would go a long way in helping their prospective students. The UCD website still says loans are available from AIB/UB:

http://www.ucd.ie/medicine/undergraduateprogrammes/gemloansinformation/

shaz84

Does anyone know if it is possible to defer progression from one year to another due to financial difficulties? Ie take a year out between say year 3 and year 4.

Im just thinking in advance, should the assumptions I have made about availability of work not being true a couple of years down the line.

Moji70

Shaz

Don't even think about it. This is the worst idea IMO. You will never catch up and you would lose your cohort, and never get mixed thoroughly with new cohort.

lelouchan

DeadEight wrote: »

EngDoc wrote: »

A system for grad med where your Uni throws up their hands and says there's nothing they can do about loan arrangements after they've increased your fees needs to be revised.

I have to disagree with EngDoc on this. A course costs €X. They get a capitation grant from the Government via the HEA. They get the remainder from the student. In the case of GEM, the HEA have reduced the capitation this year, so the student contribution has gone up. I really do not have any issue with that. The Universities have to balance

Engdoc's point isn't about the fact we have to pay fees but the fact that universities have done nothing in aiding the acquisition for a loan. This is particularly telling for uk students. Where do they expect them to get the money from?
Ul in my mind is an example of what we would like, a university that not only offers scholarships but also goes after ulster bank to ensure their students get a loan.
The frustration comes from the fact that ucd have done literally nothing. They updated their fees page for the year and didn't once tOuch the gem loans page which is unbelievably dated.
The banks I don't expect much from to be honest, they are banks, it's what they do.
But the government in my opinion also has a lot to answer for knowing fully well that in the same year they have reduced the grant AND aib has pulled out. The system has truly failed in my opinion.

Moji70

UB in UL branch does not offer loans to UK applicants. And UL has done nothing about it.
UL offer scholarships , but it is granted after the course starts. So you have to pay your tuition fees and pay your accommodation fees ( and move to Ireland for us) to see if we are granted scholarship or not. That is not wise move and does not help anybody. In fairness UL has done nothing compare to other unis to help us.

DeadEight

I really do not think the Universities have a role to play in getting bank loans for students. They have nothing on which to negotiate in any case. I would agree that a basic website for all GEM programs giving information on contact details would be some help, but I would prefer the Universities worked on getting Government to support these programs with some degree of fairness, rather than getting directly involved with the banks. If the Government treat the GEP students fairly, then the loans become less of an issue.

The government will pay fees and provide grant assistance to all students of 4 year Hotel Management degrees, but provide only partial fees and no financial assistance to GEP students. I am not saying that the hotel managers are not a vital aspect of the national infrastructure, but they were not on the manifestos of both government parties. The implementation of the Fottrell Report was, and the shortage of medical graduates is already a serious problem. In my mind it makes sense to support GEP students like any other undergraduate. Maybe with some encouragement they will be less likely to give the state the finger when they graduate and take their skills abroad.

lelouchan

DeadEight wrote: »

I really do not think the Universities have a role to play in getting bank loans for students. They have nothing on which to negotiate in any case. I would agree that a basic website for all GEM programs giving information on contact details would be some help, but I would prefer the Universities worked on getting Government to support these programs with some degree of fairness, rather than getting directly involved with the banks. If the Government treat the GEP students fairly, then the loans become less of an issue.
.

Oh yeah the government actually helping would be ideal. But after reading ruairi quinn's reply to the GEM situation which went along the lines of "oh sad situation for sure, but it's not the government's fault", i do turn to the unis. Every party which has a part to play says its not their fault...pfft.

I do think universities do have a role to play. Unless the message the university would like to pass is we only want the elite in GEM, they should have figured that most people cannot afford their fees and help us get loans/grants. In my mind, the university has a better position to lobby for us with the banks than we do, so they should. Because the banks are our last option. No banks no Gem students.
Obviously they could also as you said work on the government but when a govt sees fit to reduce the grant with no assistance, you know the government is not thinking about GEM students.

As an aside, we own the banks now technically, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. They should be bending over backwards for us

Librium

Amazing amount of people looking for something for free.

ciara84

lelouchan wrote: »

Oh yeah the government actually helping would be ideal. But after reading ruairi quinn's reply to the GEM situation which went along the lines of "oh sad situation for sure, but it's not the government's fault", i do turn to the unis. Every party which has a part to play says its not their fault...pfft.

I do think universities do have a role to play. Unless the message the university would like to pass is we only want the elite in GEM, they should have figured that most people cannot afford their fees and help us get loans/grants. In my mind, the university has a better position to lobby for us with the banks than we do, so they should. Because the banks are our last option. No banks no Gem students.
Obviously they could also as you said work on the government but when a govt sees fit to reduce the grant with no assistance, you know the government is not thinking about GEM students.

As an aside, we own the banks now technically, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. They should be bending over backwards for us

capitalism working as intended.

DeadEight

lelouchan wrote: »

As an aside, we own the banks now technically, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. They should be bending over backwards for us

The banks lending silly money to people who are not able to repay is the reason for the financial **** hole we're in. Offering €100k loans, unsecured, to students whose earning potential is dropping rapidly is a really bad idea.

I would advocate a complete overhaul of the funding model for third level in Ireland, but I am probably in the minority who say that students should pay a lot more for their education, but be able to borrow from a state funded student loan company. That is not going to happen soon, and for our situation a far simpler approach should be taken.

If GEM students are still being supported by their wealthy parents then they should pay. This is what happens right now, so no change is needed. The remainder, the independent students, should be treated like other undergraduate students, and be eligible for standard government financial supports. This would reduce the financial burden on the student. Once the burden is reduced GEM students can avail of loans from the banks just like normal students.

Jammyc

Librium wrote: »

Amazing amount of people looking for something for free.

Total crap. In any letters I've sent to ministers etc., I've also stressed this point.

We're not looking for anything for free. What we're looking for is to be given a fair chance to learn and pay back for our learning.

eire_245

Librium wrote: »

Amazing amount of people looking for something for free.

but everyone loves free stuff! so how many people are actually deferring?

cliona88

eire_245 wrote: »

but everyone loves free stuff! so how many people are actually deferring?

Someone should make a poll. I don't know how to

SpiderP

I was in with AIB sorting out the continuation of my loan for next year and ended up chatting with the branch manager about the whole situation and her explanation about the loans being withdrawn was quite interesting.

She said (and I've no reason not to believe her) that the main reason for the loan being pulled was because AIB are under increasing scrutiny from the financial regulator (for obvious reasons) and they do not like the terms of a loan whereby you offer someone such a large sum of cash and defer payments for four years with no guarantor. They had fought "tooth and nail" for the past number of years to continue to be able to provide the loan but that this year they couldn't get the regulator's approval.

I'm sure it's not as simple as that but interesting to note that it's not solely down to decisions made by the banks themselves.

crazy dude

DeadEight wrote: »

I really do not think the Universities have a role to play in getting bank loans for students..

I guess the uni's would be crazy not to get involved with the banks cos if they didn't their course fees for EU students would never be paid and they'd have to lower them. Bit like the cosy cartel of auctioners, banks, solicitors we all grew to love on the road to owning a pyrite-house an hours drive from Dublin in the Quel-Tick Tiger years;)

shaz84

DeadEight wrote: »

I really do not think the Universities have a role to play in getting bank loans for students.

DeadEight. You do make some good points in your posts, however I could not disagree with you more on this point. A university maybe a teaching institution, but they are a business nonetheless. One of their revenue streams are students paying fees in return for their services, teaching medicine in this case.

They are part of a larger ecosystem and if they want this particular revenue stream (grad med) to survive, it is prudent for them to lobby the banks to continue providing funding for their 'customer base', if the only funding mechanism for a proportion of their customers is being withdrawn (that is on the assumption that this would negatively affecting their P&L.)

It would therefore make commercial sense for the universities to work to negotiate a deal for students if a bank loan is hard to come by, unless they feel they are making so much money from other channels such as US / non EU students that they don't need to go to the effort. Back to my previous point about a university being a commercial organisation...

ciara84

shaz84 wrote: »

they are a business nonetheless.

In Ireland universities are not businesses, they're non profit institutions run by the government, bar some private colleges.

lelouchan

ciara84 wrote: »

shaz84 wrote: »

they are a business nonetheless.

In Ireland universities are not businesses, they're non profit institutions run by the government, bar some private colleges.

Yup. But since the recession it's become more like a business. How best to cut costs etc. when really they should be looking at some of the salaries being paid, just saying. (but its over the 100k figure). I was trying to calculate how much they get from one class of GEM students and ucd get just from the eu students over a million. Not sure how many non eu students so i couldnt calculare it. But In a year. Even though in the last two years, the GEM students are integrated into the 5 year course.

And with literally no help received from ucd regarding the loan situation, I think a business is also an apt description, where ucd is concerned anyway.

boynesider

Well I've just received a round 1 offer for UCD on a score of 57. If I was offered this about 3 months ago I would have accepted it in a second but for a number of reasons I now have a big decision to make. My problem is simply finance. My family aren't well off and due to the loan situation, I know that if i were to go straight into the course this year I would be taking a massive risk.

The ideal scenario for me would be to defer the place for a year, take the job I have lined up, and save every red cent that comes my way in the next 12 months.

However i have been told that deferrals for GradMed in UCD are extremely hard to get. Can anyone shed some light on this please? Is it even worth my while trying to get one? I think my reason is pretty valid and honest, but I'm sure they've heard it a hundred times before and probably wouldn't bat an eyelid at it.

Bjarne3000

Hello, what was that you mentioned about the amount of people failing the first year? of UI