Harrods gender-neutral toy department

Kooli

How cool is this?

http://www.care2.com/causes/first-gender-neutral-toy-department-opens-at-harrods.html

Harrods new toy department will group toys by theme rather than by the traditional 'girls vs boys' sections. When I read the article (it's short), I just felt myself breathe a sigh of relief. The simplicity of it! I can't see a single downside to this.

I hope other toy shops will follow suit.

Dolbert

This is brilliant. I wrote about the toy issue before when I realised that Lego was being marketed as a boy's toy, as though any toy that isn't pink and/ or sparkly is by default 'not for girls'.

awec

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woodchuck

I'm not sure I see the point of it to be honest... it just seems like a marketing ploy to appeal to the PC brigade.

You'll still get parents who don't want their son playing with a barbie or their little girl playing with a GI joe.

Dolbert

awec wrote: »

What's so special about it?

What's wrong with boy section and girl sections in toy shops?

What's wrong with it is that if you look at the girl's aisle, it's nothing but vapid glittering pink crap. Which is fine if you're the type of little girl who enjoys that stuff. What's not fine is that being the only option marketed to girls.

Why should:
Barbie = girl's toy
GI Joe = boy's toy
Lego, meccano, K'nex = boy's toy?

Silly me, I would have thought those would be gender neutral. I'm just grateful that my parents never 'set me straight' on that score.

I'll just leave this here.

awec

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krudler

I used to work in a toy shop and lego had its own aisle, it was neither boy nor girl orientated. Its mroe to do with merchandising really, most people dont walk into a toy shop and go to the Barbie aisle looking for an Action Man figure. stuff like lego and that is usually separate. There's loads of lego that "girl" orientated but thats probably an issue as well, can't win really, make it for things boys generally like such as trucks and spaceships and its a boys toy, try to make stuff girls tend to like and its pandering to stereotypes and making things pink.

Do girls like barbies because they're told to? or do toy manufacturers make girl centric toys because they know thats generally what girls like? my sister used to have stuff like my little pony and cabbage patch dolls and the like but still played with my lego and had some of her own.

Its more down to parents than toy shops to get kids to play with other types of toys.

Kooli

awec wrote: »

What's so special about it?

What's wrong with boy section and girl sections in toy shops?

I do believe that segregation of toys is wrong, but even if I didn't, I fail to see any actual problem with doing it this way?

I can't think of any advantage of having segregated sections, or why people would prefer it that way rather than the argument of 'that's the way it is'.

I can understand why people would prefer non-segregated toy shops. I can understand people not really caring one way or the other. I can't understand people thinking that gender segregation is the better way.

Ella

awec wrote: »

I also fear that we are only a step away from the kids themselves being used. "Oh look at me, I have a son and I encouraged him to play with a doll and pram, aren't I so forward thinking".

That reminds me of when my little bro was 3 (he's 21 now)he wanted a pram for Christmas. Santa got him a digger instead

awec

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woodchuck

Kooli wrote: »

I do believe that segregation of toys is wrong, but even if I didn't, I fail to see any actual problem with doing it this way?

I don't think there's anything really 'wrong' with it... but it does seem a little disorganised! If you walk into a toyshop to buy a child a birthday/christmas present, it just makes things easier to have a section with things that girls typically like, a section for things that boys typically like and a neutral section for things that both genders typically like (eg lego).

While there's nothing wrong with boys liking girls toys and girls liking boys toys, it also shouldn't be wrong for girls to like girls toys and boys to like boys toys! It's up to the parents to pay attention to their child and see what toys appeal to them. No harm in starting in the girls section for a girl and then if there's nothing there she likes move onto the neutral or boys section! I just think it generally makes shopping more efficient. Boys and girls are different... why do we pretend they're not!?

Morag

Talk about reactionary.
It is not about stopping girls playing with dolls or boys with cars.
It is about letting kids choose what they want while removing a layer visual demarcation
which says certain toys are for one gender and they are doing something wrong by looking to play with them.

Kooli

awec wrote: »

Easier to find what you are looking for, easier to market the products.

Shops can decorate and lay out their boy sections to intrigue and capture the attention of boys. Same for young girls.

Same as clothes shops. Same as any shop really - things are laid out using common sense. This is why in your local supermarket you won't find the washing up liquid on the same shelf as the bread.

Boys and girls are different - that's reality. I don't see why shops should have it dictated that they can't market their products to certain types of customer

It would still be laid out in a way that makes sense. I'm not sure why you think it would suddenly become an arbitrary mish-mash of unrelated stuff beside each other? Would it really be that confusing to have a whole aisle dedicated to all the car/truck/train toys rather than separating the girly cars and trains from the boy cars and trains?

But I think your idea that boys and girls are totally different and that's a 'fact' is where many would disagree. In fact I'd hazard that it's a 'fact' that while many boys and girls prefer the toys of their gender (and will have no problems finding them in the new system), many other boys and girls would prefer the toys generally designed for the other gender, and this system would make that choice much easier for them. Where's the harm?

Lyaiera

awec wrote: »

Easier to find what you are looking for, easier to market the products.

Shops can decorate and lay out their boy sections to intrigue and capture the attention of boys. Same for young girls.

Same as clothes shops. Same as any shop really - things are laid out using common sense. This is why in your local supermarket you won't find the washing up liquid on the same shelf as the bread.

Boys and girls are different - that's reality. I don't see why shops should have it dictated that they can't market their products to certain types of customer

Who is dictating this? You're up in arms that a shop can't market toys the way they want because... The shop is marketing the toys the way they want?

From a marketing perspective it sounds like a nice way to see whether the traditional gender roles have been top down or bottom up. Maybe there'll be a whole new market open up for some toys and the crappier toys get left behind. This isn't equality in gender roles, it's free-market capitalism for the toy industry. No longer can toy manufacturers rely on monopolising boys or girls attentions with a particular way of thinking, they have to face the realities that kids might have some opportunity to play with what they want to. That's a good thing all around.

Or are you saying you want marketers dictating to children what they should be playing with? Because I'd advise you to go watch some Bill Hicks to get the low down on what a lot of people think of the marketing industry.

awec

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Princess Peach

This is an interesting one!

I mean I understand where people say boys are girls are different so should have different toy aisles, but why is that? I grew up playing with dolls and kitchens and pretend babies, but did I really choose them or were they chosen for me? Children are so mold-able, give a young girl dinosaurs and cars and she will have fun with that. I did play with cars and GI Joe cause I had brothers, but they were never bought for me.

And if kids are told pink is for girls and blue is for boys, and this is how they decorate the toy shops, of course children will be drawn to the colour they are told to associate with themselves. And then you get the whole, "Ew that's a toy for boys, I don't want it!"

So I think just removing these visual barriers allows children to explore a bit more, and stop them making the segregation in their minds.

Dolbert

Sharrow wrote: »

Talk about reactionary.
It is not about stopping girls playing with dolls or boys with cars.
It is about letting kids choose what they want while removing a layer visual demarcation
which says certain toys are for one gender and they are doing something wrong by looking to play with them.

This, exactly. I was a little girl who was bored to tears by pink, fluffy dross. Many of my friends loved that stuff, but not me. What exactly is so wrong with letting kids feel less boxed in by their gender? The 'PC Brigade' (sigh) has nothing to do with it.

g'em

woodchuck wrote: »

Boys and girls are different... why do we pretend they're not!?

I agree... but I'd like my (future) kids to decide which differences suit them and which ones don't, not have those assumptions dictated to them. That's all this about, freedom to decide without feeling abnormal for not adhering to what's expected of being a boy or a girl.

awec

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Stheno

awec wrote: »

Easier to find what you are looking for, easier to market the products.

Shops can decorate and lay out their boy sections to intrigue and capture the attention of boys. Same for young girls.

When I was a kid, I loved meccano and lego and puzzles.

Traditional "boy toys" so to speak but I'm female and wanted them. If they'd been in the "boys" section I mightn't have seen them.

Having them laid out in a non gender specific way makes them easier to find.

Same when I went shopping with a nephew and he wanted computer games, they were in the computer games aisle, not the "boys" aisle of the store I went to?

Kooli

awec wrote: »

If I want to buy my daughter a doll I want to be able to go into the shop, go to the girls section and go to the dolls section. What's wrong with that??

This way, you can just go to the shop, and then go straight to the dolls section! One less step!

awec

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Lyaiera

awec wrote: »

I don't think "many" would disagree actually. I think the brunt of disagreement would come from the usual PC sections.

Boys and girls are different. I'd wager that the number of boys who enjoy girls toys and the number of girls who enjoy boys toys is a small minority.

We should stop pretending otherwise.

Yes, we should stop pretending that society has determined that some perfectly normal things are only for one gender, and some perfectly normal things are only for the other gender. Instead of telling a two year old what they should play with why not let the two year old play with what they want?

I don't want some multinational corporation deciding what my child gets to play with because it's easier for them to market it that way.

Dolbert

awec wrote: »

If I want to buy my daughter a doll I want to be able to go into the shop, go to the girls section and go to the dolls section. What's wrong with that??

You can still buy her a doll easily, I don't see the issue

g'em

awec wrote: »

Young boys and girls have survived buying toys in shops for years and years, why is there a sudden need to change what isn't broken?!

There's people on this thread who are trying to explain that it *is* broken, that's part of the problem.

Princess Peach

awec wrote: »

I don't think "many" would disagree actually. I think the brunt of disagreement would come from the usual PC sections.

Boys and girls are different. I'd wager that the number of boys who enjoy girls toys and the number of girls who enjoy boys toys is a small minority.

We should stop pretending otherwise.

See I think the enjoying the other gender's toys is a society thing though. My mam works in am all boys pre-school and they have loads of toys there, and I've often seen the 3 year old boys playing with the prams and the babies and the dolls. They have a play kitchen too.

I think its really more as the children get older and they learn what toys they are "supposed" to like that they start to feel a bit self conscious of playing with something thats "meant for girls".

woodchuck

g'em wrote: »

I agree... but I'd like my (future) kids to decide which differences suit them and which ones don't, not have those assumptions dictated to them. That's all this about, freedom to decide without feeling abnormal for not adhering to what's expected of being a boy or a girl.

Agreed, but I think the parents dictate this a hell of a lot more than the toyshops! It's up to the parents to teach their children what is 'acceptable' and what's not. If they don't let their girls into the 'boys' section then shame on them. If a little girl sees a monster truck and thinks it's awesome, she's not going to let some blue paint on the walls keep her away... it'll much more likely be the parents veering her towards the barbie dolls instead.

Having said all that, I think if this breaks the gender stereotypes for the parents then maybe it's a good thing.

But I think in terms of general organisation of the shop it makes more sense to keep things the way we currently have it.

Dolbert

Princess Peach wrote: »

See I think the enjoying the other gender's toys is a society thing though. My mam works in am all boys pre-school and they have loads of toys there, and I've often seen the 3 year old boys playing with the prams and the babies and the dolls. They have a play kitchen too.

I think its really more as the children get older and they learn what toys they are "supposed" to like that they start to feel a bit self conscious of playing with something thats "meant for girls".

A friend of mine used to work in a creche, and said often the boys liked to play with the tea sets/ dolls and the girls often liked to play with cars etc. Some of these parents used to go ballistic if their child wasn't playing with the 'right' toy, and used to forbid the creche workers to give them the 'wrong' ones. Something was confusing those kids, and it sure as hell wasn't the toys.

Stheno

Princess Peach wrote: »

This is an interesting one!

I mean I understand where people say boys are girls are different so should have different toy aisles, but why is that? I grew up playing with dolls and kitchens and pretend babies, but did I really choose them or were they chosen for me? Children are so mold-able, give a young girl dinosaurs and cars and she will have fun with that. I did play with cars and GI Joe cause I had brothers, but they were never bought for me.

And if kids are told pink is for girls and blue is for boys, and this is how they decorate the toy shops, of course children will be drawn to the colour they are told to associate with themselves. And then you get the whole, "Ew that's a toy for boys, I don't want it!"

So I think just removing these visual barriers allows children to explore a bit more, and stop them making the segregation in their minds.

Princess Peach wrote: »

See I think the enjoying the other gender's toys is a society thing though. My mam works in am all boys pre-school and they have loads of toys there, and I've often seen the 3 year old boys playing with the prams and the babies and the dolls. They have a play kitchen too.

I think its really more as the children get older and they learn what toys they are "supposed" to like that they start to feel a bit self conscious of playing with something thats "meant for girls".

This is it for me, I'd one of those toy garages with loads of cars as a kid and never knew it was a boys toy, dunno how I ended up with it, but it gave me hours of fun!

I think that you have to accept that having access to non gender specific toys can change the mindset of children to consider there options, look at the coderdogos out there now to encourage kids to get into learning how to do IT coding, great way to break down a traditional barrier that females don't work in IT?

good christ, it's a shop
if they want to change their layout let them go ahead and see how well it works
i don't get up in arms about people not being allowed to buy milk anymore just because they changed the location of it in my local tesco

i also haven't gotten so confused i stopped being able to buy milk just because they rearranged it... they do still have signs around the place

if it means kids are less wary of trying out different toys they always wanted, great
if it doesnt make a difference so what, it was a shop layout

Morag

awec wrote: »

I have a feeling that if a young boy is happy to walk around playing with a doll (and fair play to him if so) then he isn't going to feel uncomfortable going to pick it up in the girls section in the shop.

The same with a young girl playing with boys toys.

They aren't doing anything wrong, but they are in the minority. Lets stop pretending otherwise.

Young boys and girls have survived buying toys in shops for years and years, why is there a sudden need to change what isn't broken?!

It's not just the kids, it's the parents and other adults who tell kids that they can't have or shouldn't play with toys which they consider to be for the other gender. Kids who get steered away from things they find interesting, which really should not be segregated by gender.

awec

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awec

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Kooli

woodchuck wrote: »

If they don't let their girls into the 'boys' section then shame on them. If a little girl sees a monster truck and thinks it's awesome, she's not going to let some blue paint on the walls keep her away... it'll much more likely be the parents veering her towards the barbie dolls instead.

Having said all that, I think if this breaks the gender stereotypes for the parents then maybe it's a good thing.

But I think in terms of general organisation of the shop it makes more sense to keep things the way we currently have it.

It only makes sense because it's what we're used to.
When we get used to it, I'm sure it will make so much more sense to divide toys by the type of toy rather than the target gender.

Also, even if a mother doesn't 'let' her daughter get a monster truck, the fact remains that a little girl might not even realise a monster truck is an option for her because she doesn't really see it in the toy shop (unless the mother deliberately brings her to the boy section).

The way I see it, if this was echoed in all toy shops:

Benefits

- kids who prefer toys designed for the other gender (we don't know yet if that's a small minority, large minority or majority) will find it easier to access these toys. Girls will have greater access to toys that develop technical and engineering skills and encourage building, action and problem-solving. Boys will have greater access to toys that develop nurturing, caregiving and artistic skills. (note I say 'greater' access, before people start nitpicking that 'some' boys/girls toys do develop these skills).
Boys and girls that naturally gravitate towards toys traditional for their own gender can still do so.

- parents and other adults who buy for kids may stop thinking along strict gender-lines with the purchase of toys and games

- who knows, miracle of miracles, maybe the toy developers will follow suit and stop marketing toys SO specifically to one gender (which can alienate the other gender for no reason as the toy itself might be equally enjoyable to both)


The downside

- some people may take a while to get used to it

- ??? (any other downsides?)

awec

awec wrote: »

So if I encourage my son to play football, am I wrong there?

Am I imposing gender stereotypes on him? If I spend 1 hour playing football with him, should I encourage him to play with a supposed girls toy for an hour just to balance it out? Do my bit to eradicate these supposed gender issues that have plagued society for all these years, so that hopefully future generations don't experience what we all went through?

Are you not reading the post or what? She said if he finds playing with prams interesting, some parents say NO you cant play with prams they are NOT for boys

awec wrote: »

Issues are being created where none exist.

Yeah, and not by harrods

shops change layouts all the time
go to tesco and tell them they're making issues out of nothing because they've decided that people will impulse buy xyz instead of abc

what does it matter if harrods want to try a different layout they think will work better?

Acoshla

I once had a guy freak out in a kids shop I worked in because his son was playing with a purple toy. I can't remember what the toy was but it was something wooden, a little horse or caterpillar or something, but the Dad said he couldn't play with purple toys because "we know what that does to little boys". Obviously referring to the well known connection between purple toys and homsexuality :rolleyes:

I think it's great and about time, when I was in Harrods a while back I was actually disappointed that such a big shop with so much of everything as its disposal - money, choice, market research, etc - had basically a pink sparkly girly area and a blue cars and monsters area.

Kooli

awec wrote: »

So if I encourage my son to play football, am I wrong there?

Am I imposing gender stereotypes on him? If I spend 1 hour playing football with him, should I encourage him to play with a supposed girls toy for an hour just to balance it out? Do my bit to eradicate these supposed gender issues that have plagued society for all these years, so that hopefully future generations don't experience what we all went through?

If you encourage only your son, but not your daughter. Then yes, I would call that 'wrong'. Although wrong is probably the wrong word, as I'd say it's fairly common. But definitely limiting.

Dolbert

awec wrote: »

It's not broken.

There are millions and millions of people in Ireland, how many of them do you think, if asked, felt that their childhood was affected because toy shops had boy and girl sections.

Posters on this very thread are telling you exactly why they think that it is broken.

awec wrote:

And how many do you think would stare at you with a sense of bemusement if you asked them that question?

Issues are being created where none exist.

According to you. Why is the status quo so important to you? If everyone had the 'if it ain't broke' mentality then nothing would ever progress!

Ella

bluewolf wrote: »

Are you not reading the post or what? She said if he finds playing with prams interesting, some parents say NO you cant play with prams they are NOT for boys

Or that the kid will get picked on if he heads out to his little buddies with a pram.

Ella Bella

Ella Bella wrote: »

Or that the kid will get picked on if he heads out to his little buddies with a pram.

or if he heads out with glasses
and why would the buddies pick on him? because they learned it from their parents that prams are for girls?

awec

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g'em

awec wrote: »

Issues are being created where none exist.

Ok, you don't see any. I honestly don't know if there is one, but I wouldn't be as resistant to the change as you are. You seem adamant that nothing needs changing, I can see the reasoning behind it even without being sure if there's a 'problem'.

I personally don't like the 'if it ain't broke...' attitude. Where's the room for development there? If gender-neutral stores become the norm and boys and girls gravitate towards the traditional gender toys, then what harm? Is there going to be someone at the end of it all with a big "I told you so" sign to point it out?

And since when has accomodating a minority been a bad thing? Isn't that what equality is all about?

Ella

bluewolf wrote: »

or if he heads out with glasses
and why would the buddies pick on him? because they learned it from their parents that prams are for girls?

No Bluey, it's not just the parents. It's all over your TV. You think that advertising for all kids toys should be non gender related now?

awec

awec wrote: »

You are right, I probably shouldn't have quoted the post as it wasn't quite a direct reply to that specific one.

My point is:

1. Boys and girls are different
2. Boys and girls do like different things
3. Boys playing with prams and girls playing with boy toys is not the norm (I am not saying they are abnormal - they are just in the minority)
4. Some people try to pretend this isn't the case
5. Why are we changing what clearly isn't broken and has never been broken to accomodate the small minority?

"We" are not changing anything. One shop has decided a different layout of toys will sell better and attract more customers. Just the same as the rest of them do.

As for your resistance to any kind of change or development, I'm really boggling

Morgase

This is great news. It seems to me that toys were becoming far more gender-segregated in the past than they had been, even since my day, and it's all down to marketing imo. Why have a parent buy one set of Lego for the kids when they could be convinced to buy one set of normal Lego for the boys, and a pink set for the girls?

Kooli

awec wrote: »

You are right, I probably shouldn't have quoted the post as it wasn't quite a direct reply to that specific one.

My point is:

1. Boys and girls are different
2. Boys and girls do like different things
3. Boys playing with prams and girls playing with boy toys is not the norm (I am not saying they are abnormal - they are just in the minority)
4. Some people try to pretend this isn't the case
5. Why are we changing what clearly isn't broken and has never been broken to accomodate the small minority?

We don't know for sure that it's a small minority. I doubt it is (and remember we're not just talking about kids who will only play with toys for the other gender, this also includes kids who like gender-typical toys but ALSO like toys for the other gender. I think that could be LOADS of kids).

But let's say for the sake of argument that it is true that it's a small minority. I still think that generally, it's worth accommodating a minority if the current system makes it difficult for that minority, and the new system will makes things better for them, and the new system will not have a negative impact on the majority. Which I think is the case here.

Ella Bella

Ella Bella wrote: »

No Bluey, it's not just the parents. It's all over your TV. You think that advertising for all kids toys should be non gender related now?

I think if a little boy decides he wants to play with a pram, off he goes
if he wants to play with a football, off he goes

Acoshla

awec wrote: »

3. Boys playing with prams and girls playing with boy toys is not the norm (I am not saying they are abnormal - they are just in the minority)

And why is that, or why should that be the way it is? Toys should be chosen depending on a child's own interests and likes and dislikes, not what girls should play with and what boys should play with, as determined by a society that has made men so afraid of showing their emotions because "it's not what real men do".

awec

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Princess Peach

awec wrote: »

You are right, I probably shouldn't have quoted the post as it wasn't quite a direct reply to that specific one.

My point is:

1. Boys and girls are different
2. Boys and girls do like different things
3. Boys playing with prams and girls playing with boy toys is not the norm (I am not saying they are abnormal - they are just in the minority)
4. Some people try to pretend this isn't the case
5. Why are we changing what clearly isn't broken and has never been broken to accomodate the small minority?

Just because something is the norm, doesn't make it right or the most beneficial situation for all.

awec

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