Femme de la rue: sexism in the streets of Brussels

kreuzberg09

Just wondering what peoples thoughts were on this video about sexist comments on the streets on Brussels

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvf6KZ-Kr3g

That documentary is dead on. That's exactly what it's like for women in some parts of Brussels. Stray out of the centre or the nice areas where the expats live and that's the reality. You walk down the street and all the men turn around, whistle, make comments. To be honest, it was more annoying than anything else and if I ignored them, that was that, but it IS depressing.

The woman in the docu is right. This didn't happen 30 years ago. It's not a European thing. It's not pleasant to know what these men are thinking when they look at you and to see how little respect they have for women. The condescending attitude she experienced is what you get when you question them or complain. 'Ohh but we're just complimenting you, how would you feel if nobody whisted at you blah blah blah.' It's frankly insulting that they think an educated Western woman is ever going to fall for lines like those. It's odd to go from a country like Ireland where, by and large, you're respected for your achievements, brains, personality, sense of humour to somewhere you're little more than a piece of meat for nasty, pervy little men to salivate over because, by their own admission, they have nothing better to do.

Big Nasty

I only watched up until 7.30 or so but I can tell you this:

Brussels is a beautiful and very underrated city with great bars and restaurants and lovely people. The mix of French 'chic' and Dutch 'layed back' influences makes for a really nice combination but city life, especially at night, is uncomfortable due to the amount of hissing and spitting north Africans that come out after dark.

Millicent

Brussels is the one place where I've been to that I would fear for my safety after dark -- and I've lived in and travelled to some dodgy places (including meeting the Turkish mafia. :pac:)

A friend of mine had several female friends beat up by strangers when she lived there; had many male and female friends mugged; was spat on and cursed at and called a "whore" for no reason despite being a very conservative dresser; was abused countless other times while minding her own business; has had groups of men shout out of their cars at her late at night so much so that she said she feared walking home alone at reasonable hours lest she be "disappeared".

If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I might not have believed it, but having had the pleasure at being called a "fucking bitch" for having the audacity to politely ask a stranger to repeat himself because I didn't catch the meaning of his French quickly enough, I well believe it. And that was in the main, touristy square of Brussels. The feel and the tone of the place perceptibly changes at 11 o'clock. Before that it seems welcome; after that, I would be genuinely nervous to walk around on my own or with other women and I don't scare easily.

There does seem to be an undertone to the abuse which is racially constructed. My friend told me that, because she was white and European, it was assumed she was promiscuous or fair game, which meant either horrible, sexual harassment or deriding her as a slut.

Crazy place.

Millicent

Millicent wrote: »

Brussels is the one place where I've been to that I would fear for my safety after dark -- and I've lived in and travelled to some dodgy places (including meeting the Turkish mafia. :pac:)

A friend of mine had several female friends beat up by strangers when she lived there; had many male and female friends mugged; was spat on and cursed at and called a "whore" for no reason despite being a very conservative dresser; was abused countless other times while minding her own business; has had groups of men shout out of their cars at her late at night so much so that she said she feared walking home alone at reasonable hours lest she be "disappeared".

If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I might not have believed it, but having had the pleasure at being called a "fucking bitch" for having the audacity to politely ask a stranger to repeat himself because I didn't catch the meaning of his French quickly enough, I well believe it. And that was in the main, touristy square of Brussels. The feel and the tone of the place perceptibly changes at 11 o'clock. Before that it seems welcome; after that, I would be genuinely nervous to walk around on my own or with other women and I don't scare easily.

There does seem to be an undertone to the abuse which is racially constructed. My friend told me that, because she was white and European, it was assumed she was promiscuous or fair game, which meant either horrible, sexual harassment or deriding her as a slut.

Crazy place.

Maybe I was lucky but I never experienced anything like that, thank God. I did try to take care, but I used to get the Metro, buses and trams home alone late at night (11pm-2am) and I didn't have any hassle, really. I'm sometimes mistaken for north African/Muslim - whether that helped, I don't know. I also think it's gotten worse in the last couple of years.

It does make me angry that Europeans can't walk around in their own cities without encountering people trying to force their cultural norms onto them. I didn't mind at all covering up and being careful at night in Morocco - I was a guest in their country. But there seems to be little to no respect or tolerance from a lot of people when it's the other way around. Like the women in the video, I did find myself being careful with how I dressed and not going out with bare legs etc - why should I have had to do that? I'm sure some will call me intolerant and racist, but I find it sinister that local Belgian women are basically being forced into dressing and acting differently, taking different routes home, even not going out at all and basically turning into foreigners in their own country.

Millicent

Paula Nice Seismograph wrote: »

Maybe I was lucky but I never experienced anything like that, thank God. I did try to take care, but I used to get the Metro, buses and trams home alone late at night (11pm-2am) and I didn't have any hassle, really. I'm sometimes mistaken for north African/Muslim - whether that helped, I don't know. I also think it's gotten worse in the last couple of years.

It does make me angry that Europeans can't walk around in their own cities without encountering people trying to force their cultural norms onto them. I didn't mind at all covering up and being careful at night in Morocco - I was a guest in their country. But there seems to be little to no respect or tolerance from a lot of people when it's the other way around. Like the women in the video, I did find myself being careful with how I dressed and not going out with bare legs etc - why should I have had to do that? I'm sure some will call me intolerant and racist, but I find it sinister that local Belgian women are basically being forced into dressing and acting differently, taking different routes home, even not going out at all and basically turning into foreigners in their own country.

It was shocking. I was so upset after. I was wearing shorts and a vest top as it was the middle of summer so I may have looked like a tourist and maybe a target. But I was only there three days in total and the comment came on the second day.

The bit I found really bizarre was how this city, which is meant to be the European capital of democracy, comprising people from all countries, could be so thick with knuckle draggers. I was baffled as to why nobody was tackling this or how it had been allowed to escalate to those levels.

Can't say I noticed anything on the public transport either but perhaps I might have if I was there longer.

You're absolutely right how those women are having to change their behaviour too. I was sad for the women in those videos. Nobody for any reason should have to put up with abuse like that, especially not in their own neighbourhood. The government in Brussels is really letting down its people by not seeking to address this.

I thought the man towards the end who talked about having done this hit on a lot of factors causing this behaviour. If people can't assimilate -- while retaining their own cultures -- that's one thing. Actively looking down on a country that does not have your values and opening abusing women there is deplorable.

Millicent

Millicent wrote: »

It was shocking. I was so upset after. I was wearing shorts and a vest top as it was the middle of summer so I may have looked like a tourist and maybe a target. But I was only there three days in total and the comment came on the second day.

The bit I found really bizarre was how this city, which is meant to be the European capital of democracy, comprising people from all countries, could be so thick with knuckle draggers. I was baffled as to why nobody was tackling this or how it had been allowed to escalate to those levels.

Can't say I noticed anything on the public transport either but perhaps I might have if I was there longer.

You're absolutely right how those women are having to change their behaviour too. I was sad for the women in those videos. Nobody for any reason should have to put up with abuse like that, especially not in their own neighbourhood. The government in Brussels is really letting down its people by not seeking to address this.

I thought the man towards the end who talked about having done this hit on a lot of factors causing this behaviour. If people can't assimilate -- while retaining their own cultures -- that's one thing. Actively looking down on a country that does not have your values and opening abusing women there is deplorable.

Yep...the police there are absolutely useless. It's a total kip and nobody seems to care. It is mental that it's supposed to be the capital of Europe. I was actually there working at one of the European institutions, so it was really surreal to be in a plush building, attending unit meetings where my opinion was listened to and I was treated with respect and then to leave, walk down a few streets and be seen as basically a piece of dog sh*t and called a whore because I wouldn't reply to some thick scumbag asking me to give him my number. That was the worst thing for me - I was there after working hard, trying to better myself, learn new languages and enjoy my life and these total knuckle draggers, as you say, who could barely string a sentence together in any language, felt so superior to me. Like the man at the end of the video said, we aren't people to him, we're objects. It is really depressing to realise just how little respect many of the world's men have for women.:(

Millicent

Paula Nice Seismograph wrote: »

Yep...the police there are absolutely useless. It's a total kip and nobody seems to care. It is mental that it's supposed to be the capital of Europe. I was actually there working at one of the European institutions, so it was really surreal to be in a plush building, attending unit meetings where my opinion was listened to and I was treated with respect and then to leave, walk down a few streets and be seen as basically a piece of dog sh*t and called a whore because I wouldn't reply to some thick scumbag asking me to give him my number. That was the worst thing for me - I was there after working hard, trying to better myself, learn new languages and enjoy my life and these total knuckle draggers, as you say, who could barely string a sentence together in any language, felt so superior to me. Like the man at the end of the video said, we aren't people to him, we're objects. It is really depressing to realise just how little respect many of the world's men have for women.:(

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking! My friend has a Master's degree and was in a lobbying role; friends of hers were working in the Parliament, NGOs, political offices. All smart, capable women and yet they couldn't walk down a street alone or even in groups of women. I think it has to be a big part of why Brussels has such a high turnover rate of foreigners -- I don't think I could last a month without freaking out at someone. Depressing is right.

kerash

I think what the man said was exactly what I thought, these men live in a culture where their women are covered up, sex and sexuality is hidden and a secret thing, this creates an unhealthy fascination or idea of women who do not cover up and leads to this distorted kind of thinking and action toward women of other cultures.
It's truly vile and shocking I do pity the women having to deal with this every day.

kerash

kerash wrote: »

I think what the man said was exactly what I thought, these men live in a culture where their women are covered up, sex and sexuality is hidden and a secret thing, this creates an unhealthy fascination or idea of women who do not cover up and leads to this distorted kind of thinking and action toward women of other cultures.
It's truly vile and shocking I do pity the women having to deal with this every day.

Until recently I believed that yet supposedly Ireland was one of the most repressed countries in Europe until not very long ago and from some of my female friends we don't seen to have this kind of behaviour on the same scale as a lot of Southern Europe. Obviously as someone it doesn't affect directly I'm basing things on others' perceptions of their experiences. :pac:

Jenneke87

I live in The Hague(NL) in a simular area as portrayed in the film and it's exactly the same here. Now I have to say it probably doesn't help that I live right behind a red light district so when I stand at at the tram stop, the same type of men will come and ask how much I ask, if I work "there"and so on. They will shout things from their cars, stare at me or try and grab me. My sister works in a hotel and usually doesn't finish till 3-4 am. I cannot count the amount of times she rang me at those hours asking if I could please come to the station and walk her home as she feared for her safety walking past those men. We, unlike the one woman in the film, are not in a position to be able to move right now, so we pretty much encounter this every day. It's depressing, it really is, we both can't wait to get out of here.

Chuck Stone

They should flood the areas with undercover policewomen and bust the fuckers until they **** themselves every time a woman walks through the place.

1st Strike? A fine and name/picture in the paper.

2nd Strike? A bigger fine and house arrest for a month.

3rd Strike? A huge fine and a month in the slammer.

That's the only way of dragging these pricks into the 21st Century.

Wibbs

Millicent wrote: »

The bit I found really bizarre was how this city, which is meant to be the European capital of democracy, comprising people from all countries, could be so thick with knuckle draggers. I was baffled as to why nobody was tackling this or how it had been allowed to escalate to those levels.

Sadly the same tolerance that gives you a multicultural vibe to a place on the other side of the coin tends to encourage this kind of thing. Because these fools and their opinions/beliefs are tolerated it gives the worst of them a green light to think they can get away with it. They see it as a weakness. Paula Nice Seismograph covered up in her time in Morocco, certainly out of a sense of politeness, but there's also the undercurrent of knowing that it's a less tolerant culture so it's prudent to not go against the flow. NO fear of that for eejits like those in the film.

Add in that a tolerant culture is very afraid of being seen as intolerant, racist, culturalist*, so that stick is held over it's head. This has the effect of lending more credence to these muppets seeing such a culture as weak and of course it's a great defence too. Even in her report you'll note she's at pains to avoid too much exploration of the Muslim culture(which is a large chunk of the why), save to avoid the issue.

I don't know how you can ever "fix" this kind of thing. Not without losing some of the tolerant culture we aspire too. THough me being somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan I would trap lock persistent offenders up, if they were non citizens expel them from the country altogether and limit the influx from cultures like that to university educated people(not religious studies either).




*colour me one of those as I firmly believe some cultures are simply better than others

Wibbs

kerash wrote: »

this creates an unhealthy fascination or idea of women who do not cover up and leads to this distorted kind of thinking and action toward women of other cultures.

It pretty much boils down to the idea of covered woman = good woman, uncovered woman = whore.

Cavehill Red

The obvious misconception that all cultures are equally valid and that everyone benefits through all cultures being forcibly mixed together is the great social experimental error of our age.
I'm a big believer of 'when in Rome'. If you don't respect the way of life where you are, you shouldn't be there.
Never mind fines - the sort of sexual intimidation women face all across Europe from immigrants from North and Sub-Saharan Africa and the Middle East should be rewarded with a prison sentence, revocation of residency and deportation.

Wibbs

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm a big believer of 'when in Rome'. If you don't respect the way of life where you are, you shouldn't be there.

Funny enough Rome for all it's social faults this kind of thing wasn't one of them. It was a true melting pot. They didn't have ghettos. Italian would be living beside Jew, beside Arab, beside Greek, beside Celt, even in some cases rich beside poor. I think that made a big diff. They were pretty tolerant of cultures, so long as those people saw themselves as Roman first. That's another problem of the modern version of the melting pot. Many groups identify or are identified by their culture first, not the culture they live in.

Cavehill Red

Well, historically, Trastevere was the immigrant quarter in ancient Rome and had a dodgy reputation. But I take your point. I don't give a crap where people are from as long as they can adhere to the laws of the land they are in and respect the dominant culture where they are.
If that's not possible for those knuckle draggers, then we should stop kidding ourselves that somehow everything will eventually all work out. It hasn't and won't. Migrants from certain quarters seem to struggle even with the most basic concepts of Western culture. What proportion of rape in Norway is now conducted by migrants and refugees? Over 90%, I understand. That's a heavy price to pay for the faith of "diversity".

the_syco

I wonder do the knuckle draggers get away with it, as anyone bringing a law in to combat their sh|te would be labeled a "racist" by the knuckle-draggers support group?

Standman

The guy who just casually called her a whore as he passed her on the street in broad daylight, as if it's the most normal and acceptable thing to do, actually turned my stomach. This makes me angry.

Chuck Stone

the_syco wrote: »

I wonder do the knuckle draggers get away with it, as anyone bringing a law in to combat their sh|te would be labeled a "racist" by the knuckle-draggers support group?

I can't see too many groups becoming involved in trying to explain away that behaviour and crying foul if these uncivilised bastards were tackled with assertive action. Women not feeling safe on public transport and walking around after 11pm? What kind of bullshit is that?

They should go in with snatch squads and let the ****ers figure out if the next woman is a cop. Any illegals would be deported immediately too and these communities would not want that type of heat brought down on them.

Emme

That video is right on. I went to Belgium for a few days in July 2001 (before 9/11) and my base was in Brussels. I stayed in a bohemian guesthouse in the St Josse area of Brussels and got constantly harrassed at all times of the day when I went out the door. The guesthouse owner seemed to be blissfully unaware of it but she (Walloon Belgian) was very dark, could pass for North African and wore long dark clothing. I wore the standard travel gear jeans, t-shirts, flat shoes and rucksack, nothing obviously provocative. I'm blonde. I noticed that most women in that area dressed in North African style.

The worst harrassment was from teenage boys pulling up beside me in cars asking me did I want a lift. They couldn't take no for an answer and often followed me. I spent as much time outside Brussels as possible in other cities (Bruges, Antwerp) and they were totally different. I think the Flemish speaking part of Belgium is totally different to the French speaking Walloon part.

If I ever visited Brussels again I would dress there as I would in Morocco or any other Muslim North African country. That is the extent to which North African culture has pervaded Brussels.

There are positive aspects to this - markets, restaurants etc. but women are regarded as second class citizens and European women are regarded as easy. I met a young American ex-pat couple and the guy told me that his mother who was 53 at the time, blonde and attractive, got constantly harrassed by young gurriers of North African extraction.

Wibbs is right - unfortunately the overly PC, 'tolerant' societies invite this type of behaviour because they're afraid of seeming racist if they say anything. You can even see on the video that the presenter stresses several times that not ALL Muslim immigrants behave like this, even though that would be obvious to a person with a functioning brain. One person acting like that is one too many, IMO.

Maybe this is controversial, but I don't just don't see how the Muslim culture and way of life can ever be compatible with Western society. How can you possibly expect people to integrate when their values are basically the polar opposites of those in their new country? How can you respect people who drink alcohol and have sex outside marriage and wear skirts when your religion tells you that it's wrong?

I'm not sure there even is any way back now. I was in Amsterdam last year and I was shocked by how different it is to before. It's also full of North African men leering at women and I saw a big group hassling two gay men who were holding hands, threatening to throw them into the canal. That culture has pretty much taken over. It makes me sad.

ger vallely

I have to say that it's obviously not only north African,muslim,sub Saharan men.I lived in Holland in the early 90s'. The native dutch men there were just as bad,if not worse. Cycling home from farm work,in jeans and mucky tops,I don't know how many times a truck or car would pull over to the roadside,driver would get out and start to go at himself.It was intimidation,through and through. These were adult men who may have been on the way home to their wives.Totally unreal. I tended to laugh and cycle on.Unnerving but I tried not to let it show.

Big Nasty

ger vallely wrote: »

I have to say that it's obviously not only north African,muslim,sub Saharan men.I lived in Holland in the early 90s'. The native dutch men there were just as bad,if not worse. Cycling home from farm work,in jeans and mucky tops,I don't know how many times a truck or car would pull over to the roadside,driver would get out and start to go at himself.It was intimidation,through and through. These were adult men who may have been on the way home to their wives.Totally unreal. I tended to laugh and cycle on.Unnerving but I tried not to let it show.

I ran a pub in Belgium and 95% of any hassle we had was caused by north Africans. Had to get real strict on the door as they were driving out locals and regulars. I agree that many countries are too tolerant / accommodating to immigrants but then again countries like France, Belgium, Holland and the UK can't really blame north Africans from following them back home after they colonised their countries.

Wibbs

Paula Nice Seismograph wrote: »

Wibbs is right - unfortunately the overly PC, 'tolerant' societies invite this type of behaviour because they're afraid of seeming racist if they say anything. You can even see on the video that the presenter stresses several times that not ALL Muslim immigrants behave like this, even though that would be obvious to a person with a functioning brain. One person acting like that is one too many, IMO.

I don't think being overly PC is the issue. I think it's going to be a problem when tolerance is only going one way. How does a society balance such tolerance while dealing with intolerance within? From all sides. Not easy. The only way I can see it being achieved is if you accept that in order to have a tolerant and safe society for all or most, you're going to sometimes have to become intolerant to preserve it.

Maybe this is controversial, but I don't just don't see how the Muslim culture and way of life can ever be compatible with Western society. How can you possibly expect people to integrate when their values are basically the polar opposites of those in their new country? How can you respect people who drink alcohol and have sex outside marriage and wear skirts when your religion tells you that it's wrong?

It also depends on the nature of the culture behind the form of Islam we're talking about. Though some both without and within that faith see all Muslims as following the same message, there are wide cultural differences depending on location. There exists a big gulf between say far eastern Islam or Turkish Islam and Saudi Arabian Islam. Plus while Islam can be accused of being well OTT that in itself is a more recent thing, or at least the popularity of the medieval form is. People can forget that places like Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq where quite different a couple of generations ago. Iraq even had a strong communist party. Iran was much more western. So it could go the other way again.

Christianity has "advantages" when it comes to modernising and tolerance, it had a reformation, plus church and state were separate if only philosophically at times. It also doesn't tend to look back on some perfect golden age as the yardstick for building the perfect society. Even so you have Christians in the US attacking even killing doctors who perform abortions and some daft figure emerges concerning the number of Americans who believe in Noah's flood and the Earth being only a few thosand years old. This is America. The country that drove huge cultural and technological advances in the last century. The put men on the moon FFS. Southern good ol boys too. Hell they just put a robot on Mars and outside mission control you wouldn't have to walk too far to find some swivel eyed christian snake handlers who think gays should be burned at the stake.

The history of our own independent state is not exactly bloodless on that score. I remember a time when contraception and divorce were illegal. Abortion still is. There was a time where women were forced to give up work when they married, where young women were imprisoned for being "wayward", where widespread and covered up abuse of children was disturbingly high, where women were irreparably damaged by theologically led gynecological operations and that's just for starters and it's really not that long ago. The 80's for some of this shít and for the rest many people alive today remember and are scarred by it. And we changed, so it's possible.

I'm not sure there even is any way back now. I was in Amsterdam last year and I was shocked by how different it is to before. It's also full of North African men leering at women and I saw a big group hassling two gay men who were holding hands, threatening to throw them into the canal. That culture has pretty much taken over. It makes me sad.

I dunno, I was on the rip in the 'Dam in the late 80's and it was wild and dodgy enough then too.

Lyaiera

Wibbs wrote: »

I don't think being overly PC is the issue. I think it's going to be a problem when tolerance is only going one way. How does a society balance such tolerance while dealing with intolerance within? From all sides. Not easy. The only way I can see it being achieved is if you accept that in order to have a tolerant and safe society for all or most, you're going to sometimes have to become intolerant to preserve it.

I don't see it so much as being tolerant or intolerant. I simply say that there are certain things a society should and shouldn't do, and there are things that should and shouldn't be accommodated. The problem with this is that it's an idealogical standpoint that is taken and honoured by a huge amount of people I abhor (the Neo-Nazis and white supremacists are the lastest to come to attention with this (the attack on the Sikh church is what I'm referring to.)) But a fear of being like those people shouldn't hold me back from something I can logically defend as the right way of thinking and acting, and carrying out my beliefs and the defense of my beliefs to the fullest.

A close friend of mine has a lot of problems with feminism. After a lot of thinking and arguing with him I realised that a substantial part of the problem was that he felt uneasy, and was getting actually upset when feminists talked about the patriarchy and male privilege. Not because he was part of the problem (in fact he is entirely post-feminist in thinking and so far along the route of egalitarianism it's unreal,) but because he carried the burden of people who could be identified with him (some mysognist men) but who he was nothing like.

Similarly, people shouldn't feel that they have a cross to carry when they speak out against intolerant aspects of religion (Crusade pun thought about but not really intended.) People shouldn't feel that they have to be tolerant of something else that's intolerant simply because it's a different ethnicity, religion or philosophy, or because other people they can somewhat easily identify with are intolerant of those philosophical aspects for nefarious or simply ignorant reasons.

I can be entirely intolerant of something for more than the standard millenial reason of ignorance and hate. I can be intolerant of something because it is opposed to my vision of how women should be treated, how homosexuals should be treated, how children should be treated, and how logic should be treated.

Yes, there are people who will be intolerant of things because they're fearful of something different. I can be intolerant of something because it's wrong. And we need to accept that because there are a lot of things in society to be intolerant of. And just because my father and mother are ignorant of such things (she isn't, but figuratively) doesn't mean that I am intolerant of them for the same reason.

Siuin

Wibbs wrote: »

Funny enough Rome for all it's social faults this kind of thing wasn't one of them. It was a true melting pot. They didn't have ghettos. Italian would be living beside Jew, beside Arab, beside Greek, beside Celt, even in some cases rich beside poor. I think that made a big diff. They were pretty tolerant of cultures, so long as those people saw themselves as Roman first. That's another problem of the modern version of the melting pot. Many groups identify or are identified by their culture first, not the culture they live in.

What? I visited what was the Jewish ghetto just last summer...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Ghetto

jam_mac_jam

To be honest I think this is also to do with French ( speaking) culture as well. Why doesnt this happen in birmingham or London? I have never been to Brussels but basing it on Paris and how the men there both North African muslim and French can act more like animals then men I would say that it the worst of both worlds.

Yes I agree it is a North African/ muslim problem however I wonder does the underlying culture add to this.

Big Nasty

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

To be honest I think this is also to do with French ( speaking) culture as well. Why doesnt this happen in birmingham or London? I have never been to Brussels but basing it on Paris and how the men there both North African muslim and French can act more like animals then men I would say that it the worst of both worlds.

Yes I agree it is a North African/ muslim problem however I wonder does the underlying culture add to this.

Would I be right in saying that north African countries were predominantly colonised by the French? I.e. French is a language they already speak so are more likely to migrate to French speaking countries themselves?

Wibbs

Siuin wrote: »

What? I visited what was the Jewish ghetto just last summer...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Ghetto

Aye but that's much later Christianised Rome S and Nazi level shít went down in that ghetto, long before Adolf grew his Charlie Chaplin tash*. I meant ancient Rome. Togas*and centurions and such. While they did have an immigrant quarter as Cavehill Red pointed out, they were usually far more mixed, all bunched together than many modern multicultural cities. So long as you weren't a pain in the arse they didn't seem to give two hoots where you were from. Indeed they seemed to go mad for new cultural stuff they could add on as a fashion accessory.









*aside... Interestingly, though the Borgias make for good history and scandal, especially their popes with mistresses and lots of kids born outside the marriage bed, one of their popes whose name escapes was remarkably tolerant of Jews for the time(and later) and gave refuge to fleeing persecuted Jews from France and other parts of Italy. No anti Semite was he.

**though funny enough they didn't wear togas much at all. Cumbersome useless yokes. Like the equivalent of ballgowns, only trotted out on certain occasions. And you'd be better off knowing Greek rather than Latin.

jam_mac_jam

MCMLXXV wrote: »

Would I be right in saying that north African countries were predominantly colonised by the French? I.e. French is a language they already speak so are more likely to migrate to French speaking countries themselves?

In general, yes.

Cavehill Red

To extend this interesting off-topic only slightly, Mary Beard's recent three part series Meet the Romans is a very good insight into how different cultures accommodated each other in ancient Rome.
Effectively various classes, cultures and races all rubbed along together in the only global city of its day. The reason for this was simple - Roman citizenship. In a world divided into Romans, their slaves, their allies, their subjugated colonies and their potential enemies, your Roman citizenship was the most valuable item you could have.
People aspired to it, sometimes worked for decades to earn it (either in the army or as slaves who were later freed), and valued it. Once achieved, maintaining it simply involved adhering to Roman laws and customs.
The difference today is that people from cultures envious of our lifestyle in Western Europe are often granted the right to live and work here without the concomitant requirement from them to respect and adhere to our laws and customs. With imaginary sky daddy and his holy book telling them that their ancient desert belief system is divinely superior to our custom and law, it is inevitable that many will seek to cling to their medieval behaviours and will not assimilate successfully in the way that the multicultures of ancient Rome did.

southsiderosie

Cavehill Red wrote: »

To extend this interesting off-topic only slightly, Mary Beard's recent three part series Meet the Romans is a very good insight into how different cultures accommodated each other in ancient Rome.
Effectively various classes, cultures and races all rubbed along together in the only global city of its day. The reason for this was simple - Roman citizenship. In a world divided into Romans, their slaves, their allies, their subjugated colonies and their potential enemies, your Roman citizenship was the most valuable item you could have.
People aspired to it, sometimes worked for decades to earn it (either in the army or as slaves who were later freed), and valued it. Once achieved, maintaining it simply involved adhering to Roman laws and customs.
The difference today is that people from cultures envious of our lifestyle in Western Europe are often granted the right to live and work here without the concomitant requirement from them to respect and adhere to our laws and customs. With imaginary sky daddy and his holy book telling them that their ancient desert belief system is divinely superior to our custom and law, it is inevitable that many will seek to cling to their medieval behaviours and will not assimilate successfully in the way that the multicultures of ancient Rome did.

On that note, this is an interesting article on how cities over time have adapted to diversity - it is very jargon-y for the first few pages, but if you skip directly to the case studies, the picture the author paints of Rome sounds strikingly like the American approach to immigration: you can keep your cultural ways as long as you recognize that you are now at the center of the universe, adopt our consumerist culture, and respect civil law. There was also a very sharp line drawn: you had no rights whatsoever unless you were a Roman citizen.

I think the key difference between the US/Roman model and the dominant European model of integration is the emphasis on civil citizenship. Modern European countries have generally had models of ethnic citizenship (with the notable exception of France); subsequently it isn't quite clear what values newcomers are supposed to adopt because they will never become white.

The other difference - one that brings us back to the video in question - is that the US takes a very 'sink or swim' approach to immigration: immigrants are not eligible for welfare (even if they are there legally), so if you don't have a job, you don't eat. Subsequently, the unemployment rate among immigrants is generally lower than for natives. On the other hand, in much of Europe, immigrants and their descendants have astronomical unemployment rates, but
they still get government housing and stipends. So you have a situation where young men in their 20s have nothing to do all day but harass passersby (a situation which, in my unfortunate personal experience, is quite similar in 'native' ghettoes in the US with high male unemployment rates).

I am not saying this to excuse the behavior in the video. But I think that most European countries have utterly failed in how they have handled immigration from an economic, social, and political perspective, and this video is the sorry result. Liberal societies are not well-equipped to deal with illiberal populations, and in fact, liberalism may allow illiberal practices to flourish.

Cavehill Red

southsiderosie wrote: »

I am not saying this to excuse the behavior in the video. But I think that most European countries have utterly failed in how they have handled immigration from an economic, social, and political perspective, and this video is the sorry result. Liberal societies are not well-equipped to deal with illiberal populations, and in fact, liberalism may allow illiberal practices to flourish.

This is the nail on the head right here. Europe's postwar hegemony functions via soft power for the most part, a format of engagement ill-equipped to deal with the innate intransigences of migrants from frankly backward cultures. A firmer method of engagement is necessary to eradicate this sort of behaviour from Europe's streets.

Wibbs

For me what southsiderosie and Cavehill Red point out hits on the problem 100%. In ancient Rome you had rights as a citizen, but you had to earn that right. That made it incredibly valuable an asset.

In the early Islamic states it was quite similar. You had more rights as a Muslim citizen, but again you had to earn them. EG you were elligible for military service, you had to give a portion of your income to charity and you had to follow the socities mores.

In modern Europe basically speaking you show up, hang around for long enough and/or have children and you get it pretty much automatically, all the while you will be supported by the state regardless of whether you add to the society or not. In fact the hardest part is showing up, once you're in you're pretty much in.

So take two for example Muslim men. Chap A works hard, tries to build a life for himself and his family, adds to society in a positive way while keeping his heritage going. Chap B, idles on the dole, gets into scrapes with the law, impacts society in a negative way. Both A and B have the exact same chance of becoming citizens. That right there is daft. Any chap C who could go either way has no real incentive to become the better citizen. Funny enough I once had this conversation with an elderly Pakistani(now UK citizen) Muslim man I met while waiting for a flight. He had worked like a slave to build a life for him and his family and had succeeded too. His take was "the west" was negatively impacting young Muslim men, but not for the reasons some of the religious were suggesting, but because of this lack of incentive to become a positive citizen. In the absence of that incentive the bad eggs were becoming delinquents and the good eggs were more likely to look to religious extremism as a positive force. It was harder to be middle of the road.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

A firmer method of engagement is necessary to eradicate this sort of behaviour from Europe's streets.

Good luck with that CH, the handwringers would be out in force agin it. Plus Europe still has some background collective guilt about colonialism and imperialism and various other isms, so collectively we are more reticent about being too strident on things like this. Including Ireland for that matter, even though we weren't involved in too many isms.

pickarooney

I never understood how the first and basic rule of any extremist religion was not 'cop the **** on and behave yourself like a human being'

southsiderosie

Wibbs wrote: »

For me what southsiderosie and Cavehill Red point out hits on the problem 100%. In ancient Rome you had rights as a citizen, but you had to earn that right. That made it incredibly valuable an asset.

In the early Islamic states it was quite similar. You had more rights as a Muslim citizen, but again you had to earn them. EG you were elligible for military service, you had to give a portion of your income to charity and you had to follow the socities mores.

In modern Europe basically speaking you show up, hang around for long enough and/or have children and you get it pretty much automatically, all the while you will be supported by the state regardless of whether you add to the society or not. In fact the hardest part is showing up, once you're in you're pretty much in.

I think that depends on how you define 'citizenship' and 'rights'. It is very difficult for immigrants - particularly from the developing world - to get legal citizenship in most European countries; Germany had almost a half-century of immigration before they would even acknowledge that they were a country of immigrants on par with the US, much less lay out a pathway to citizenship. The Germans 'wanted workers and got people'.

TH Marshall laid out a classic pathway to citizenship: legal rights, followed by voting rights, followed by social rights (i.e. welfare). Whereas asylum seekers and other new arrivals to Europe go through a reverse process of citizenship: immediate social rights, with limited legal (asylum seekers can't work) and electoral rights. Where legal rights do come into play is not only at the national, but at the international level: rules on asylum law, EU regulations, and accepted 'human rights' best practices have somewhat tied the hands of governments: it is hard to deport people once they are 'in' (even if they are not legal citizens), and there are few constraints on family reunification (which is how most immigration happens these days anyway).

southsiderosie

To bring things back to the OP...

I think there are two ways to address the issues in this video. The first is, states should not allow immigration, much less family reunification, unless people can show that they can support themselves and their family members without assistance from the state. Idle hands are the devil's playthings, and this is especially true for young men whose worse impulses - in any society - are essentially 'tamed' by the obligations of work, and eventually, family.

The second way is, governments need to get serious about enforcing civil law, and if that means sending out undercover police to issue harassment citations and the like, so be it. However, I think any campaign would be far more effective if there is some working partnership between women both of Belgian and foreign descent. From what I have read of the banlieues in France, North African women in these areas are subject to extreme harassment from young men not he street, to the point that many dare not leave the house without hijab. Sexual assault is also a shockingly common problem. Yet the police have abandoned these areas as no-go zones, leaving these women to their fate.

If there is a cross-cultural women's coalition to fight back across this kind of harassment, and demand that the state protect their civil rights, then there is less room for cries of 'racism' - it becomes a gender rights issue not simply a 'bash the foreigners' issue. However, the intellectual European left seems rather cavalier about it all, but that is quite an easy position to take when one is safely tucked away in the 6th arrondissement...

seachto7

Spent 4 months in Liege in the south of Belgium, and never noticed it this bad. However, I did live in Italy for 2 years, in Rome, and the Italian lads would chance their arm with the tourists the same as the video. However I never heard them insult them. I was gobsmacked at the neck of them. I remember an oriental lady taking notes outside fancy clothes shops on a fancy street, and a guy walks straight up and walks with her, trying to get her number etc etc. Another time, 2 blonde American women got awful hassle/attention crossing the street, lads chancing their arms with them. I was just so gutted that Italian women weren't doing it to me........

That video is pretty bad though

IrishAm

southsiderosie wrote: »

G even acknowledge that they were a country of immigrants on par with the US.

Eh, Germany was 99.99 per cent homogeneous up until relatively recently. A nation of immigrants it most certainly is not.

southsiderosie

IrishAm wrote: »

Eh, Germany was 99.99 per cent homogeneous up until relatively recently. A nation of immigrants it most certainly is not.

Germany has had significant in-migration since the 1950s.

In 1988 7.3% of the German population were foreigners. To put that in perspective, the figure for the US at that time was 7.8%. Yet you still had German officials as late as 2010 insisting that Germany 'was not a country of immigration'.

Wibbs

That's what I thought. Turks alone make up a couple of million people in Germany. As you say though it did seem to be ignored publicly at times.

RDM_83 again

Wibbs wrote: »

For me what southsiderosie and Cavehill Red point out hits on the problem 100%. In ancient Rome you had rights as a citizen, but you had to earn that right. That made it incredibly valuable an asset.

In the early Islamic states it was quite similar. You had more rights as a Muslim citizen, but again you had to earn them. EG you were elligible for military service, you had to give a portion of your income to charity and you had to follow the socities mores.

In modern Europe basically speaking you show up, hang around for long enough and/or have children and you get it pretty much automatically, all the while you will be supported by the state regardless of whether you add to the society or not. In fact the hardest part is showing up, once you're in you're pretty much in.

So we're agreed that we should all read Starship Troopers (sorry )

On topic, is Brussels that bad? Been there a few times with the OH as well as Morocco, in only one of those places did she notice stuff.

Eh, germany is full of turks, ye
loads of immigration stuff and issues going on there

IrishAm

southsiderosie wrote: »

Germany has had significant in-migration since the 1950s.

In 1988 7.3% of the German population were foreigners. To put that in perspective, the figure for the US at that time was 7.8%. Yet you still had German officials as late as 2010 insisting that Germany 'was not a country of immigration'.

Exactly. As I said, Germany was 99.999999% homogeneous until relatively recently. A nation of immigrants it most certainly is not.

Anyway, is this nonsense happening in Ireland? Ali Bracken, a crime correspondent for a number of papers, wrote about a fifteen year old in Galway who was gang raped by three Africans.

I cannot seem to find the article online(surprise, surprise!) but if I root out my paper bin I shall find it and be able to scan the article up.

Crazy stuff.

IrishAm

bluewolf wrote: »

Eh, germany is full of turks, ye
loads of immigration stuff and issues going on there

The mosques are our barracks, the domes are our helmets, the minarets are our swords, and the faithful are our army.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Erdogan.

Look up his speech to German-Turks in 2009.

But its all Germany's fault.......

southsiderosie

IrishAm wrote: »

Exactly. As I said, Germany was 99.999999% homogeneous until relatively recently. A nation of immigrants it most certainly is not.

This statement only makes sense if having three generations of Turks in your country who are upwards of 25% of the population in some urban areas counts as 'relatively recently'. Germany has not been homogeneous since the end of WWII.

Wibbs

IrishAm wrote: »

Anyway, is this nonsense happening in Ireland? Ali Bracken, a crime correspondent for a number of papers, wrote about a fifteen year old in Galway who was gang raped by three Africans.

I cannot seem to find the article online(surprise, surprise!) but if I root out my paper bin I shall find it and be able to scan the article up.

Crazy stuff.

Indeed, IA, but as we used to say more often in the past "links or GTFO", particularly relevant on emotive subjects like this. So for balance links or a scan please, otherwise it's akin to "I heard this from a bloke in the pub".

IrishAm

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed, IA, but as we used to say more often in the past "links or GTFO", particularly relevant on emotive subjects like this. So for balance links or a scan please, otherwise it's akin to "I heard this from a bloke in the pub".

On Wednesday, August 1, a 15-year-old girl was allegedly raped in a city centre apartment. The rape reportedly took place in Galway city between 4pm and 7pm on Wednesday.

Three men were arrested in relation to the incident. Two of the men were minors, while a third is aged 19. The two minors were arrested at the apartment in question on Wednesday evening and were held at Galway garda station.

The third man was arrested in the Athlone area on Thursday and was taken to Ballinasloe garda station.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-quiz-suspect-on-sex-attack-in-toilets-at-racecourse-3195113.html

Ali Bracken, reporting for the Mail on Sunday, gave the perps ethnicity as African. Which the Indo fails to mention(shocker, I know!).

IrishAm

southsiderosie wrote: »

This statement only makes sense if having three generations of Turks in your country who are upwards of 25% of the population in some urban areas counts as 'relatively recently'. Germany has not been homogeneous since the end of WWII.

Germany has been homogeneous for thousand of years and multicultural for a half a dozen decades. A nation of immigrants it is not. No matter how much you would like to re-write history.

Chips Lovell

Why is their ethnicity relevant?