reflection of

Do you thing the ladies lounge is reasonable Representative of the opinions of Irish women.....I do not and heres why.

I know a lot of this is to do with the nature of the Internet but I still fine it amazing how one acceptable narrative quickly emerges and there is subtle pressure to agree with the...correct narative...this is most in evident when the
discussion is of social issues or is a discussions about male/female relationships in the ladies lounge.

riveratom

mariaalice wrote: »

Do you thing the ladies lounge is reasonable Representative of the opinions of Irish women.....I do not and heres why.

I know a lot of this is to do with the nature of the Internet but I still fine it amazing how one acceptable narrative quickly emerges and there is subtle pressure to agree with the...correct narative...this is most in evident when the
discussion is of social issues or is a discussions about male/female relationships in the ladies lounge.

Isn't that just Boards.ie in general?!

Dolbert

I kind of agree with you tbh. All it takes is one popular poster or another to verbally smack someone down, and everyone else will follow suit, even if the original post was reasonable. Sometimes it can all be a bit 'Mean Girls'.

One poster who I know was getting a lot of flack on thread for something she posted (nothing more than an opinion going against the grain). She got at least 5 or 6 PMs from posters saying that while they agreed with her, they were afraid to post as such in the thread as they knew everyone would round on them.

Disclaimer: I like TLL, and I enjoy posting here. It's just something I've noticed more here than in other fora.

28064212

mariaalice wrote: »

Do you thing the ladies lounge is reasonable Representative of the opinions of Irish women.....I do not and heres why.

I know a lot of this is to do with the nature of the Internet but I still fine it amazing how one acceptable narrative quickly emerges and there is subtle pressure to agree with the...correct narative...this is most in evident when the
discussion is of social issues or is a discussions about male/female relationships in the ladies lounge.

...how is this not exactly like real life? One popular/forceful person in a group discussion giving their opinion is often enough to totally sway an argument. If anything, I'd say it's more of a problem in real life than it is on boards

I should hope nobody feels afraid to express themselves in here just because it's against popular opinion
life would be very dull if we agreed on everything

Princess Peach

bluewolf wrote: »

I should hope nobody feels afraid to express themselves in here just because it's against popular opinion
life would be very dull if we agreed on everything

I will stand up and say I have felt like this at times in this forum. If someone posted an opinion similar to mine, and several people have been against it, I may not post in defense. And I have also PMed individual posters to tell them this.

Maybe just a reflection on me though. I'm a sensitive soul and I don't like confrontation.

I would probably behave the same in other forums, just can't think of any similar instances off the top of my mind.

Can't think of anything off the top of my mind, but I might behave like this in real life too. Maybe others are like this too!

Wibbs

Dolbert wrote: »

One poster who I know was getting a lot of flack on thread for something she posted (nothing more than an opinion going against the grain). She got at least 5 or 6 PMs from posters saying that while they agreed with her, they were afraid to post as such in the thread as they knew everyone would round on them.

Report that crap as you find it. You'll always get some group influence/pressure, but if it gets to a point of "ah here" report it, co it'll be frowned upon and will defo be looked at.

I bolded it to hopefully make the point more clearly

Larianne

bluewolf wrote: »

I should hope nobody feels afraid to express themselves in here just because it's against popular opinion
life would be very dull if we agreed on everything

The thing with this forum is that on occasion if someone posts an opinion which others don't agree with the word 'Bitchy' or 'Bitchiness' is thrown about. I just don't bother then.

jimbobaloobob

Its all part of the Herd mentality that exists nowadays. Theres as many people fitting in here and agreeing with it as are fitting in and not.

Like the people who love facebook and who dont.

Its all part of the mix. The problem probably lies in the fact that your prob more likely to post in agreement than get into a posting debate to defend or offer a different opinion.

dearg lady

Hmmm, very interesting thread! Yeah, this does seem to happen, and it is indicative of real life too.
Sometimes I find myself overthinking a response, or rewriting it cos I'm concerned for how people will respond. Perhaps we're all slightly harsher online subconsciously cos we can hide behind our computers. Of course the other thing is once somethings written, it's there to be picked apart, whereas in conversation the exact wording can't be gone over again and again and picked at. But hey, maybe this thread will stop and make us think before we jump on the bandwagon

jimbobaloobob

dearg lady wrote: »

Hmmm, very interesting thread! Yeah, this does seem to happen, and it is indicative of real life too.
Sometimes I find myself overthinking a response, or rewriting it cos I'm concerned for how people will respond. Perhaps we're all slightly harsher online subconsciously cos we can hide behind our computers. Of course the other thing is once somethings written, it's there to be picked apart, whereas in conversation the exact wording can't be gone over again and again and picked at. But hey, maybe this thread will stop and make us think before we jump on the bandwagon

another words peace and love, peace and love

Wibbs

Princess Peach wrote: »

I will stand up and say I have felt like this at times in this forum. If someone posted an opinion similar to mine, and several people have been against it, I may not post in defense. And I have also PMed individual posters to tell them this.

Maybe just a reflection on me though. I'm a sensitive soul and I don't like confrontation.

I would probably behave the same in other forums, just can't think of any similar instances off the top of my mind.

Can't think of anything off the top of my mind, but I might behave like this in real life too. Maybe others are like this too!

I've found it(not just this forum) to be similar to real life on that score. One big difference being as dearg lady points out, it's harder to pick apart a spoken conversation.

Echoing 28064212 one big difference to and advantage over the same real life though, is on a forum even the most socially reticent have much more of a chance to get their oar in. They can take their time, nobody's looking at them so to speak. It makes it a lot easier for introverts. I've met a few who would be considered extroverts on here, who in face to face conversation are remarkably introverted, even tongue tied to the degree that in the real world they would be ignored more often than not.

Still, any forum/debate/discussion requires some level of engagement, even challenge. If you have a view, someone, or a few someones will take the opposite view. You can choose to step away, or you can choose to challenge it, but it is your choice.

Then again unlike Princess Peach I revel in going against the grain. I tend to break out in a rash when it comes to the "accepted view" and TBH I don't give a fook who holds that view or how many they are.

The difference being I don't think of it personally. Just because person A thinks something I find daft, does not mean I think person A necessarily daft. I separate the two.

I'll say this at the risk of being flamed... I have noted a bit of a gender gap on this last point. I personally have found men in general are less likely to see a specific debate going agin them as a personal attack.

jimbobaloobob wrote:

Its all part of the Herd mentality that exists nowadays.

There has always been a herd mentality in humans, since we became human(and before). It's nowhere close to being a recent development. What has changed is the scale and speed of it.

Nymeria

I remember my first tutorial in Social Psychology, about 25 of us were given a questionnaire to fill out on social issues; a few scenarios given with four quite different options as an answer. We answered them individually and then handed them up to the tutor.

The following week in class, we were first asked how individual we thought we were, and how much we thought we were influenced by others. The tutor went around the room and most people said that no, we did not think we were influenced by other people.

We were then put into 5 groups of 5 and given the same questionnaire to discuss as a group, and come up with a collective answer. The catch was that everybody had to agree to the answer chosen, so it had to be one we felf represented us all.

With the exception of a few people, by the end of the tutorial most people had changed from their original individual answer to a completely different group answer. Alot of us were quite sheepish when she reminded us of how we maintained pretty strongly the week before that we were not influenced by others :rolleyes:.

We are very much social creatures, conditioned to seek out alliances and approval from others. Evolutionary wise it was probably for survival.


Not sure if I'm allowed to link to outside websites but this is about some interesting social experiments that were carried out about group conformity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments These have been replicated quite recently with similar results.

Thats not to say that people aren't individuals, or that they don't think differently. However there is certainly a difference between thinking something that does not conform to others and being vocal about it in the context of a group discussion.

I agree with the poster who said that we are most likely to post in support of the general consensus, and if we don't agree then just not post at all. It might also be to do to with feeling that when you are part of a group identity, you don't want to lose that or be excluded.

You could say that boards.ie is somewhat of a group itself, even though there are many different topics and personalities within it, the very fact that we have all joined up and login to contribute means that we are invested in this 'group' and therefore are unlikely to want to be isolated or snubbed by the others in the group. The thanks system is another way of reinforcing that inclusion mentality.

strobe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrNIuFrso8I

dearg lady

This thread has got me thinking! There has been times when I haven't posted or toned down a reply when I saw other responses, but there's been a few times when I've really stuck to my guns and defended something I've written.

One time in particular sticks out in my head, it was on boards, but not the ladies lounge. I was the only one offering an opposing view, I was called stupid, it was repeatedly pointed out that as the only one offering this view, I must be wrong, and generally treated in a very dismissive manner. I did keep hoping someone would come along and agree with me, but I had to fight my corner alone. The feeling of being browbeaten was quite intense though, and I was annoyed over that.

There were a couple of responses to threads that inspired me to post this thread.

When there is a thread about sexual/social mores every response is picked over for any even minute evidence of victim blaming in one thread the mer posting of the thread ...which asked do you think casual sex with a stranger could be risky was taking to mean the poster was engaging in victim blaming it was like a witch hunt. This leads posters to either not respond for fear of being labeled as engaging in victim blaming or if you do respond you have to post a long detailed nuanced response explaining every word you use before you get to the point you were intending to make!

Wibbs

I'd kinda agree with you M. There can certainly be a consensus on certain topics and that goes for many forums. Are there certain going against the flow views I'd hold that would go over like a lead balloon in here with some? Sure. Sometimes I've stuck my oar in, but with some of the more emotive subjects* I don't see the point. it's likely the above consensus among the community so let it be with emotive stuff, it may cause trouble and kick something off and leave a bad taste and in the end while I'm a mod of the place I am a bloke so that adds to it**. In "real life" I'm significantly less backward in coming forward, but that's an entirely different environment IMHO.









*rape and abortion to name but two. They rarely go well, because people can be quite polarised and heels get dug in all over the shop(not just in tLL).

**in a couple of other forums I have stuck my oar in(and how) because my gender wouldn't come into it. In the end of the day with this forum the clue is in the title, for me anyway. It's why I've always gotten the hump with the thankfully minor bunch of blokes whining that it's not the forum for them. Fine. Go and post somewhere else. I've a lot less issue with a woman going agin the grain here. Like I say that's just me.

daenerysstormborn3

I don't tone down my opinions but there are times when certain posters are involved in a discussion and are "ruling the roost" and I just think to myself "nah, can't be bothered getting into it with him/her" based on previous experience.

Das Kitty

If anything I feel freer to express my opinions here than I do in the real world. Granted I do make sure I've fully thought through what I say and how I say it--a luxury not afforded in casual conversation.

I do find myself scrolling past opinions I disagree with if I don't feel I have the energy for the to-and-fro. Internet disagreements are not worth sacrificing too much head space. I don't have that much to spare!

I've never treated boards as being anonymous, and I try to behave online as thought anyone reading it could see my real name and face. Equally I try to treat other posters like we are speaking face-to-face, and not forget that they are human beings with thoughts and feelings too.

You'll always have a herd-mentality with humans, we crave society and being the same so we can live together in harmony. I don't think boards is any different to any other facet of life. In fact I've had my deep seated opinions challenged and changed more in tLL than anywhere else.

Ilyana

I think a lot of the reason why people have shied away from tLL is because there is a number of regular posters who are very popular, and with whom other posters tend to agree, on many topics. I like these posters and have no issue with them, but I can see why others might be less inclined to disagree with these posters' opinions on a given issue, as the majority will probably side with the established order of things. It's basic human nature IMO.

Also, sometimes one harsh word can lead to a complete attack on a poster. I've seen it happen, and defended posters who I feel have been treated unfairly. But we do need to watch our words around here, unless we really don't care who might take offence at a certain turn of phrase.

Polloloca

There's definately the bandwagon crowd in the ladies lounge, maybe thats just how forums work in general. It seems you can have all the opinions you like on something as long as they're opinions that the popular posters agree with. It doesn't really bother me, to be honest. I will say what I think on a subject, and I don't really care what others have to say to be honest. I think most of the time its for the thanks.

Giselle

mariaalice wrote: »

There were a couple of responses to threads that inspired me to post this thread.

When there is a thread about sexual/social mores every response is picked over for any even minute evidence of victim blaming in one thread the mer posting of the thread ...which asked do you think casual sex with a stranger could be risky was taking to mean the poster was engaging in victim blaming it was like a witch hunt. This leads posters to either not respond for fear of being labeled as engaging in victim blaming or if you do respond you have to post a long detailed nuanced response explaining every word you use before you get to the point you were intending to make!

The thread you're talking about is a perfect example. That OP was even questioned why she chose to start a thread on that topic! Its a discussion forum FFS! And that was from a moderator.

That OP was basically character assassinated, even though she made her position clear - repeatedly - and even had her mental health questioned when she defended herself. It was absolutely disgusting, bullying, nasty, cliquey behaviour of the very worst kind. I voiced my opinion on thread.

The OP later closed her account, after ten years as a member.

That opened my eyes to a lot of things in TLL. There is a feeling here, as evidenced by that thread, that discussion is only acceptable if it falls within currently acceptable parameters.

I don't post in here much anymore, which is a shame. There is a sort of predictability of how threads are going to play out if they're in any way contentious, and the sniping at posters who don't conform to the party line is a bit annoying, and its getting more and more obvious.

Malari

I don't always post when my opinion goes against the grain, usually because I know my post could be picked apart by several people and I don't have that much time to respond.

I sometimes think what I would say if I was having the same discussion with my friends and most of the time I'm more vocal if I disagree with the consensus in real life. I think it's because my friends know me. They know and like who I am already. If I have an opinion none of them agrees with they won't hold it against me or use it to define me. In this forum, maybe on Boards in general, if you are not a regular poster it would be easy to be remembered in a certain way because of something you've said on thread that went against popular opinion.

Ilyana

Malari wrote: »

I don't always post when my opinion goes against the grain, usually because I know my post could be picked apart by several people and I don't have that much time to respond

And that's a huge shame. The whole point of internet fora is for people to express a diversity of views without feeling judged.

Fair enough if you were advocating something totally socially unacceptable, or being a complete b!tch (which I'm sure you weren't!). But nobody should have to feel like they can't say how they feel about a certain topic for fear of being bullied off the forum.

daenerysstormborn3

Giselle wrote: »

The thread you're talking about is a perfect example. That OP was even questioned why she chose to start a thread on that topic! Its a discussion forum FFS! And that was from a moderator.

That OP was basically character assassinated, even though she made her position clear - repeatedly - and even had her mental health questioned when she defended herself. It was absolutely disgusting, bullying, nasty, cliquey behaviour of the very worst kind. I voiced my opinion on thread.

The OP later closed her account, after ten years as a member.

That opened my eyes to a lot of things in TLL. There is a feeling here, as evidenced by that thread, that discussion is only acceptable if it falls within currently acceptable parameters.

I don't post in here much anymore, which is a shame. There is a sort of predictability of how threads are going to play out if they're in any way contentious, and the sniping at posters who don't conform to the party line is a bit annoying, and its getting more and more obvious.

That thread was horrible and the way NP's mental health was questioned was ridiculous. That thread is a good example of irregular posters falling into line behind more regular, vocal posters so as not to rock the boat. Sometimes you can actually see in a person's post when they get to the point where they're saying "yeah you're right, how silly of me to disagree" purely because of who the poster is.

I don't believe that posters who are pushy with their "opinions", i.e. the type that only want to have a discussion as long as you agree with them, are not like that in real life.

I wouldn't say I'm very opinionated because, as I said already, sometimes you just can't be bothered getting into something with another poster, but I don't let myself be swayed by the opinions of those more vocal than I am.

Princess Peach

Ilyana wrote: »

And that's a huge shame. The whole point of internet fora is for people to express a diversity of views without feeling judged.

Fair enough if you were advocating something totally socially unacceptable, or being a complete b!tch (which I'm sure you weren't!). But nobody should have to feel like they can't say how they feel about a certain topic for fear of being bullied off the forum.

One of the reasons I don't stand up is there have been a few times I went against the grain and gotten, what I felt, were pretty harsh reactions.

I drop in and out of the forum. I use it more when I have an assignment due :P But I try not to get too involved in the heated discussions.

Malari

Ilyana wrote: »

And that's a huge shame. The whole point of internet fora is for people to express a diversity of views without feeling judged.

Fair enough if you were advocating something totally socially unacceptable, or being a complete b!tch (which I'm sure you weren't!). But nobody should have to feel like they can't say how they feel about a certain topic for fear of being bullied off the forum.

No, it's not really a fear of being bullied. I know that it might end up in a time-consuming discussion and I don't always have the ability to respond quickly. Same as the way I wouldn't throw my "different" two cents into a discussion with a room full of people if I was just about to leave.

Maybe I will try to be more vocal though. At least this thread might make people think twice before picking on an opinion different to their own.

Ilyana

Malari wrote: »

No, it's not really a fear of being bullied. I know that it might end up in a time-consuming discussion and I don't always have the ability to respond quickly. Same as the way I wouldn't throw my "different" two cents into a discussion with a room full of people if I was just about to leave.

My mistake, I thought you meant you were worried about being bullied.

My post was kind of meant in a general way too though, to all posters as well

Tigger99

Do I think tLL is a reflection of conversations in real life?

On the whole, no. I find it more tolerant and open to more liberal thinking. I think the forum is more sensitive to victim blaming and sexiest double standards as a whole, but I think thats a good thing. I think its good to question the status quo.

I dunno, i find this thread weird, I mean there's been a few digs at previous threads, which I think is unfair. I've been in two minds about pm'ing a mod or posting here. I suppose I felt that if it was something i feel strong enough about I should say it in public.

Giselle

Tigger99 wrote: »

I think its good to question the status quo.

But when a status quo is established for what's considered acceptable opinions, and discussion or dissent is quelled as a result of posters feeling they're being harshly judged or dismissed, is it not time to question that status quo in turn?

I think tolerance and sensitivity are paramount, and its one of the nicer features of the forum. But issues should still be examined, and as as often said on the forum, women don't have a hive-mind. Everyones' opinion should be valued.

Maybe there should be a feedback thread on this stuff, it seems to be straying a bit, and posters obviously feel the need to voice opinions on the current status quo.

eviltwin

There are definitely things I don't like to contribute to here, I feel sometimes the debates and discussions move away from being of the kind you would have in real life to the kind where you almost need to have an expert knowledge of the subject to make a valid contribution. I sometimes feel my two cents isn't really worth putting up in comparison to the knowledge some posters have on certain subjects.

I also think some posters are too quick to pick apart a comment that they feel is not informed enough when perhaps they need to accept that for the average man or woman on the street with a basic knowledge of the topic in question, that kind of attitude is common. I feel some of those responses are shot down too fast rather than explored.

On a positive note I do like the way this hasn't become a place where men bashing is the norm. I do like the fact that meaty topics are discussed, I just wish I was better able to contribute to them I suppose.

Malari

eviltwin wrote: »

There are definitely things I don't like to contribute to here, I feel sometimes the debates and discussions move away from being of the kind you would have in real life to the kind where you almost need to have an expert knowledge of the subject to make a valid contribution. I sometimes feel my two cents isn't really worth putting up in comparison to the knowledge some posters have on certain subjects.

I also think some posters are too quick to pick apart a comment that they feel is not informed enough when perhaps they need to accept that for the average man or woman on the street with a basic knowledge of the topic in question, that kind of attitude is common. I feel some of those responses are shot down too fast rather than explored.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say I suppose. Sometimes the demand to back up your claim is just too trying. I know that you can't just spout any old thing as fact, but when it's just a harmless discussion and not a proper debate I think it would be ok to be a bit more tolerant. If someone comes in an says "I work in X area and I have experience of X and this is generally the way it is" it's just so confrontational when people come back with simply "source?". It would be welcoming if more posters were willing to just say "really, I thought it would be Y". It might make people reconsider their opinion rather than when they are backed into a corner and asked to prove themselves in the hope of a failure to do so and a triumphant "hah!"

Wibbs

Tigger99 wrote: »

Do I think tLL is a reflection of conversations in real life?

On the whole, no. I find it more tolerant and open to more liberal thinking. I think the forum is more sensitive to victim blaming and sexiest double standards as a whole, but I think thats a good thing. I think its good to question the status quo.

I dunno, i find this thread weird, I mean there's been a few digs at previous threads, which I think is unfair. I've been in two minds about pm'ing a mod or posting here. I suppose I felt that if it was something i feel strong enough about I should say it in public.

Yea while I take the points raised, maybe we should avoid specific examples, especially if people have closed accounts and the like.

Giselle wrote: »

The thread you're talking about is a perfect example. That OP was even questioned why she chose to start a thread on that topic! Its a discussion forum FFS! And that was from a moderator.

Just to be clear G mods aren't immune from reported posts. If you think someone, mod or otherwise has overstepped the mark, is bullying or stifling debate report the post.


PS and as a personal aside I think the term "victim blaming" is all too often a lazy retort and sometimes even a cop out.

Princess Peach

Wibbs wrote: »

Just to be clear G mods aren't immune from reported posts. If you think someone, mod or otherwise has overstepped the mark, is bullying or stifling debate report the post.

I have a couple times wanted to report a mod for what I thought seemed bullying, but didn't because I assume if its in the forum they moderate they can see who reported the post?

Wibbs

Malari wrote: »

Yes, this is what I was trying to say I suppose. Sometimes the demand to back up your claim is just too trying. I know that you can't just spout any old thing as fact, but when it's just a harmless discussion and not a proper debate I think it would be ok to be a bit more tolerant. If someone comes in an says "I work in X area and I have experience of X and this is generally the way it is" it's just so confrontational when people come back with simply "source?".

Funny enough M I've found over the years that many areas of Boards have become much more tolerant re people making claims, both valid and hair brained. When I first joined I certainly read more "source/link or GTFO" being bandied about. There does seem to be more of the opinions dressed up as fact stuff going on. Much less so in this forum though. There are some forums I used to read and post in that I rarely venture into know unless I need a giggle.

I do take your point re the context. If it's a relatively light hearted thread none of us need a light shone in our eyes just for having an opinion.

Wibbs

Princess Peach wrote: »

I have a couple times wanted to report a mod for what I thought seemed bullying, but didn't because I assume if its in the forum they moderate they can see who reported the post?

True, however if a mod is having an off day, brainfart moment(I can be quite gassy myself) or just being a dick remember there are four other mods there to question it, never mind three cmods and any passing admin that takes an interest.

Miss Lockhart

I hardly ever post here for exactly this reason. However, I read the forum most days.

That said, I think that nearly all the forums on boards have a status quo and that certain opinions are accepted as the "right" ones no matter what the topic of the forum. I have seen this on forums as diverse as the pets forum, the cycling forum and the nutrition/health forum. I don't think it's unique to tLL.

The accepted opinions are usually the ones held by the most popular posters who are often very eloquent in expressing their ideas and are usually very good at picking apart other people's posts. That's the nature of debate I suppose.

Giselle

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

The accepted opinions are usually the ones held by the most popular posters who are often very eloquent in expressing their ideas and are usually very good at picking apart other people's posts. That's the nature of debate I suppose.

Well it could also be said that its not so much the nature of debate, but it stifles debate and discussion. Especially if the picking apart aspect is rather petty, as I think is sometimes the case.

Occasionally I've thought that a posters point has been picked apart for the sake of it, or to discourage them from posting again, but I hope I'm wrong about that.

Ectoplasm

I'm a little surprised by the direction this thread has gone in actually as I've always found tLL to be one of the least 'confrontational' message boards out there. I am more of a lazy poster than anything else...my low post count has nothing to do with being afraid to post or anything like it. More often than not, somebody else has posted something similar to my own stance and I just hit the thanks button!

I think sometimes people when they are challenged on what they have posted take it personally and see it as an 'attack' rather than just a challenge or a way for another poster to understand where they're coming from - and unfortunately when that happens, it's all to easy to dig the heels in and refuse to reconsider your position. I know I've reacted that way in the past. I'd also dispute the idea of 'popular' posters - I think regular is a far more accurate term.

Overall though, I'd hope that if anyone wants to post an opinion they do so. If everyone disagrees, well, either you can be persuaded to look at something in a new light or you can simply bask in the knowledge that you are right and the crazy internet people are clearly wrong.

If you looked around at your Friends, family, co workers, they would have all sorts of opinions on social issues... form very liberal to Conservative, to pick and mix depending on the situation or even no real opinion and would prefer to be talking about Jersey shore!, however in the LL one strand of opinion seem to be the "correct" one the opinion of the Left leaning very liberal, right on woman.

If the discussion is about women in Ireland in the past the "correct" one to have is that women were oppressed and repressed by a fascist woman hating male organization ( the catholic church ) which was aided and abetted by cruel class conscious nuns.

The second thing I notice is a lot of posters have obviously studied subjects like, English, sociology, classics, etc and are very good at the use of the English language and use their fluency with language to win their argument rather that the content of their post.

Having said that I think boards is brilliant and has given me many happy hours of browsing.

Wibbs

EMF2010 wrote: »

II think sometimes people when they are challenged on what they have posted take it personally and see it as an 'attack' rather than just a challenge or a way for another poster to understand where they're coming from - and unfortunately when that happens, it's all to easy to dig the heels in and refuse to reconsider your position. I know I've reacted that way in the past.

I'd agree with this in a lot of cases.

mariaalice wrote: »

If you looked around at your Friends, family, co workers, they would have all sorts of opinions on social issues... form very liberal to Conservative, to pick and mix depending on the situation or even no real opinion and would prefer to be talking about Jersey shore!, however in the LL one strand of opinion seem to be the "correct" one the opinion of the Left leaning very liberal, right on woman.

Yep there is sometimes an element of that alright. You see that across Boards in a few forums.

If the discussion is about women in Ireland in the past the "correct" one to have is that women were oppressed and repressed by a fascist woman hating male organization ( the catholic church ) which was aided and abetted by cruel class conscious nuns.

Don't get me started... There's certainly an element of "religion is daft mkay" to an almost adolescent rebellion level in folks well past that stage in life chronologically. The blanket blaming of the Catholic church while understandable also can reach daft proportions, where all our ills were "their" fault.

This is a common social thing I've noted. An element is marked out as the boogyman and all ills are humped upon it for the sake of the community as a way to explain and forgive itself. Hate to break it those who think that, but they, or their parents or their grandparents were said church. In Dublin alone a million people showed up to attend mass given by Pope John Paul George Ringo in the late 70's. It's not that long ago. It's also not to say that while said church had some very good influences it was also a scarily cancerous influence for the bad in this country for too long. We were the Catholic Taliban of Europe. This goes triple for the rights and freedoms of women*. Oh Jesus I've started...:eek::o:D

The second thing I notice is a lot of posters have obviously studied subjects like, English, sociology, classics, etc and are very good at the use of the English language and use their fluency with language to win their argument rather that the content of their post.

Well count me out there, I've barely a leaving cert.

Having said that I think boards is brilliant and has given me many happy hours of browsing.

Very much so, but sure it can always be improved for the sake of the various communities here. It's the how we do it is the thing, while keeping the community content.






*for a generation back in the day many many women studied to be or became nuns. I reckon because it was one of the few routes for women to get a further education and have some influence on the community.

Millicent

I haven't noticed this so now I'm afraid I'm one of those pushy posters. :pac: I have always thought TLL was one of the more respectful, friendly and open fora on Boards, even when I've had an opinion that went against the norm. However, given that I went into those threads where my opinion differed with the above opinion, maybe I just didn't notice some of the issues others have raised?

Lyaiera

I don't particularly like the basic assumption of this thread. That if I and a lot of other people agree with each other, and there's relatively little argument against what I and the others are saying, it's not because I'm correct about something it's because I'm manipulating people into agreeing with me. And the people who agree with me are only agreeing with me because they're incapable of arguing against me and simply want to fall into line. And that actually loads of people disagree with me but don't want to state their point because they'll be browbeaten by me and my herd of posting sheep. And that browbeating takes the form of me being knowledgable about a subject and literate enough to communicate my point.

I really think you're doing a disservice to a lot of people if you dismiss their attitudes as simply herd behaviour rather than affording them the respect to think they actually believe in what they're saying. I'd never say to someone that they don't have faith in their beliefs. I would discuss their views with them. If they couldn't back up their opinion I'd question why they hold them, but equally I'd like to think that if I couldn't justify one of my opinions I'd be brave enough to begin to question my holding of that belief.

newport2

Millicent wrote: »

I haven't noticed this so now I'm afraid I'm one of those pushy posters. :pac: I have always thought TLL was one of the more respectful, friendly and open fora on Boards, even when I've had an opinion that went against the norm. However, given that I went into those threads where my opinion differed with the above opinion, maybe I just didn't notice some of the issues others have raised?

I don't think so Millicent. My impression is that you make your views known but have always come across as open-minded to me, willing to take other peoples views on board.

Honey-ec

mariaalice wrote: »

The second thing I notice is a lot of posters have obviously studied subjects like, English, sociology, classics, etc and are very good at the use of the English language and use their fluency with language to win their argument rather that the content of their post.

Ah here, so, what, articulate posters should dumb down their posts so they don't inadvertently patronise people?

I've been on the receiving end of a bollocking in several threads due to having an "unpopular" opinion. Did it bother me? Not in the least. As someone has already said, life would be very dull if we all had the same opinions. And I'm kind of disgusted that posters are PMing eachother to express solidarity instead of dealing with issues on-thread. I just don't believe in going along to get along, if you've something to say, it should be said on-thread or not at all, imo. And I defintely think that some people are too quick to see posts disagreeing with their opinions as personal attacks.

At the end of the day, it's just the internet.

dearg lady

Honey-ec wrote: »

Ah here, so, what, articulate posters should dumb down their posts so they don't inadvertently patronise people?

I've been on the receiving end of a bollocking in several threads due to having an "unpopular" opinion. Did it bother me? Not in the least. As someone has already said, life would be very dull if we all had the same opinions. And I'm kind of disgusted that posters are PMing eachother to express solidarity instead of dealing with issues on-thread. I just don't believe in going along to get along, if you've something to say, it should be said on-thread or not at all, imo. And I defintely think that some people are too quick to see posts disagreeing with their opinions as personal attacks.

At the end of the day, it's just the internet.

I think I might know what mariaalice is referring to, and I don't think she's suggesting anyone should dumb down their posts!
I'm really not great at articulating myself and getting my point across clearly and have on occasion had people angrily reply to my comments, refuting everything I've said, and then a few pages later, the same poster agreeing with someone who's making the same point as me. I take personal responsibility for this, it's a weakness of my writing skills. However it does put me off replying sometimes, I kinda figure, ah sure someone else will come along and make the point much more eloquently!
When you're backed into a corner and being shouted down on a thread, and then on top of that people start to pick apart how you've constructed your reply, it can get frustrating.
I do really admire some of the posters though, they write so beautifully, I wish I could do that!

Honey-ec

Ah ok, I get you now.

I love every ones opinion and I have never been put off posting anything I wanted to say although it dose get a bit wearisome trying to explain a point over an over and over again...people can tell the difference between someone who is making a reasoned response to what you have posted and the someone who is defensive and annoyed in their reply to what you have posted. I think the LL is great and the stickys are brilliant and have probably helped many women particularly teenage.

Off course I do not think people should dumdown their posts its about people using their fluency with the English language to dismiss other points of view and to miss interpreted what other posters are trying to say.

Its not about having a different opinion its about how you articulat your different opinion that count.

The Big Red Button

Do I think that TLL is an accurate representation of the opinions of Irish women?

No, I don't. This topic has come up in After Hours before, and the general consensus seems to be that the subsect of society which is drawn to websites such as Boards is probably not a fair reflection of general society. The people who post on Boards tend to be, for the most part, vocal and opinionated. They tend to be thinkers, and are generally well-informed in their views. So, just as an example, I've encountered quite a few self-proclaimed feminists in The Ladies Lounge - proportionally more than I've encountered in real life - perhaps partly because they are drawn to a site like this, where it is acceptable to voice their views.

As for my own contributions to this forum and others ... I think that pretty much anything I post is a fair reflection of myself; of what I'd say in a comparable real life discussion. It would have to be; I'm not exactly anonymous on here. My opinions mightn't always be popular, and I'm the first to acknowledge that I mightn't always be right. I will always read and consider contributions from other posters with an open mind.

If I ever decide not to post in a thread where I have a decided opinion about the subject under discussion, it would usually be because I know I won't have the time to read any replies to my posts and to respond to them. I can't say I've ever decided not to post out of fear of my opinion being unpopular. I don't know if there are cliques on Boards; if there are, well I'm sure as hell not in any of them! If my opinion is unpopular - meah, so be it, I'm sure as hell not going to lose a wink of sleep over it.

Catari Jaguar

I think TLL does a pretty good job in showing two sides of women, one that crops up a lot is generic "girlie" stuff or relationships i.e. a few threads lately about where you met your partner, what they're allowed to do, cheating etc etc.. and the other side is about gender equality & treatment of women.

I could be wrong here, but suspect that the majority TLL users are pro womens rights and many are very educated/ passionate about gender issues. Now there is a huge overlap between the topics/ poster types, which may lead some posters to think they are being brushed aside, or that conversation is going OT. It might not be the pink, fluffy norm response of a staff room or girls night out to air these views as they can be controversial.

I personally enjoy the grittier, ballsier topic debates and it makes me quite excited for the future of women, as I see a lot of them thinking in open minded ways. I have huge respect for many posters and have my eyes opened on a daily basis. Painful as it is, many women just don't have the opportunity to express these views or would be shot down (maybe more so in a male dominated setting?). Ah well, in an ideal world...

Madam_X

I dunno. I'd say it probably happens sometimes all right across online communities. In that case: if you've enough of a supporting argument to fight your corner, use it. Feck people ganging up on you/too scared to support you.

Same time though, this thing of "people who don't agree with the general consensus get shot down because they don't agree" is lazy. Saw an example of it on the wedding thread. "Poor me, they're out to get me" stuff and "They're all friends and a clique" instead of considering maybe, just maybe, it was because the way they expressed their view came across very hostile and sneering. Much more to it than simply disagreeing - an accusation I've noticed thrown out a fair bit on this site by people suffering from butt-hurt due to well-backed up criticism of their own flimsily supported, often meanspirited posts.
If people just said "Get lost, you're going against the grain, therefore you don't belong here" fair enough. But they don't - they usually give well thought out explanations. I'm not saying it can't happen, bit it isn't always a case of nasty victimising.