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A different type of Soarview question

  • 30-07-2012 4:45pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭


    I don't think that this particular question has been addressed - at least I can't find it in the multitude of Saorview threads. Apologies if it has been answered.

    My (limited :D) understanding of Saorview is that it is essentially an MPEG4 system with MHEG5 add-ons like EPG etc etc.

    I'm not concerned with MHEG5 or other digital services at all but is there any chance that RTE may issue a "Patch" that will render Saorview reception on all the Ariva boxes, MPEG4 TVs etc useless?

    Again, I'm just referring only to the actual audio/video reception.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,031 ✭✭✭zg3409


    Well yes. They could launch "red button" channels or other advanced hidden options or features that non approved TVs and receivers cannot readily display. Therefore it is important at least one TV (preferably the main TV) has an approved Saorview box/tuner so it can always get everything.

    The main channels will probably display fine but if say "the snooker" etc. was red button and you wanted to watch it, then it would be mighty annoying.

    Series link recording may or may not work on various non approved boxes. We will not know for sure until series link is properly launched.

    Similar is true for FreeSAT so I would recommend at least one FreeSAT HD box.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭JRH


    cant think why they would do so ...
    non approved is now endemic and part of the saor view landscape


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Audio encoding might change at any time, and if the non-approved boxes cannot handle it then that is not the concern of RTÉ or RTNL ......

    Saorview approval guarantees future compatibility with the broadcast ....... if you buy something else then you take your chances ....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Gerry Wicklow


    JRH wrote: »
    cant think why they would do so ...
    non approved is now endemic and part of the saor view landscape

    So are MPEG2 TVs. What's RTÉs attitude to them? "Tough" :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 142 ✭✭JRH


    So are MPEG2 TVs. What's RTÉs attitude to them? "Tough" :rolleyes:

    yeah .. but that was mostly early pre launch dabblers ..


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭Peter Rhea


    The Freeview 'red button' streams can be accessed by non-MHEG5 receivers just like with FTA satellite receivers.

    It's fine to recommend Saorview approved to the clueless to keep things simple, but I can't see the point in trying to create an irrational dread, as if the Saorview approved boxes are in some way fundamentally different than the generic receivers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    zg3409 wrote: »
    Well yes. They could launch "red button" channels or other advanced hidden options or features that non approved TVs and receivers cannot readily display. Therefore it is important at least one TV (preferably the main TV) has an approved Saorview box/tuner so it can always get everything.

    The main channels will probably display fine but if say "the snooker" etc. was red button and you wanted to watch it, then it would be mighty annoying.

    Series link recording may or may not work on various non approved boxes. We will not know for sure until series link is properly launched.

    Just a few clarifications.

    Red Button Services. Saorview do not use any and have no plans to. They only operate an MHEG based teletext service.

    Even if they did the way red button services work is like "hyperlinkling". Links to a stream. Once the service is broadcast on the Multiplex, any MPEG4 H264 DVB device (TV/non approved box) will pick up the stream anyway.

    You do not use red button services anyhow when you only have a handful of channels. There will eventually be 2 Muxes come October. At 24megs per mux that limits the number of channels.

    Nothing will be hidden as there is nothing to hide. The only thing the "cheap" combo boxes will not do is the new MHEG5 based text service but for many that is not an issue as Aertel does work on these boxes. Many can live with or without the advertising based teletext service anyhow.

    Series link will not work on the current approved Saorview boxes. This will only be implemented on Dual Tuner boxes. No series link data is being broadcast but will most likely be implemented using content identity reference descriptors which are broadcast in the EIT which DVB devices will decipher.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,851 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    STB wrote: »
    There will eventually be 2 Muxes come October. At 24megs per mux that limits the number of channels.

    Has this been officially confirmed?

    The reason I ask is Saorview have commented over on Facebook that even though the second mux is ready they don't expect any new channels to launch until early next year.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I'd worry about the audio on some non approved boxes. RTE should transmit .ac3 on some channel or other to catch the cowboys out..bit like they transmit mpeg2 video on RTE1+1


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    The Cush wrote: »
    Has this been officially confirmed?

    The reason I ask is Saorview have commented over on Facebook that even though the second mux is ready they don't expect any new channels to launch until early next year.

    I know you know the answer Cush. The gear is in place. But the dragging heals is all subject to Service Provider Contracts negotiations being agreed. The usual nobody wants to pay stuff I would imagine.

    Any more HD means the second mux. There is no space on the 1st Mux for anything else. You can already see the effect the stat mux is having on the quality of the SD channels when a match is on. 1250KB/s vs 250KB/s.

    TG4 are ready to go - 30th September by all accounts. Tv3 are apparently in a similar position (5m on studios if you believe that). I am sure if they have something to announce it will be at Tv3's Autumn launch in 3 weeks time.

    Either way the gun will be put to the head if Tg4HD (the state sponsored Tv service) is only available in HD on a pay only operators network widely reported for 30th September.
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I'd worry about the audio on some non approved boxes. RTE should transmit .ac3 on some channel or other to catch the cowboys out..bit like they transmit mpeg2 video on RTE1+1

    All the latest chipsets allow for E-AC3 (which is in Saorview Spec) and HE-AAC which are in combo boxes etc.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭Peter Rhea


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    ..bit like they transmit mpeg2 video on RTE1+1

    Do they indeed?

    Are you thinking of this thread? Maybe you should look at post #12.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,851 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Peter Rhea wrote: »
    Are you thinking of this thread? Maybe you should look at post #12.

    Regarding my post (#2) in that thread, I know the video is MPEG-4 but can anyone confirm the service type for RTÉ1+1 from the data stream?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,851 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    STB wrote: »
    I know you know the answer Cush. The gear is in place. But the dragging heals is all subject to Service Provider Contracts negotiations being agreed. The usual nobody wants to pay stuff I would imagine.

    So it looks like next year then.
    STB wrote: »
    TG4 are ready to go - 30th September by all accounts. Tv3 are apparently in a similar position (5m on studios if you believe that). I am sure if they have something to announce it will be at Tv3's Autumn launch in 3 weeks time.

    Either way the gun will be put to the head if Tg4HD (the state sponsored Tv service) is only available in HD on a pay only operators network widely reported for 30th September.

    They also said in the series of facebook comments that it would be unlikely to launch the second mux with just 1 channel considering there had been no official announcement regarding TG4-HD.

    Regarding TV3-HD, read somewhere recently that the new HD studio wouldn't be ready until the end of the year.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭Jpmarn


    I think Mux 2 will facilitate existing channels going HD rather than launching new channels. I prefer quality over quantity.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,851 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Jpmarn wrote: »
    I think Mux 2 will facilitate existing channels going HD rather than launching new channels. I prefer quality over quantity.

    Until the issue of how the second mux costs (Mux Tariff) is to be calculated neither TV3 nor TG4 will be in any rush launching in HD.

    The spare capacity on Mux 2 was advertised last year and the latest information on new channels was posted here yesterday - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79981903&postcount=1977


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The only thing the "cheap" combo boxes will not do is the new MHEG5 based text service but for many that is not an issue as Aertel does work on these boxes

    The EBU type legacy Teletext will not be maintained long past ASO.

    RTE told me they do have plans for other MHEG5 applications. MHEG5 is not limited to doing an EPG (which add a single look & feel and use the standard DVB epg as data, and RTE are considering) or pointless red button menu to video streams (which is simply a way of saving on EPG placement charges in many cases).

    MHEG5 is a mandatory part of the spec. Just as much as MPEG4, HD, Downscalling HD to SD Scart and AAC for ordinary radio and TV sound, not just surround.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭podge3


    Thanks for all the replies, lads, although I must admit that I'm now more worried than before I asked the question :eek:

    First off, I didn't know that RTE+1 was transmitted in MPEG2 but I suppose most non SV boxes are MPEG2 compatible anyway.

    I'd love to know what percentage of TVs/STB are actually SV approved - I reckon not that many. RTE would draw the wrath of the country on itself if it did do something that would render the non approved stuff useless.

    This FAQ only mentions MPEG4 as a requirement, no mention of audio. It does, of course, say to buy a Saorview box.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Ronnie Raygun


    podge3 wrote: »
    I didn't know that RTE+1 was transmitted in MPEG2

    It isn't, although the receivers would work fine with it, as they do with UK Freeview SD channels.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,855 ✭✭✭Apogee


    podge3 wrote: »
    First off, I didn't know that RTE+1 was transmitted in MPEG2 but I suppose most non SV boxes are MPEG2 compatible anyway.

    All of the Saorview TV channels, including RTÉ1+1, are transmitted in MPEG4.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    podge3 wrote: »
    Thanks for all the replies, lads, although I must admit that I'm now more worried than before I asked the question :eek:

    First off, I didn't know that RTE+1 was transmitted in MPEG2 but I suppose most non SV boxes are MPEG2 compatible anyway.

    I'd love to know what percentage of TVs/STB are actually SV approved - I reckon not that many. RTE would draw the wrath of the country on itself if it did do something that would render the non approved stuff useless.

    This FAQ only mentions MPEG4 as a requirement, no mention of audio. It does, of course, say to buy a Saorview box.

    All Saorview channels are MPEG4

    The FULL spec is known .... that includes allowances for anything that might change in the future including any extra services that might appear.

    I would be happy to buy a STB that complied FULLY with the published spec ...... the only devices I am aware of in that category are 'Saorview Approved'.

    I would compare the use of indoor aerials with the use of non-approved STBs ........ yes they might work ...... might even stay working for a long time ....... but some change to the broadcast system might render them useless ..... and if RTÉ have advised people to get outdoor aerials and approved STBs, who do you think the fault lies with if/when things change?

    Heed the advice given or accept the consequences.

    BTW, I use an unapproved STB ..... I am very happy with it as it is a combi unit and suits my needs ===> presently.

    I expect it to become unsuitable in a year or so ..... but I bought it with that in mind.

    I won't be blaming RTÉ if they make changes, within the published spec, for my choices.

    It would be idiotic to do so!

    From your link to FAQs
    Why Does RTÉNL Only Recommend SAORVIEW Approved Receivers?
    There are 1000s of different digital receivers out there on the market, integrated Digital
    Televisions (iDTVs) and Set-Top-Boxes (STBs), computer TV cards. Some unknown
    makes and models may work fine and some big brand models may not.
    RTÉNL recommends the use of SAORVIEW approved receivers as these are the only
    receivers that have been independently tested for compliance against the SAORVIEW
    minimum receiver requirement specification.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Ronnie Raygun


    BTW, I use an unapproved STB ..... I am very happy with it as it is a combi unit and suits my needs ===> presently.

    I expect it to become unsuitable in a year or so .....

    Unsuitable for your needs or RTE's?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Unsuitable for your needs or RTE's?


    Possibly both ...... depending on what changes or additions RTÉ make that I might wish to access and whether the present box can handle them.

    The present STB does not do MHEG5 and I have no idea what else might come down the pipe.

    Some unapproved STBs might not be able to follow changes in transmission that are within the spec ... for instance change in audio codec or such.

    Either way it is a decision I made to buy something not approved and not capable of providing access to everything in the published spec.

    It is my decision and RTÉ have no responsibility for it ..... and that was my main point in response to the other poster. ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭podge3


    Apogee wrote: »
    All of the Saorview TV channels, including RTÉ1+1, are transmitted in MPEG4.
    So the posters who said that RTE+1 is on MPEG 2 are wrong? :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Ronnie Raygun


    podge3 wrote: »
    So the posters who said that RTE+1 is on MPEG 2 are wrong? :confused:

    It was 1 poster & he is wrong. Who'd have thought you'd find incorrect information posted on an internet forum? :p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,776 ✭✭✭podge3


    It was 1 poster & he is wrong. Who'd have thought you'd find incorrect information posted on an internet forum? :p
    :D - it did kinda surprise me but I know everyone is correct on the interweb :pac:

    I done a little more reading and as best I can tell and IMHO, its unlikely that MPEG4 boxes/TVs will cease to show picture + sound for the foreseeable future. Other services probably won't work but that has been well documented.

    Thanks again to all posters who shared their opinion and (correct )information.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    Whats with all the scaremongering on HD Combo boxes lately ?

    ALL the latest combo boxes have HE-AAC and AC3+ capabilities. This is defined in the chips capabilities.

    The only thing these boxes wont do is MHEG5.

    Infact a lot of the latest HD combo boxes are based on the M3606 chipset which allow for CI+ which in turn packages the MHEG5 software as standard with the module. The NXP boxes have it as standard.

    20100805_HA_AVC_TS_42F1.JPG

    And I dont know where these stories of MHEG5 based EPG/Red Button interactivity is coming from. It is highly unlikely, RTE have 6 stations! There is no commercial mux. Regardless the DVB-EIT will be broadcast and will fill the epg tables on the boxes. Also MHEG5 is only hyperlinking for streams that are openly broadcast. You don't need a mapped red button to tune the service. Its visible in the Mux.

    Finally I have heard of no announcement about turning off the Aertel EBU text.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,568 ✭✭✭Gerry Wicklow


    STB wrote: »
    .....

    Finally I have heard of no announcement about turning off the Aertel EBU text.

    This might be the source of the confusion. You could read it several ways. :confused:
    http://www.rte.ie/aertel/169-01.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    This might be the source of the confusion. You could read it several ways. :confused:
    http://www.rte.ie/aertel/169-01.html

    It does seem to refer to the content of the web site (RTE.ie) and not the broadcast ..... but does it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    It does seem to refer to the content of the web site (RTE.ie) and not the broadcast ..... but does it?

    Just to add to the confusion.... I had posted this before.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/aertel-to-survive-tv-changeover-3126809.html

    The Cush had picked up on the word "evolve". It is highly likely that the EBU Text currently carried on the Mux might be discontinued, but I did wonder given how small an amount of space it takes up in addition to the MHEG5 data carousel, how committed RTE would be to dropping it, given they know that not everyone is using Saorview approved equipment, especially those with working IDTVs that arent fully compliant on the MHEG side.

    What Gerry has posted does seem to be fairly clear in my view given what hasn't been said in the past. Its just a pity they are referring to it using the word Analogue.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    CI+ means MHEG5


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    watty wrote: »
    CI+ means MHEG5

    ...packaged as standard, but only if a CI+ module is onboard. Some of the chipsets (like the ALI m3606 on the fergusons/amikos etc) would have to have included a CI+ module rather than a CI one for the software to be included in the stb. AFAIK they have only installed CI slots.

    The NXP8735 Combo STBs (OEM is Sowell) will start appearing and they come with CI+ modules as standard.

    215337.jpg

    CI+ is mainly about keeping sky happy though....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,048 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    STB wrote: »
    Just to add to the confusion.... I had posted this before.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/aertel-to-survive-tv-changeover-3126809.html

    The Cush had picked up on the word "evolve". It is highly likely that the EBU Text currently carried on the Mux might be discontinued, but I did wonder given how small an amount of space it takes up in addition to the MHEG5 data carousel, how committed RTE would be to dropping it, given they know that not everyone is using Saorview approved equipment, especially those with working IDTVs that arent fully compliant on the MHEG side.

    What Gerry has posted does seem to be fairly clear in my view given what hasn't been said in the past. Its just a pity they are referring to it using the word Analogue.

    That would appear to say that the "Analogue" will evolve into "Digital" for teletext services ..... which to me means that the EBU text we currently receive will be dropped in time, but maybe not immediately on ASO.


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