The Gay Megathread (see mod note on post #2212)

philologos

lazygal wrote: »

I long for people to stop being so obsessed about how adults express their love and for whom. I long for a secular society where faith is a personal thing. I've been purposed in life to promote secularism and tolerance, nothing is more important than people repenting for the their bigotry and hatred and rejecting the out of date teachings of a 2,000 year old book. The point of secularism in a nutshell is that religion is a private matter but the civil, public sphere holds no truck with discrimination based on superstition.

I long for all people to realise they don't need to be worrying about what happens after death, better to live a good and tolerant life here and now.

How wrong you are about me!

You have a real knack at ignoring peoples posts.

Disagreement on this issue isn't hatred. Much as disagreement on many other issues isn't hatred.

Carry on throwing the toys out of the pram if you want though.

Benny_Cake

I've had to remove a number of posts. Obviously people are going to disagree with each other on this thread, but they should do so like adults. Childish remarks or goading other posters is unacceptable.

lazygal

philologos wrote: »

You have a real knack at ignoring peoples posts.

Disagreement on this issue isn't hatred. Much as disagreement on many other issues isn't hatred.

Carry on throwing the toys out of the pram if you want though.

I haven't thrown any toys out of any pram. I'm in favour of tolerance and secularism. If people want to lobby for anti gay laws because of what their faith tells them, they are free to do so. But I won't stand for the passing of such laws in the name of 'religious' tolerance. I have no tolerance for State or civil bigotry that's a result of religious practice or belief.

SoulandForm

philologos wrote: »

Any reasonable people should strongly oppose that law. Although I strongly disagree on redefining marriage, I also strongly disagree with draconian laws like this.

The law isnt against homosexuality, its against the promotion of homosexuality which is something different. Do you consider the laws forbidding the advertising of ciggerettes draconian?

SoulandForm

lazygal wrote: »

I haven't thrown any toys out of any pram. I'm in favour of tolerance and secularism. If people want to lobby for anti gay laws because of what their faith tells them, they are free to do so. But I won't stand for the passing of such laws in the name of 'religious' tolerance. I have no tolerance for State or civil bigotry that's a result of religious practice or belief.

The last state that claimed to be a Christian state was Franco's Spain (not something Im a fan of). No one here is advocating a Confessional state. The Russian Federation is not a Confessional state. Plenty of non and even anti-Christian governments have laws against homosexuality or its promotion- Cuba comes to mind. Its not only Christians and Muslims who are opposed to homosexuality- the vast majority of Buddhists are as well.

Bannasidhe

SoulandForm wrote: »

The last state that claimed to be a Christian state was Franco's Spain (not something Im a fan of). No one here is advocating a Confessional state. The Russian Federation is not a Confessional state. Plenty of non and even anti-Christian governments have laws against homosexuality or its promotion- Cuba comes to mind. Its not only Christians and Muslims who are opposed to homosexuality- the vast majority of Buddhists are as well.

Here we go again.
It has been demonstrated time and time again that not all Christians are against homosexuality.

I can also provide evidence that not all Muslims are.

As for ' the vast majority of Buddhists are as well' - where is your evidence for this statement?

SoulandForm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Here we go again.
It has been demonstrated time and time again that not all Christians are against homosexuality.

I can also provide evidence that not all Muslims are.

As for ' the vast majority of Buddhists are as well' - where is your evidence for this statement?

In the Vinaya the Buddha states that those who were effeminate or have strong homosexual desires and actions may not become a monk. Just having homosexual desires eliminates the person from the possibility of being a Buddhist monk. Homosexuality is illegal in most and certainly not tolerated socially in any traditionally Buddhist countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_sexual_orientation

Small groups of theological liberal Protestants do not represent in anyway the vast bulk of Christians in the world- they reflect instead the society around them.

pauldla

SoulandForm wrote: »

The last state that claimed to be a Christian state was Franco's Spain (not something Im a fan of). No one here is advocating a Confessional state. The Russian Federation is not a Confessional state. Plenty of non and even anti-Christian governments have laws against homosexuality or its promotion- Cuba comes to mind. Its not only Christians and Muslims who are opposed to homosexuality- the vast majority of Buddhists are as well.

Even if all this were true - and I'd like to see some numbers - I have to ask, what of it? Is this not just an appeal to numbers?

SoulandForm

pauldla wrote: »

Even if all this were true - and I'd like to see some numbers - I have to ask, what of it? Is this not just an appeal to numbers?

Its an appeal to human nature.

Its part of our nature as humans to be disgusted by homosexuality.

lazygal

SoulandForm wrote: »

Its part of our nature as humans to be disgusted by homosexuality.

[Citation needed]

pauldla

SoulandForm wrote: »

Its an appeal to human nature.

Its part of our nature as humans to be disgusted by homosexuality.

:eek:

It's my nature not to care what two consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their bedroom. I'd call that being human.

28064212

SoulandForm wrote: »

Its an appeal to human nature.

Its part of our nature as humans to be disgusted by homosexuality.

You mean apart from the 2% to 10% of humans who are actually homosexual? Not to mention the huge amount of people who have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever?

Bannasidhe

SoulandForm wrote: »

In the Vinaya the Buddha states that those who were effeminate or have strong homosexual desires and actions may not become a monk. Just having homosexual desires eliminates the person from the possibility of being a Buddhist monk. Homosexuality is illegal in most and certainly not tolerated socially in any traditionally Buddhist countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_sexual_orientation

Roman Catholicism forbids it's monks (indeed all it's clergy) from engaging in sex or becoming parents - is the RCC therefore against parenting?

You may wish to have a read of this before pontificating on Buddhist beliefs http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_budd0.htm

Here is a highlight

Apparently, the Buddha did not leave any specific teachings on either homosexual orientation or homosexual behavior. He strongly encouraged his followers to be independent, to "be a lamp onto yourself." That is, to examine and test the truth of religious teachings before accepting them.

Buddhism is most concerned with whether an action is helpful, based on good intentions, and free from harm. Thus, a specific activity can often be either permissible or not permissible, depending upon its context. This differs from the positions taken by most conservative faith groups within Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, etc. They often evaluate a specific sexual activity itself, and decide whether it is good or evil according to a system of morality derived from that group's interpretation of their holy text(s). Often the nature of the relationship is not considered.

Many women, gays and lesbians have been attracted to Buddhism because of its relative lack of misogyny, homophobia and transphobia, when compared to some other religions. But others report "virulently anti-gay sentiments and teachings from religious teachers in Tibetan and other Buddhist" schools.

So, no consensus among Buddhists either...

Small groups of theological liberal Protestants do not represent in anyway the vast bulk of Christians in the world- they reflect instead the society around them.

Ah yes, the 'they are not real Christians' argument - haven't heard that for a few pages.

eviltwin

SoulandForm wrote: »

Its an appeal to human nature.

Its part of our nature as humans to be disgusted by homosexuality.

Don't tar humanity with your very bigoted brush. I certainly have no issue with homosexuality at all, I don't know anyone who is "disgusted" by it as you say. Its clear from threads here that your views are thankfully very much in the minority.

Delirium

SoulandForm wrote: »

Its an appeal to human nature.

Its part of our nature as humans to be I'm disgusted by homosexuality.

FYP

seeing are plenty of people who aren't disgusted by homosexuality, your opinion that it's part of human nature doesn't hold true.

lazygal

pauldla wrote: »

:eek:

It's my nature not to care what two consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their bedroom. I'd call that being human.

There's a brilliant clip of the Late, Late Show from just before homosexuality was decriminalised. Some Catholic man was on being interviewed about his thoughts on it and Gay(!) Byrne asked him why he was so concerned about the effects of the law changing. The man said something like 'It's not natural to be obsessed with a man's back passage', to which Gay replied 'Is it natural to be obsessed with a women's front passage?". I wish I could find the clip, the look of horror on the man's face as he was asked about that was priceless.

NuMarvel

philologos wrote: »

I don't believe society is becoming more tolerant rather it is becoming less so in respect to those who hold to traditional marriage as being distinct from civil unions.

I disagree. Most people have no problem with a faith saying that x,y, or z is their definition of marriage and that practitioners of that faith must adhere to that definition.

What you view as intolerance is the growing resistance to any particular faith's definition being the sole template for civil, non-religious, marriage without some rational and logical reasoning. Or as the man of the hour (Barry O'Bama) once said:

"Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns in to universal, rather than religion-specific, values... it requires that their proposals be subject to argument and amenable to reason."

So, basically, someone saying that marriage in a Christian context is a man and woman for life will get no disagreement from me. But someone trying to apply that template in a wider context without non-religion reasoning is going to be challenged.

SoulandForm wrote: »

The law isnt against homosexuality, its against the promotion of homosexuality which is something different. Do you consider the laws forbidding the advertising of ciggerettes draconian?

The laws concerning the advertising of cigarettes has sound, rational, scientific reasoning behind them.

Your opinion is based on some outdated stereotype and has no basis in reality.

SoulandForm

NuMarvel wrote: »

The laws concerning the advertising of cigarettes has sound, rational, scientific reasoning behind them.

Your opinion is based on some outdated stereotype and has no basis in reality.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/drug-use-seven-times-higher-among-gays-8165971.html

Take the blind fold from your eyes.

SoulandForm

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2011/higher-risk-of-mental-health-problems-for-homosexuals/

"Gay liberation" has caused a lot more misery than the so-called "closet" ever did. Making their deviation socially acceptable and telling them that its okay actually harms people involved in homosexual acts.

28064212

SoulandForm wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/drug-use-seven-times-higher-among-gays-8165971.html

Take the blind fold from your eyes.

Being born in Ireland means you're going to drink a lot more alcohol than people in many other countries
Drinking alcohol is bad for your health
∴ Irishness should be outlawed ∎

Or you could realise that correlation does not equal causation

SoulandForm wrote: »

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2011/higher-risk-of-mental-health-problems-for-homosexuals/

"Gay liberation" has caused a lot more misery than the so-called "closet" ever did. Making their deviation socially acceptable and telling them that its okay actually harms people involved in homosexual acts.

Really? What were the mental health levels like in homosexuals before it was legalised? What are the mental health levels of homosexuals in places where it is still illegal?

SoulandForm

28064212 wrote: »

Really? What were the mental health levels like in homosexuals before it was legalised? What are the mental health levels of homosexuals in places where it is still illegal?

Over all mental illness levels are a lot lower and recovery quicker in the so-called third world (where homosexuality is generally illegal) because of stronger community ties. I dont believe the percentage of people involved in homosexual acts or who lust after them is something static.

Links234

SoulandForm wrote: »

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2011/higher-risk-of-mental-health-problems-for-homosexuals/

"Gay liberation" has caused a lot more misery than the so-called "closet" ever did. Making their deviation socially acceptable and telling them that its okay actually harms people involved in homosexual acts.

Did you even read what you just linked to?

Discrimination may contribute to the higher risk, believes lead researcher Dr. Apu Chakraborty of University College London, UK.

This “lends support to the idea that people who feel discriminated against experience social stressors, which in turn increases their risk of experiencing mental health problems,” he says.

“Discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation predicted certain neurotic disorder outcomes, even after adjustment for potentially confounding variables.”

Shock horror, discrimination negatively impacts upon people's mental well being! Maybe if parents didn't throw little Timmy into the streets as a teen for being gay, he might fare a lot better?

28064212

SoulandForm wrote: »

Over all mental illness levels are a lot lower and recovery quicker in the so-called third world (where homosexuality is generally illegal) because of stronger community ties. I dont believe the percentage of people involved in homosexual acts or who lust after them is something static.

So nothing to do with the fact that mental health services are virtually non-existent, and diagnoses tend to be limited to "crazy" or "not crazy"?

SoulandForm

28064212 wrote: »

So nothing to do with the fact that mental health services are virtually non-existent, and diagnoses tend to be limited to "crazy" or "not crazy"?

I dont think you have ever traveled outside of western europe mate.

SoulandForm

Links234 wrote: »

Shock horror, discrimination negatively impacts upon people's mental well being! Maybe if parents didn't throw little Timmy into the streets as a teen for being gay, he might fare a lot better?

I read the link. The fact is that homosexuality is socially acceptable now and unfortunately there isnt social pressure to help people suppress perverted desires. However the fact that engaging in these unnatural acts causes mental illness in itself is not going to be admitted so people have to come up with nonsense like that.

28064212

SoulandForm wrote: »

I dont think you have ever traveled outside of western europe mate.

I know for a fact you've never left your village. Do I win the argument now? Are personal anecdotes somehow relevant to the discussion?

Are you seriously claiming that 3rd world mental health services are in any way comparable to 1st world ones?

SoulandForm wrote: »

the fact that engaging in these unnatural acts causes mental illness in itself

[citation needed]

L.Jenkins

So let me get this straight (excuse the pun), homosexuality causes mental illness?

Delirium

SoulandForm wrote: »

Over all mental illness levels are a lot lower and recovery quicker in the so-called third world (where homosexuality is generally illegal) because of stronger community ties. I dont believe the percentage of people involved in homosexual acts or who lust after them is something static.

That's interesting considering that the World Health Organisation said the following in 2008:

More than 75% of people suffering from mental disorders in the developing world receive no treatment or care. A new WHO programme launched today, on World Mental Health Day 2008 highlights the huge treatment gap for a number of mental, neurological and substance use disorders. Across Africa for example, nine out of ten people suffering from epilepsy go untreated, unable to access simple and inexpensive anticonvulsant drugs which cost less than US$5 a year per person.

Source

Penn

SoulandForm wrote: »

However the fact that engaging in these unnatural acts causes mental illness in itself is not going to be admitted so people have to come up with nonsense like that.

Ironic.

Links234

SoulandForm wrote: »

I read the link.

I don't believe you did, because it's certainly not saying what you seem to think it's saying.

SoulandForm wrote: »

However the fact that engaging in these unnatural acts causes mental illness in itself is not going to be admitted so people have to come up with nonsense like that.

Ok...

Explain to me exactly how engaging in sexual activity with a member of the same sex contributes to mental health issues.

Then, explain to me how epidemic levels of LGBT teen homelessness* does not contribute to mental health issues.

Citation, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force: Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender youth: An epidemic of homelessness

Of the estimated 1.6 million homeless American youth, between 20 and 40 percent identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT).
Why do LGBT youth become homeless? In one study, 26 percent of gay teens who came out to their parents/guardians were told they must leave home; LGBT youth also leave home due to physical, sexual and emotional abuse. Homeless LGBT youth are more likely to: use drugs, participate in sex work, and attempt suicide. Also, LGBT youth report they are threatened, belittled and abused at shelters by staff as well as other residents.

So, please explain how the above doesn't contribute to mental health issues, but that same sex sexual activity does. Can you do that?