Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

Turtwig

Sappa wrote: »

Actually your way off the mark,as you say were not in the same galaxy and thankfully not as your smug condescending approach to my opinions are a highly undesirable attribute/flaw in character that I would not like to associate with.
Ohh to answer your diet query,stick to one that is rich in omega 3.6 and 9s,plenty of fish,protein followed by a balanced source of fresh veg and not too many carbs.
Go easy on the dairy,eliminate processed foods and this should help you address the excess weight.

Okays, then apologies for getting it so wrong. I'd be ever so grateful if you helped me to address my misconceptions. That way I'd understand your opinion better.

As for diet, well, we shall return to that later. I'd first like to actually understand what it is you believe.:)

Sappa

I think a big fear that most people have is that given all the recent kiddy fiddling scandals they tend to have homosexual roots be it the ordained orders or secret paedo rings operating without prosecution.
The public sees this as a risk to the child if he is in the sole company of same sexed parents,men more than women.

doctoremma

Sappa wrote: »

One was a female who actually had a decent upbringing but yearned for a mother figure to discuss womens and teen girls problems.

A lot of what I learned about boys (or girls), periods and boobs came from my female friends. There was nothing my Mum gave me (at that time - she's a very good friend now!) that I couldn't have gained from friends, a sister, a grandmother, an aunty or a sympathetic female teacher. Not saying my Mum wasn't fab, just that I don't think she had sole (or even primary) teaching responsibilities in this area - in fact, I remember having period conversations with my Dad!

It's likely that a homosexual couple (just like a heterosexual couple) will recognise a desire to have a variety of confidantes and role models around. That your friend didn't have any is sad, but not the fault of same-sex adoption laws (in my opinion).

Sappa wrote: »

The second was a guy who had a horrendous time at middle school and high school.constant bullying and fag joked etc.
He didn't have a good a experience and said for the most part he just wanted a normal family.

If the child of a gay couple is getting bullied at school, then, quite frankly, the problem is with the other parents.

Sonics2k

Sappa wrote: »

I think a big fear that most people have is that given all the recent kiddy fiddling scandals they tend to have homosexual roots be it the ordained orders or secret paedo rings operating without prosecution.
The public sees this as a risk to the child if he is in the sole company of same sexed parents,men more than women.

See, now you're just showing the most basic ignorance.

Pedophilia =/= Homosexuality. As in, they're not even slightly related.

magicbastarder

why do people bother arguing with saps like this online?
i've got a spare wall going you can bash your head against if you prefer.

doctoremma

Sappa wrote: »

I think a big fear that most people have is that given all the recent kiddy fiddling scandals they tend to have homosexual roots be it the ordained orders or secret paedo rings operating without prosecution.
The public sees this as a risk to the child if he is in the sole company of same sexed parents,men more than women.

We have had far too many pedo-ring scandals in the UK recently. Each and every one makes big news, accompanied by much hand wringing about how to address the issue.

All of them have been perpetrated by heterosexuals.

Bannasidhe

Sappa wrote: »

I think a big fear that most people have is that given all the recent kiddy fiddling scandals they tend to have homosexual roots be it the ordained orders or secret paedo rings operating without prosecution.
The public sees this as a risk to the child if he is in the sole company of same sexed parents,men more than women.

Given that most of the recent kiddy fiddling scandals in Ireland have been linked to the Roman Catholic Church perhaps a more logical solution to the problem would be to ban clerics from having anything to do with children.

I also very much resent your implication that I, as a homosexual woman, am in anyway similar to a paedophile and request that you immediately withdraw that remark. :mad:

Reported.

Turtwig

magicbastarder wrote: »

why do people bother arguing with saps like this online?
i've got a spare wall going you can bash your head against if you prefer.

I wouldn't call them saps.
In all honestly, because I know people like this is real-life. This is experimentation find out what approaches work and what don't. Best to piss people off online and have them stonewall and shut down than people you know and really care about.

Links234

Sappa wrote: »

I think a big fear that most people have is that given all the recent kiddy fiddling scandals they tend to have homosexual roots be it the ordained orders or secret paedo rings operating without prosecution.
The public sees this as a risk to the child if he is in the sole company of same sexed parents,men more than women.

Given your obvious hatred for LGBT people, I doubt that your previous claims of having gay friends have any truth at all, I think you're probably just spinning a bunch of lies in order to make yourself appear like less of a bigot, but well done, cat's out of the bag now.

robindch

Sappa wrote: »

[...] the recent kiddy fiddling scandals [...] tend to have homosexual roots

Please withdraw that remark. Not only is it demonstrably false, but you know quite well that there are a number of homosexuals taking part in this thread.

Separately, your points of view are so cliché'd, and your avoidance of just about every question you've been asked is so obvious, that it's starting to seem likely that you're just another troll.

Can you please (a) apologize and (b) start answering the questions you've been asked, and then perhaps the forum can enjoy a debate about this topic.

Bannasidhe

Links234 wrote: »

Given your obvious hatred for LGBT people, I doubt that your previous claims of having gay friends have any truth at all, I think you're probably just spinning a bunch of lies in order to make yourself appear like less of a bigot, but well done, cat's out of the bag now.

He has 'queer' friends apparently. Perhaps in his world that means something different?

Shredder66

robindch wrote: »

In the few short years since George W Bush II divisively, but successfully, used fear of gay marriage to help energize his electoral base, the tide in North America has turned comprehensively in its favour, with a clear majority now supporting it in every significant poll that's been carried out since Obama declared in May that "same sex couples should be able to get married".

The attitude of Ireland's political leaders is more equivocal, with Enda Kenny famously saying he "won't be pressured" into supporting it, and Eamon Gilmore saying he most certainly does support it. From the legal perspective, both Cork and Belfast city councils have approved it (though with no legal standing, so far as I'm aware), and it's up for debate in the upcoming Constitutional Convention too, so it may well go to referendum for approval.

Outside of Ireland, the SNP in Scotland announced they'll bring forward legislation later this year to permit it, while New Zealand's legislature will debate the issue shortly too.

Predictably, Archbishop Brady announced he's against it, since it would "remove the family based on marriage from its pre-eminent and unique place in society", though I can't immediately see how allowing more people to take part in a binding social ceremony could conceivably reduce its importance. The UK's Cardinal Keith O’Brien said that introducing gay marriage would amount to a “grotesque subversion of a universally accepted human right”, and indicated that the Vatican would mobilize its believer population against the UK government's move to support it. Herr Ratzinger, with no sense of underplaying his hand, declared that gay marriage is a "threat to the future of humanity".

From the scientific perspective of social research, there's a lot of evidence that gay parents are at least as good as heterosexual parents, and in some instances, parenting with greater "commitment and involvement".

What are people's thoughts? Will gay marriage, or full marriage equality -- however you want to call it -- come to Ireland, and if so, when? Will it bring about a new age of generosity and tolerance towards those of different sexual orientations, or will it destroy the future of humanity?

.

I know I'm probably a bit late on this but here's my opinion. Marriage is and should only be between a man and a woman. Marriage used to be a sort of contract if you will which bound a man and a woman to make the foundations of a strong family unit.

Gay marriage in my opinion cheapens that. Either it's political correctness gone mad or homosexuals looking for the marriage benefits. They cannot, regardless of people's opinions be like normal heterosexual couples, they are pointless. Heterosexual couples have marriage to establish themselves as a unit to produce the next generation. Homosexuals just want attention.

Where will all of this end?! Next they'll want to donate blood, forget the risks, we have to be polite, that's far more important than spreading AIDS to ordinary people. Then there'll be Labour TD's pushing for gay adoption. I can guarantee in about fifty years time there'll be pedophile rights parades and pedophile pride day and if the masses see this as being portrayed as popular and trendy they will follow along closer to the edge of the cliff just like the very clever lemmings they are and bashing anyone with a contrasting opinion along the way.

It's highly inappropriate also seeing these individuals prancing around in drag in broad daylightpromoting sodomy and buggery and children watching. They should be ashamed and the politicians should be even more ashamed.

I think there should be a little colony, a little island for them all to go and live on and they can do what they like to each other out of the reach of children but i don't think they belong in a normal healthy European society.

Bannasidhe

Shredder66 wrote: »

I know I'm probably a bit late on this but here's my opinion. Marriage is and should only be between a man and a woman. Marriage used to be a sort of contract if you will which bound a man and a woman to make the foundations of a strong family unit.

Gay marriage in my opinion cheapens that. Either it's political correctness gone mad or homosexuals looking for the marriage benefits. They cannot, regardless of people's opinions be like normal heterosexual couples, they are pointless. Heterosexual couples have marriage to establish themselves as a unit to produce the next generation. Homosexuals just want attention.

Where will all of this end?! Next they'll want to donate blood, forget the risks, we have to be polite, that's far more important than spreading AIDS to ordinary people. Then there'll be Labour TD's pushing for gay adoption. I can guarantee in about fifty years time there'll be pedophile rights parades and pedophile pride day and if the masses see this as being portrayed as popular and trendy they will follow along closer to the edge of the cliff just like the very clever lemmings they are and bashing anyone with a contrasting opinion along the way.

It's highly inappropriate also seeing these individuals prancing around in drag in broad daylightpromoting sodomy and buggery and children watching. They should be ashamed and the politicians should be even more ashamed.

I think there should be a little colony, a little island for them all to go and live on and they can do what they like to each other out of the reach of children but i don't think they belong in a normal healthy European society.

This is either the most stunning example of Poe's Law or the opinion of one very disturbed and scary individual :eek:

Turtwig

I'd like that wall right about now.

oldrnwisr

In response to Jernal's post I have decided to distill and collate the different fragmented posts that I have made on the subject into one kinda basic summary of the evidence available. It won't be anything new for the regulars but it might be useful for this debate and in the future.


First off, as Jernal pointed out sorting out your logic regarding the arguments for and against gay marriage should be your first objective. The stock arguments that are offered in opposition to gay marriage all fall foul of logical fallacies in at least one regard.

1. If we legalise gay marriage then we'll have to legalise polygamy, incest, bestiality, (other random taboo activity) too.

Slippery slope fallacy


2. Same-sex marriage is unnatural

Forgetting for a second that marriage itself is a human construct and therefore unnatural yet again we have another fallacy.

Appeal to nature


3. Same-sex marriage will lead to the breakdown of society.

Appeal to consequences of a belief


4. Marriage is built on the idea of one man and one woman and should not be redefined.

Appeal to tradition


5. Same-sex marriage is harmful to children.

Aside from being demonstrably wrong, this argument is yet another fallacy.

Appeal to fear


I have omitted the appeal to religion from this list because it should be obvious that expecting a particular religious viewpoint regarding, well, anything to be enshrined in law has no place in democracy. Any way, the links above should explain why these arguments for marriage are fallacious but if you'd like me to clarify further just ask.


Now, as for the adoption question, both the phrasing of the constitution and the perspective of certain religions considers marriage to be the basis of family and that it is impossible to extricate the two. (Personally I think that argument is baseless but it's more useful to deal with it for the moment). You have described gay adoption as a "definite line which shouldn't be crossed". The thing is you're wrong. And here's why:


Key papers:

Biblarz, T., Stacey, J. (2010). How does the gender of parents matter? Journal of Marriage and Family, 72,3-22.
http://www.famigliearcobaleno.org/pu...nts-Matter.pdf

Bos, H. M. W., Gartrell, N. K., van Balen, F., Peyser, H. and Sandfort, T. G. M. (2008), Children in Planned Lesbian Families: A Cross-Cultural Comparison Between the United States and the Netherlands. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 78: 211–219
http://www.nllfs.org/images/uploads/...ilies-2008.pdf

Henny M. W. Bos, Frank van Balen, Children in planned lesbian families: Stigmatisation, psychological adjustment and protective factors, Culture, Health &Sexuality, Vol. 10, Iss. 3, 2008.
http://www.narcis.nl/publication/Rec...:uva.nl:307079

US National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study: Psychological Adjustment of 17-Year-Old Adolescents , Nanette Gartrell and Henny Bos Pediatrics 2010; peds.2009-3153; published ahead of print June 7, 2010
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or....full.pdf+html

Bos, Henny M. W., Hakvoort, Esther M.,Child adjustment and parenting in planned lesbian families with known and as-yet unknown donors (2007) Journal of Psychosomatic Obstetrics & Gynecology, 28, 121-129
http://home.medewerker.uva.nl/e.m.ha...voort_2007.pdf

Gartrell, Nanette, Bos, Henny, Goldberg, Naomi, (2010) Adolescents of the U.S. National Longitudinal Lesbian Family Study: Sexual Orientation, Sexual Behavior, and Sexual Risk Exposure, Archives of Sexual Behavior.
http://www.familieslg.org/_comun/bib..._Sex_Behav.pdf

Henny Bos and Theo G. M. Sandfort, (2010) Children’s Gender Identity in Lesbian and Heterosexual Two-Parent Families, Sex Roles, 62, 114-126
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2807026/

Farr, R. H., & Patterson, C. J. (2009). Transracial adoption among lesbian, gay, and heterosexual couples: Who completes transracial adoptions and with what results? Adoption Quarterly, 12, 187–204.
http://people.virginia.edu/~cjp/articles/fp09.pdf

Biblarz, Timothy J., Savci, Evren (2010) Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Families, Journal of Marriage and Family, 72, 480-497
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...0.00714.x/full

Bos, H. M. W., van Balen, F., & Van den Boom, D. C. (2007). Child
adjustment and parenting in planned lesbian-parent families.
American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 77, 38–48.
http://www.meerdangewenst.nl/documenten/AJOP.pdf

Gartrell, N., Deck, A., Rodas, C., Peyser, H., & Banks, A. (2005). The
National Lesbian Family Study: 4. Interviews with the 10-year-old
children. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 75, 518–524.
http://www.nllfs.org/images/uploads/...-olds-2005.pdf

Perrin,E.C.,&AmericanAcademyof Pediatrics,Committee on Psychosocial
Aspects of Child, Family Health. (2002). Technical report:
Coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents. Pediatrics,
109, 341–344.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...6c302e03b8d796

Vanfraussen, K., Ponjaert-Kristoffersen, I., & Brewaeys, A. (2002).
What does it mean for youngsters to grow up in a lesbian family
created by means of donor insemination? Journal of Reproductive
and Infant Psychology, 20, 237–252.
http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiL...2002-11380-003

Parenting and Child Development in Adoptive Families: Does Parental Sexual Orientation Matter?
Rachel H. Farr, Stephen L. Forssell, Charlotte J. Patterson
Applied Developmental Science Vol. 14, Iss. 3, 2010


Family Structure and Children's Health in the United States: Findings from the National Health Interview Survey, 2001-2007


Books, Reviews, Meta-Analyses

The Role of the Father in Child Development, Michael E. Lamb

Tasker, F. (2005). Lesbian mothers, gay fathers and their children: A
review. Journal of Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrics, 26,
224–240.
http://journals.lww.com/jrnldbp/Abst...ldren_.12.aspx

Tasker, F. (2010) Same-sex parenting and child development: Reviewing the contribution of parental gender, Journal of Marriage and Family
http://www.famigliearcobaleno.org/pu...evelopment.pdf


Consensus Positions


American Psychological Assocation

Position Statement in Support of Legal Recognition of Same-Sex Civil Marriage

Amicus brief submitted in support of 9th Circuit Court of Appeals challenge to California Prop 8

Lesbian and Gay Parenting Resource Publication

Canadian Psychological Association

Brief presented to the Legislative House of Commons Committee on Bill
C38

American Academy of Pediatrics

Policy statement - Coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents

Australian Psychological Society

Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) parented families - A literature review


American Psychoanalytic Association

Position statement on Gay and Lesbian Parenting


American Psychiatric Association

Adoption and co-parenting by same-sex couples


North American Council on Adoptable Children

Gay and Lesbian Adoptions and Foster Care


Royal College of Psychiatrists

Submission to the Church of England's Listening Exercise on Human Sexuality


American Academy of Child & Adolescent Pscyhiatry

Children with lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender parents


American National Association of Social Workers

Amicus brief - California Supreme Court - Case No. S147999


Child Welfare League of America

Position statement on parenting of children by lesbian, gay and bisexual adults


Legal Decisions

Third District Court of Appeal, State of Florida, Docket No. 3D08-3044
"As a result, based on the robust nature of the evidence available in the field, this Court is satisfied that the issue is so far beyond dispute that it would be irrational to hold otherwise; the best interests of children are not preserved by prohibiting homosexual adoption."


Also, as far as adoption is concerned as Bannasidhe points out, single gay individuals have been allowed to adopt since the Adoption Act was amended in 1991. Section 10.2 of that act states that any sole individual may adopt as long as the adoption board "is satisfied that in the particular circumstances of the case, it is desirable."

Finally I would like to point out that despite the protestations of certain religious people about the "inherent" wrong associated with "sodomy" that the arguments used against same-sex marriage are the same used against interracial marriage in the US. 50 years on and those arguments aren't anymore valid now than they were then.

Turtwig

Sticky that post. Put it in the forum charter if you have to. Actually we could do like a soccer forum thingy where everyone has to read that post and find the identifier words before they can post here.:D

Gbear

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This is either the most stunning example of Poe's Law or the opinion of one very disturbed and scary individual :eek:

There's not much that's surprising in it. Poe's law is particularly difficult with discussing ideas based on bigoted nonsense like religion. Even the most insane parody of these views still looks like your bog standard religious ignorance.

I'm guessing from what the poster wrote (assuming it isn't a piss take) that they saw it on the "latest threads" feed and, shock horror, posted something without having read the rest of the thread and most surprisingly of all, didn't invest a single rational thought or argument into their post, unlike most arguments for the status quo, which are usually so brilliantly thought out and eloquently delivered. :rolleyes:

doctoremma

Shredder66 wrote: »

I think there should be a little colony, a little island for them all to go and live on and they can do what they like to each other out of the reach of children but i don't think they belong in a normal healthy European society.

I'd much rather send you to a remote island, where you can spout your nonsense to your heart's content, out of the reach of children, away from the normal healthy European society that exists, despite people like you being in it.

Shredder66

doctoremma wrote: »

I'd much rather send you to a remote island, where you can spout your nonsense to your heart's content, out of the reach of children, away from the normal healthy European society that exists, despite people like you being in it.

The moderator asked for peoples opinions, I gave mine - deal with it!!

!

doctoremma

Shredder66 wrote: »

The moderator asked for peoples opinions, I gave mine - deal with it!!

!

I did.

magicbastarder

a random aside:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22115-why-sally-rides-sexuality-really-matters.html

Galvasean

It'd be funny... were it not so sad.

Bannasidhe

doctoremma wrote: »

I'd much rather send you to a remote island, where you can spout your nonsense to your heart's content, out of the reach of children, away from the normal healthy European society that exists, despite people like you being in it.

Can we not just make them all go and live in the Vatican - granted it's not an actual remote island but it may as well be given it is so out of step with the rest of Europe?

Although a lot of the men there do wear outfits that look suspiciously like dresses....but they also claim to be celibate so there shouldn't be many children around for them to indoctrinate into their bizarre rituals involving cannibalism, mortification of the flesh and celebration of death by torture.

Corkfeen

Sappa wrote: »

I think a big fear that most people have is that given all the recent kiddy fiddling scandals they tend to have homosexual roots be it the ordained orders or secret paedo rings operating without prosecution.
The public sees this as a risk to the child if he is in the sole company of same sexed parents,men more than women.

So, your first argument gets destroyed and you move on to how homosexuals are apparently the source of paedophilia, so shouldn't be trusted with children. Basically you seem to like making statements without anything to back them up. Your first post states how you have nothing against gay people yet now you're bringing up how they're the apparent root of paedophilia.....

PopePalpatine

bluewolf wrote: »

another time i reckon - i'm sick of all this bigoted nonsense lately

kid gets bullied because of his glasses - banning glasses not the answer
kid gets bullied because of his red hair - banning red hair not the answer
kid gets bullied because of gay parents - banning gay parents the answer

sonics and i may have been happy and not bullied because of it but for some people that just isn't enough

I was bullied because I was smart. Intelligence is probably one of the things the likes of Youth Defence would like to ban.

Galvasean

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I was bullied because I was smart.

Time to ban education from schools so people won't get bullied.

Sappa

Corkfeen wrote: »

Sappa wrote: »

I think a big fear that most people have is that given all the recent kiddy fiddling scandals they tend to have homosexual roots be it the ordained orders or secret paedo rings operating without prosecution.
The public sees this as a risk to the child if he is in the sole company of same sexed parents,men more than women.

So, your first argument gets destroyed and you move on to how homosexuals are apparently the source of paedophilia, so shouldn't be trusted with children. Basically you seem to like making statements without anything to back them up. Your first post states how you have nothing against gay people yet now you're bringing up how they're the apparent root of paedophilia.....

Not all of them but a certain percentage can't keep their Micky in there pants around children which alarms the general public.

coffee_cake

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I was bullied because I was smart. Intelligence is probably one of the things the likes of Youth Defence would like to ban.

Galvasean

Sappa wrote: »

Not all of them but a certain percentage can't keep their Micky in there pants around children which alarms the general public.

Enough about catholic priests already, this thread is about gay marriage!

Bannasidhe

Sappa wrote: »

Not all of them but a certain percentage can't keep their Micky in there pants around children which alarms the general public.

How dare you say such a thing about the clergy!