Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

lazygal

Daith wrote: »

Does he think people who marry and don't have children are not married?

According to doctrine if you don't have the sacrament of marriage you're not married. Hence how divorced people of other denominations can have a church marriage. So according to.him I'm not married. Yet here I am with two children.

Anyway children arguments are red herrings as they'll be dealt with regardless of whether we vote in favour of marriage equality.

gaynorvader

Daith wrote: »

Does he think people who marry and don't have children are not married?

Yep! And you're not allowed to have sex outside of marriage, so you'll just have to pray for an immaculate conception. Just like Joeseph in the Bible.

robindch

lazygal wrote: »

Daith wrote: »

I find it interesting that marriage is just about procreation. Is that it?

Or that procreation is just done by married people.

More specific than that - procreation should only be done by people who are likely to indoctrinate their children in the same religion that caused the people to submit themselves to the church in the first place.

How else could an authoritarian church guarantee the succession of generations?

Delirium

Finland legalises gay marriage

The Finnish parliament has narrowly approved a citizen’s initiative to legalise same-sex marriage.

Gay couples in Finland have been able to enter into registered partnerships since 2002, but until now the country was the only in the Nordic region not to allow same-sex marriage. Finland is now the 12th European state to do so.

In the vote, 105 members of parliament supported the legal amendment while 92 opposed it.

The measure will end the distinction in Finland between same-sex unions and heterosexual marriages and give such couples equal rights to adopt children and share a surname.

“Finland should strive to become a society where discrimination does not exist, human rights are respected and two adults can marry regardless of their sexual orientation,” the centre-right prime minister, Alexander Stubb, said in an open letter before the vote.

Most opponents argued that all children should have the right to a father and mother. “This is a question of the future of our children and the whole society, and such changes should not be made without thorough evaluation of their impact,” Mika Niikko of the nationalist Finns party said before the vote.

Links234

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rwc3VGvlRY

NuMarvel

That's going to stick in Quinn's craw.

Finland was his example of how marriage equality wasn't a human right, after the recent ECHR ruling, but it's got to burn that parliament went ahead and changed the law anyway. On foot of a Citizens Initiative with support from 166,000 Finnish citizens no less (so no claiming this was "forced" onto the population).

lazygal

At least the bigots here will get the chance to vote against marriage equality in a referendum of the people. Of course if the vote doesn't go their way, they'll probably challenge it and then when marriage equality is introduced people like me will have to get divorced and let the gheys adopt our children and/or use me as a surrogate or something.

PopePalpatine

I'm sure he'll come up with a bitter, catty and prickish response.

lazygal

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'm sure he'll come up with a bitter, catty and prickish response.

I expect no less. Maybe he can trundle downstairs to Pure in Heart for some tips on how to tell children about how gay people will ruin their future when they can get married.

ShooterSF

So anyone concerned that the government's serious lack of popularity right now could cause a protest vote? I can definitely see some of the no side trying to turn it that way.

NuMarvel

ShooterSF wrote: »

So anyone concerned that the government's serious lack of popularity right now could cause a protest vote? I can definitely see some of the no side trying to turn it that way.

I'm not especially worried about it. This has almost universal political backing, and I think the public only punish governments in referendums on political matters (e.g. Seanad, Oireachtas inquiries), not social matters.

You'll definitely see the No side trying to turn it into a protest vote, particularly against Labour. But I don't see it succeeding to any significant degree, barring more major foul ups between now and the referendum. Which I'll admit, is entirely possible with this crowd.

aloyisious

Daith wrote: »

Does he think people who marry and don't have children are not married?

I think if you look at how the R.C. church defines a marriage as being genuine after the ceremony, it sees the birth of children to the wedded couple as proof and that couples not producing children as not having consummated the marriage, making it null and void in the church's legal view. I suppose it's possible the church might take into consideration modern medical evidence that the couple are unable to do so as a reason not to see the marriage as null and void..... but I wouldn't like to bet on it.

aloyisious

Now I might try and get this book, just wonder will it be a best-seller? https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CDYQqQIwBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fentertainment%2Fbooks%2Fnew-book-reveals-strong-gay-scene-in-irish-catholic-church-30781075.html&ei=IxB5VOCEF6jY7AaX4YCABw&usg=AFQjCNEYlaxGCEQiPOdyYaMlE5HdJtuCEg

aloyisious

It seem's Fr Doran went a bit further in his speech at the talk... http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/senior-irish-bishop-children-shouldn%E2%80%99t-be-adopted-gay-people291114

The Black Oil

What does priest know about raising a child?

Nodin

aloyisious wrote: »

Any-one up for polygamy? Bishop Kevin Doran of Elphin think's that if the law on (Civil) Marriage is changed in next year's referendum, it will end the concept in the constitution that marriage is about procreation of children and nowt else............

For those interested, Bishop Kevin Doran was the Father Kevin Doran who was on the board of the Mater hospital and tried to block a trail of a cancer drug, as those women who might participate would have to take the pill.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/three-who-stopped-the-cancer-tests-25960150.html

He was eventually put into place over another matter
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fr-kevin-doran-resigns-from-mater-hospital-board-over-new-abortion-law-29628390.html

Cabaal

The Black Oil wrote: »

What does priest know about raising a child?

When it comes to catholic priests, they know sweet f*ck all,
except for those that had women on the side...in which case more power to them!

40% of children born in this country are to unwed women (those dirty, evil women the catholic church used to hate so much) http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/40-per-cent-of-babies-born-outside-marriage-29539976.html

Based on the news yesterday - http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/bishop-says-opposition-to-same-sex-marriage-not-about-homosexuality-1.2018063

One has to ask does the catholic church actually believe that 40% of children born in this country in 2013 are incapable of being raised as upright, civil, caring and vigilant adults? Especially as they claim marriage is required for this.

He said “societies rely on families built on strong marriages to produce what they need but cannot secure: healthy upright children who become conscientious citizens.

What a sickening view to have towards children born outside of marriage in this modern day :mad:

fisgon

The bishop's position is absurd. He claims that it is about procreation, not homosexuality, that a marriage where procreation cannot take place cannot be valid.

The fact is that marriage has had many different functions across human history, from uniting families, to political unions, to safety and security, to ....... I know this is hard to imagine, for the bish at least...... love between two people. To reduce marriage to simply a vehicle for producing children just shows how dogma-bound, irrational and non-sensical catholic teaching is on this.

To follow his logic, women over 50, who have generally passed the menopause and who cannot physically bear children, should be banned from marrying. Also infertile couples, they can't marry either. I look forward to hearing when he is going to start his campaign against these two groups being allowed to marry.

The fact is, of course it is about opposing homosexuality. The fact that he is incapable of admitting this shows how dishonest, hypocritical and weasely he, and the whole church, is on this topic.

Nodin

I have to admit that the learned Bishop has mystified me with his "sexual friendship" remark. Are the gay folk of the world incapable of love or something?

lazygal

Nodin wrote: »

I have to admit that the learned Bishop has mystified me with his "sexual friendship" remark. Are the gay folk of the world incapable of love or something?

Maybe he heard the phrase "friends with benefits" and assumed it only applies to the gheys.

shruikan2553

The whole children arguments can be disproved easily. Why must they continue to make it about children

Cabaal

shruikan2553 wrote: »

The whole children arguments can be disproved easily. Why must they continue to make it about children

It's always been about the children for the Catholic Church, for a crowd that deny themselves the natural, normal and healthy ability to create children they are obsessed about them.

In some normal and some extremely sickening ways

MrPudding

shruikan2553 wrote: »

The whole children arguments can be disproved easily. Why must they continue to make it about children

It's all they have... The actual reasonf or the objection is that their god (they) don't like gay people. I like Anne Lamott's view on this "You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.” (Actually, I think that oine will go back in the sig, time for a change.)As a result their god (them again) is intrinsically homophobic. Turns out that, unfortunately for them an unlike their god (them), society has moved on and this is no longer a valid reason.

As a result of this those that oppose equal rights, or let's face it, any rights, for gay people have resorted to pseudo science (and yes I even hesitated to call what they use pseudo science as there is a risk even that might lend it more credibility than it deserves) to try to justify their desire for continues discrimination against a minority on more secular and supposedly less homophobic grounds.

Unfortunately for them anyone with any kind of cop on at all, including thankfully most of the courts that this rubbish is being presented to, can see it for what it is, a thin and ineffective veneer of supposed respectibility over homophobic and discriminatory views that have no place in modern society.

IMO.

MrP

robindch

The parents of a transgender child retract the original announcement of the birth of their daughter. Cleverly.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/asia-pacific/proud-parents-of-transgender-man-compose-witty-birth-notice-we-were-mistaken-about-our-sprogget-30790985.html

Nodin

"Allowing same-sex marriage would be a “grave injustice” and a disservice to society, according to members of a representative body for Catholic bishops in Ireland.
Speaking at the launch of a leaflet entitled “The Meaning of Marriage” in Maynooth, high-ranking clergy from the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference set out the church’s stall in the run-up to an expected referendum on same-sex marriage next spring.
“The view of marriage as being between man and a woman and for life, that’s not something which is particular to Catholics and Christians. There are people of all kinds of other religious beliefs, and of none, who believe in that,” said Bishop Liam MacDaid of Clogher, who is chair of the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference council for marriage."
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/bishops-say-allowing-same-sex-would-be-grave-injustice-1.2024464

Yez can see that Bishop Kevin Doran, noted "Alive" Journalist and cancer trial blocker, is at the table there as well.

Delirium

Nodin wrote: »

"Allowing same-sex marriage would be a “grave injustice” and a disservice to society, according to members of a representative body for Catholic bishops in Ireland.
Speaking at the launch of a leaflet entitled “The Meaning of Marriage” in Maynooth, high-ranking clergy from the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference set out the church’s stall in the run-up to an expected referendum on same-sex marriage next spring.
“The view of marriage as being between man and a woman and for life, that’s not something which is particular to Catholics and Christians. There are people of all kinds of other religious beliefs, and of none, who believe in that,” said Bishop Liam MacDaid of Clogher, who is chair of the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference council for marriage."
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/bishops-say-allowing-same-sex-would-be-grave-injustice-1.2024464

Yez can see that Bishop Kevin Doran, noted "Alive" Journalist and cancer trial blocker, is at the table there as well.

Is he arguing against marriage equality or divorce??

Nodin

SW wrote: »

Is he arguing against marriage equality or divorce??

.....in some Freudian way, perhaps both. That war never ended for some.

efb

A grave injustice would be quietly moving paedophiles around the country and swearing their victims to secrecy

lazygal

efb wrote: »

A grave injustice would be quietly moving paedophiles around the country and swearing their victims to secrecy

Or burying babies in septic tanks. Or refusing to pay the money they owe the state. Or moving property into trusts so it can't be used by other schools.

Cabaal

Posted this on Facebook to all my friends and family last night after learning about the Catholic Church's new leaflet, figured might as well post it here to. Just annoyed at the time after reading about it (the leaflet).

I don't normally post about gay and lesbian couples or the Catholic church on Facebook, so I';d say a few people found it to be a surprised to see the post below...including a number of religious cousins, friends etc.

I'm sure to those here that read my posts whats written won't come as a surprise as I've always been clear about my feelings towards these subjects.

This might be somewhat ranty but stick with it, today I saw that the Catholic Church has finally started its campaign against marriage equality, which Ireland is having a referendum on in 2015.

Catholic Church all of a sudden seems awful concerned about the children of Ireland as they believe its a "grave injustice" if Ireland makes it legal for gay and lesbian couples to marry.

Their new tactic? Claiming every child has the right to a mother and father in a loving marriage. (this ignores the fact that over 40% of children born in Ireland are born outside of a marriage based on 2013 figures) Do the Catholic Church somehow believe all these children are less loved and cared for?.

Funny thing is, for an organization that now acts so very concerned about children they were more then happy to sell off children in Ireland for over 3 decades to American couples. Not to mention the hundreds of cover ups of sexual abuse which were covered up by the Vatican's own policies on how to handle cover-ups.

I also note that Bishop Kevin Doran is involved in this campaign against marriage equality for gay and lesbian couples. For those that have not heard of Kevin, he used to be on the board of Dublin's Mater Hospital.

In 2005 Kevin and two other individuals on the board of the hospital took the decision to stop trials of the drug for lung cancer patients. The reason?? They objected because female patients who could get pregnant would have to take contraceptives under the treatment. The drug to be tested at the time may have prolonged the lives of lung cancer patients by several months.

Kevin & his "friends" objected to use of the drug because women taking contraceptives was against the catholic church's "ethos". Due to this the cancer treatment was stopped.

So when it comes to cancer, they'd rather a women would die quickly then take the pill. In my book thats pretty messed up thinking. So forgive me if I don't respect Kevin on any level, he is pond scum and nothing more.

The bottom line is gay and lesbian couples deserve marriage equality, if a couple wants to get married then that is their personal choice.

If you think that marriage equality somehow de-value's your own marriage then you must be in an awful insecure marriage to begin with as I know that in the morning if marriage equality passes it doesn't change my marriage to my wife or my love for her one bit.

A marriage is what YOU as a couple make it, not what the catholic church claims it stand for. Thats why many people get married and decide never to have children for whatever the reason, thats their choice. It doesn't mean their marriage is less of a marriage because of this.

If you think that marriage is only to create a loving family for children then you do a disservice to the 40% of children born outside of marriage in Ireland by even suggesting that their parents somehow love or care for them in a lesser way to a couple that is married.

At the end of the day unlike nuns, priests and bishops the vast majority of people that will vote on marriage equality in 2015 have allowed themselves the most normal and natural thing in the world......to have feelings, relationships and sex with another human being.

How priests and bishops feel they are somehow qualified to comment on relationships and sex when they deny themselves these very normal feelings and experiences is beyond me. Would you trust a person to tell you how to drive if they never drove a car?

For those of us that have allowed themselves to create relationships, marry, divorce, have sex or whatever, you know that real life and marriage isn't some super dream land were children will experience nothing negative.

The Catholic church's attempt to somehow classify marriage as something that no gay or lesbian couple should ever experience is utter nonsense and a few very short years from now we'll look back at Bishop Kevin Doran and Bishop Liam MacDaid and call them bigots,

So with all that I urge people to get out and vote in 2015.