Gay Marriage/Marriage Equality/End of World?

old hippy

Bellatori wrote: »

Back in the early 90s I wrote a letter to the then President of Eire, Mary Robinson, suggesting that we could resolve the NI situation by forming the Federated States of North- western Europe. England Scotland Wales Ireland Channel Isles... ask Iceland if they wanted to join. and a few other things

I did receive a polite "Thank you for your letter!"

Who actually wants NI? Does Eire? They are going to be nothing but trouble. Does the UK? I don't know about anyone else but I would give them away for free...!

Oddly enough, there's still plenty over here who refer to the UK & Ireland in one breath, as if we never did achieve independence. That said, NI/6 counties is not a friendly place for minorities - immigrant or gay. It saddens me to say it but I think they'd be better off going their own way. I don't see any benefit in the statelet remaining under Whitehall's dominion nor Dublin's past claims.

Bellatori

old hippy wrote: »

Oddly enough, there's still plenty over here who refer to the UK & Ireland in one breath, as if we never did achieve independence. That said, NI/6 counties is not a friendly place for minorities - immigrant or gay. It saddens me to say it but I think they'd be better off going their own way. I don't see any benefit in the statelet remaining under Whitehall's dominion nor Dublin's past claims.

I think Mo Mowlam was the only one who understood the Irish question. I met her once. She was someone who was simply to nice to be rude to and too persuasive to ignore. I can understand why she was such a success in NI but with her death it all started to come unpeeled. We seem to be back to the grim old days of parades and marching and the odd shooting.

The problem is that Whitehall cannot give NI away even if it wanted to and if I were PM I would definitely be wanting to. It would not be the smallest statelet out there either.

How about telling Scotland that it can have independence if it takes NI as well!!! Bet Alex Salmond would have apoplexy!!

I wonder what the current Taoiseach would say if Whitehall said "Fine, the six counties are yours...!?" and walked away. Everybody focusses on the IRA and the Provos but there were some very nasty people amongst the UVF and its ilk.

Absolam

Bellatori wrote: »

I wonder what the current Taoiseach would say if Whitehall said "Fine, the six counties are yours...!?" and walked away. Everybody focusses on the IRA and the Provos but there were some very nasty people amongst the UVF and its ilk.

I've a sneaking suspicion he'd say something like "Thanks, but I never asked for it and I certainly don't want it now. By the way, if you ever mention you offered, you'll be responsible for a renewal of hostilities the like of which hasn't been seen since the 70s, so I'd keep my mouth shut if I were you." Along those kind of lines anyway; I don't think there's much of an appetite in the Republic for the kind of problems absorbing the North would create.

Not that it has much bearing on Gay Marriage, but it might be a step towards the end of the world for some people....

old hippy

Meanwhile, news from wonderful Brunei

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27216798

I believe this move also includes the death penalty for gay people?

Bellatori

old hippy wrote: »

Meanwhile, news from wonderful Brunei

URL omitted

I believe this move also includes the death penalty for gay people?

Why am I not surprised? Islam is turning out to be a pustule on the bottom of humanity. Completely irrelevant, I know, but killing gays is a trivial matter really... there are, so I understand, 100+ stanzas in the Quran simply justifying killing non-muslims. If they stick to that they should get the gays anyway...!

Islam... the religion of peace. That will be for muslims who are illiterate and therefore have not actually read the Quran. It's a joke... just in very bad taste.

Pherekydes

old hippy wrote: »

Meanwhile, news from wonderful Brunei

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27216798

I believe this move also includes the death penalty for gay people?

And atheists, if strict Islamic law is applied.

Going Strong

Pherekydes wrote: »

And atheists, if strict Islamic law is applied.

If you're a gay atheist which one takes precedence?

Obliq

Going Strong wrote: »

If you're a gay atheist which one takes precedence?

Sure, you'd have to be killed twice with that kind of carry on!

Pherekydes

Going Strong wrote: »

If you're a gay atheist which one takes precedence?

Hmmm, gay people are people (the clue is there), but we know from our holy fadder in Rome that atheists are not fully human.

In fact, we could probably "farm" atheists under Islamic law.

Absolam

Obliq wrote: »

Sure, you'd have to be killed twice with that kind of carry on!

You'd have to be the son of god to do that though. A gay athiest messiah... how very 21st century.

lazygal

Obliq wrote: »

Sure, you'd have to be killed twice with that kind of carry on!

What about bisexual atheists?

Obliq

lazygal wrote: »

What about bisexual atheists?

Hmm. Bisection and death?

lazygal

That's a stonin'.

SpaceTime

I really think homophobia needs to be challenged far more head-on than it is. If you look at some of the things that are going on in certain countries that are actually killing gay people, if it were happening to any other group of people such as an ethnic minority, a particular gender or a religious minority there would be international action in the form of trade sanctions, maybe even UN or NATO intervention.

However, it seems that when it comes to just murdering the odd gay person for being gay the world's prepared to turn a blind eye and just continue to trade for oil etc as normal.

A percentage of humans are gay, that's been documented in history for as long as we have been able to record history and in more liberal societies like Ancient Rome and Greece it doesn't appear to have been that much of a big deal.

I don't understand why right wing political philosophies and religions are so deeply homophobic.
I also don't understand why evolved 'westerners' are so forgiving of their own religious communities for being so deeply homophobic, we wouldn't tolerate it if they were being racist.

I find a lot of right wing philosophies religious and non-religious tend to idealise some kind of oversimplified version of humanity. They see us as these kind of lone hunter gathers who mate, have kids and only interact in a quite tightly defined way with a larger society. In the US, you'll often find that the really right wing stuff actually also idealises a totally independent, almost solitary setup, where it hates anything to do with society / big government, social welfare, solidarity etc etc.

The reality is that humanity is incredibly complex and socially interdependent to a level that few other species are. When you stand back and look at how we operate, we're are entirely about building tribes and super tribes known as societies. We cannot even function as individuals. If you isolate someone from social connections, they will actually just go insane. See what happens to someone in solitary confinement for an extended period!

We also spend vast amounts of energy and effort on developing communications systems. Everything from writing, to global transport systems, to the telephone, to mobiles, to the internet has been about keeping us connected.

Our predecessors lived in groups that survived or died out based on how well they corporate and how they develop their societies.

Evolution doesn't go around moralising or designing anything, what works works and carries forward.

I strongly suspect that there may have been an evolutionary advantage (for society) in having a % of members who were not necessarily directly involved in reproduction. It would make logical sense. If those people are 'freed up' to do other things in society like develop knowledge, hunt, gather, build stuff, take care of offspring, provide education, etc etc etc they actually contribute to the success of that society and thus its genes carry, including the part that includes a % of gay people.

So, it's quite possible that homosexuality evolved into our genetics if it gave a group of early humans (or some kind of social mammal) an advantage over an entirely heterosexual society by diversifying what it was able to do by freeing up members.

I just think going around bashing part of humanity that is absolutely part of us, is no different from going around shouting at your left arm and condemning it because you don't like left sides of things.

It's utterly nuts.

robindch

Christians still seem to be having some difficulty in divining the Will of The Divine.

Is god for marriage equality? A protestant group in North Carolina files suit that the state is unconstitutionally restricting religious freedom by barring clergy members from blessing gay and lesbian couples:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/29/us/churchs-lawsuit-challenges-north-carolina-ban-on-same-sex-marriage.html

NY Times wrote:

“We didn’t bring this lawsuit to make others conform to our beliefs, but to vindicate the right of all faiths to freely exercise their religious practices,” said Donald C. Clark Jr., general counsel of the United Church of Christ.

Or is god against it? A different conservative group from Virginia promises they'll be going on hunger strike from the end of August until the beginning of October to protest the horror of marriage equality.

http://www.frontiersla.com/frontiers-blog/2014/04/24/virginia-christians-starve-themselves-over-gay-marriage

Family Foundation wrote:

Our state and nation are mired in a morass of confusion and post-modern thinking that does not believe in absolutes nor that any truth can even be known. Nowhere is this more evident than in the current debate raging about what constitutes marriage. Pagan philosophies, a secular humanist education establishment and an entertainment industry that is absolutely determined in pushing the envelope on decency and morality have all combined to turn this great land into a country that our forefathers could not even begin to recognize.

lazygal

We need a good flood to flush out the real Christians.

PopePalpatine

robindch wrote: »

A different conservative group from Virginia promises they'll be going on hunger strike from the end of August until the beginning of October to protest the horror of marriage equality.

http://www.frontiersla.com/frontiers-blog/2014/04/24/virginia-christians-starve-themselves-over-gay-marriage

I think the Darwin Award is about to have a few new honourees.

Cabaal

robindch wrote: »

A different conservative group from Virginia promises they'll be going on hunger strike from the end of August until the beginning of October to protest the horror of marriage equality.

http://www.frontiersla.com/frontiers-blog/2014/04/24/virginia-christians-starve-themselves-over-gay-marriage

Any chance they'd try continue the hunger strike until August 2015....might clean up the gene pool abit

aloyisious

lazygal wrote: »

We need a good flood to flush out the real Christians.

Those that float?

old hippy

Hmm. Is being a religious bigot something you're born with or is it a lifestyle choice?

freyners

old hippy wrote: »

Hmm. Is being a religious bigot something you're born with or is it a lifestyle choice?

born with but only if your the right type of religous bigot, otherwise your going to hell

_Redzer_

You just have to love natural selection!

Going Strong

freyners wrote: »

born with but only if your the right type of religous bigot, otherwise your going to hell

Born? Are you sure? I mean, according to religious fundamentalists, being gay is a lifestyle choice so surely the same applies to bigotry?

Mum, dad, I have something to tell you. I'm a bigot. Now, I know what you're going to say but I know it in my heart that I'm one. I see gay people, atheists, secularists and I hate them all. It's not your fault, either of you, you brought me up to be loving and tolerant and secure in my faith but it's just not who I am, I want to hate all those who aren't like me and see them burn in hell for their wrongdoing. It's not a phase I'm going through or something I chose because it's cool or because I wanted to be different. I was born this way.

Brian Shanahan

old hippy wrote: »

Meanwhile, news from wonderful Brunei

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27216798

I believe this move also includes the death penalty for gay people?

Countries like this should be quarantined from the rest of the world, nothing enters, nothing leaves.

old hippy

Can bigotry be cured?

SebBerkovich

old hippy wrote: »

Can bigotry be cured?

Mark Twain said that :

“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts.”

But that was before RyanAir...

aloyisious

old hippy wrote: »

Hmm. Is being a religious bigot something you're born with or is it a lifestyle choice?

Nurture?

old hippy

aloyisious wrote: »

Nurture?

Not sure!

robindch

The homophobe behind some of Russia's recent homophobic laws notices that the Eurovision is a little camp and calls for it to be banned in Russia as it "could insult millions of Russians". Calls for a Russian version which promotes "traditional values".

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/30/russia-boycott-eurovision-gay-parade

The Guardian wrote:

The Russian politician who inspired a controversial anti-gay law has found a new source of gay propaganda: the Eurovision song contest.

St Petersburg legislator Vitaly Milonov – who sponsored a local law against homosexual propaganda in 2011 that helped pave the way for a similar federal law last year – has written a letter to Russia's Eurovision selection committee asking it not to send Russian musicians to the 2014 competition in Copenhagen in May. Calling the event a "Europe-wide gay parade," Milonov argued that Russian performers' participation would "contradict the path of cultural and moral renewal that Russia stands on today". In a tweet, the lawmaker called for a full boycott of the "Sodom show".

"Even just broadcasting the competition in Russia could insult millions of Russians," Milonov said in the letter, according to a statement from his press service. "The participation of the obvious transvestite and hermaphrodite Conchita Wurst on the same stage as Russian singers on live television is blatant propaganda of homosexuality and spiritual decay." Singer Thomas Neuwirth will represent Austria at Eurovision this year in his drag persona of Conchita Wurst. Milonov later tweeted that "completely boycotting" the show was not necessary, but said the "pervert from Austria" should be excluded.

Eurovision – taking place this year from 6-10 May – has long drawn Milonov's ire. He has previously called for his country to hold its own "Russiavision" showcasing "traditional values" – a term that President Vladimir Putin has also used to paint Russia as a bastion against western spiritual decline. Milonov criticised Russia's state-owned Channel One last May for broadcasting the 2013 Eurovision contest, which he called "degradation in the style of Hollande", in reference to the French president, François Hollande, who had just signed a law legalising gay marriage.

The MP has also frequently attacked international performers, most recently seeking to ban Ukraine's most popular band, Okean Elzy, from Russia for supporting the Euromaidan protests that ousted its president, Viktor Yanukovych. In 2012, he filed a complaint that Lady Gaga had violated the St Petersburg law against promoting homosexuality among minors when she called for respect for gay rights during her concert in the city. He also filed a complaint arguing that Lady Gaga and Madonna – who had called for gay people to be treated with dignity at a St Petersburg concert – had violated visa rules during their Russian tours.

Cabaal

robindch wrote: »

The homophobe behind some of Russia's recent homophobic laws notices that the Eurovision is a little camp and calls for it to be banned in Russia as it "could insult millions of Russians". Calls for a Russian version which promotes "traditional values".

They've seen the act's they've submitted in the past right? :pac: