Wind farm for the Midlands

Capt'n Midnight

MayoSalmon wrote: »

So your in favor of more pylons through the countryside and you think it will not harm tourism

Do you know why tourists come to Ireland?

86 years ago some of them would have come to marvel at the worlds largest hydroelectric scheme. :pac:



1930 map of pylons, they aren't exactly a new feature in the country side. The only difference is that a small minority with a sense of entitlement expect to be treated preferentially. In effect the rest of us are being asked to subsidise their lifestyle.


https://www.siemens.com/history/en/news/1123_shannon.htm



Offshore wind would be nice, but it's a lot more expensive because you not only have to build a wind turbine, you have to build an artificial island or plinth to put it on, and it now has to survive the worst of coastal weather and waves. Arklow bank could be putting 500MW into the grid. Add the Kish and Dublin bank and others up to Dundalk and something like 3,000MW of offshore wind is waiting in the wings - if only the price was competitive. Tidal turbines will be a while, but there's 200MW earmarked up north but the economies of scale haven't kicked in as it's a new technology.

Fossil fuel is getting more expensive and we have singled up on carbon emissions and tourists may not like it.

Nuclear is uneconomic here because one reactor would meet our summer night base load and would require the same again in fossil backup and there is zero chance of getting it built by 2030 , and zero chance of having it break even by 2050 or probably 2050. And doesn't go down well with some tourists.

Hydro is maxed out, at best you could possibly double it with micro-hydro / destroying lots of scenic waterfalls. Massive capital cost too. And even the it would only provide a tiny fraction of the power we need. In the future we may be able to use osmotic effects to extract more power, but it's like landfill gas, use it because it's handy and dispatchable but it's not going to provide more than a fraction of the demand.


Today given our climate onshore wind is the low hanging fruit of sustainable energy.

Macha

Survey by Failte Ireland shows tourists don't mind renewable energy infrastructure:

http://www.failteireland.ie/FailteIreland/media/WebsiteStructure/Documents/3_Research_Insights/4_Visitor_Insights/Visitor-Attitudes-on-the-Environment.pdf?ext=.pdf

Go across any European country and you'll see wind turbines and electricity grids.

MayoSalmon

Macha wrote: »

Survey by Failte Ireland shows tourists don't mind renewable energy infrastructure:

http://www.failteireland.ie/FailteIreland/media/WebsiteStructure/Documents/3_Research_Insights/4_Visitor_Insights/Visitor-Attitudes-on-the-Environment.pdf?ext=.pdf

Go across any European country and you'll see wind turbines and electricity grids.

Study looks outdated to say the least 6 years old by the looks of it.

Why are you comparing Ireland to other European countries. From that study vistors to Ireland put a high importance on scenery and natural landscape.

Tourists visiting Spain, England or German would not hence they can build all the horrible nuclear plants etc they want

Old diesel

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Study looks outdated to say the least 6 years old by the looks of it.

Why are you comparing Ireland to other European countries. From that study vistors to Ireland put a high importance on scenery and natural landscape.

Tourists visiting Spain, England or German would not hence they can build all the horrible nuclear plants etc they want

Well to be fair i don't think Pylons are particularly nice to look at - but it could be argued - if you've got nice scenery and natural landscape - its still going to be there - its just there may now be some "additional features" as well.

If we look at it another way - on the continent - in places like France or Italy the trains are electric - so wherever theres a railway line - you've got overhead powerlines to power the trains.

Bit different to be fair when you can see the railway tracks as it does give a bit of context to the overhead powerlines - but still.

Its something to be factored in alright - but not neccessarly a dealbreaker for pylons or wind turbines.

Theres a lot of things to be factored in - not just tourism - as i said my main interest would be as someone from rural Ireland - keeping rural communities going and keeping rural Ireland alive for generations to come.

Probably not a bad idea for rural Ireland to diversify into other industries beyond the traditional Agri and tourism (please note i am not saying get out of Agriculture and Tourism) - and if improved electricity supply and wind turbines help in keeping rural communities going for generations to come - id be very happy to look at them as potential good things.

But for me - there does need to be additional industries/jobs and an overall net additional benefit for rural communities with these projects.

Change can and does happen - but we need to change in order to move forward

Macha

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Study looks outdated to say the least 6 years old by the looks of it.

Why are you comparing Ireland to other European countries. From that study vistors to Ireland put a high importance on scenery and natural landscape.

Tourists visiting Spain, England or German would not hence they can build all the horrible nuclear plants etc they want

Well don't let your bias get in the way but it's 5 years not 6. I don't see why the results are invalid regardless.

As for scenery, you don't think people visit the UK, France, Scandinavia for the scenery??

Greensleeves

There is massive opposition to wind farms in the UK and France on the grounds that they ruin the scenery. The main reason these wind farms are being built in the Irish midlands is that Ireland is seen as a soft touch for planning. Plenty of room in the UK for them but nobody wants to look at them so they will be build in Ireland instead. Sad.

Old diesel

Greensleeves wrote: »

There is massive opposition to wind farms in the UK and France on the grounds that they ruin the scenery. The main reason these wind farms are being built in the Irish midlands is that Ireland is seen as a soft touch for planning. Plenty of room in the UK for them but nobody wants to look at them so they will be build in Ireland instead. Sad.

I don't mind having a certain amount of Wind turbines for our own electricity supply etc. But Im not too keen on this idea of exporting wind to UK - the wind energy projects themselves won't bring in enough jobs to earn their keep.

Its not like exporting Beef to the Uk - where the jobs are - Farmer, Agri contractors. Farm workers (on bigger outfits), meat factory staff, Hauliers and their drivers etc.

Exporting wind means no new jobs - the turbines will operate themselves - the wind turbine operators will bring in their own maintenance teams etc - or the manufacturer will.

And this idea that maybe we might make wind turbines or their parts in Ireland is a non runner. Afterall - if the likes of Nordex or Enercon have perfectly good factories in say Germany - wheres the incentive for them to set up here.

Its easier for them to import the turbines from Germany - I think anyway.

They say it will bring in income from the Uk - but who will get that income - the wind developers I would have thought no????.

Grudaire

In fairness money does go to the local Irish economy via the people who have windmills on their land.

Old diesel

Cliste wrote: »

In fairness money does go to the local Irish economy via the people who have windmills on their land.

True - but my concern is that people in that situation don't need to be on site - maybe ive missed something - but from a long term viewpoint - I could very easily see someone with land in Westmeath or Longford - with turbines on it - but they live/work in Dublin

They get the money in for the turbines at the due payment dates - but don't need to live there.

I realise obviously that many of the people who will have wind turbines on their farms will live in the area. But in the long term - that's not a great thing to rely on - as like why would you live in Westmeath next to your wind turbines if you have a job and house in Dublin.

Would be better to have proper industry and jobs in the area - so people have a reason to want to live in the area (work).

Grudaire

I don't see it as an either/or situation regarding wind farms vs industry and jobs. Ideally both, but at the moment the government doesn't have the capacity to create jobs.

Having a few turbines might make small holdings/smaller farms sustainable, a more viable option. At the moment this doesn't really exist.

Old diesel

Cliste wrote: »

I don't see it as an either/or situation regarding wind farms vs industry and jobs. Ideally both, but at the moment the government doesn't have the capacity to create jobs.

Having a few turbines might make small holdings/smaller farms sustainable, a more viable option. At the moment this doesn't really exist.

Your right - you can have other industries as well as wind. My point is more to do with the fact that exporting wind energy to the UK may not deliver extra jobs to make it worthwhile - from a jobs prospective

runawaybishop

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Study looks outdated to say the least 6 years old by the looks of it.

Why are you comparing Ireland to other European countries. From that study vistors to Ireland put a high importance on scenery and natural landscape.

Tourists visiting Spain, England or German would not hence they can build all the horrible nuclear plants etc they want

Have you any studies that show people will avoid a location because the pylons ruin the scenery? What if the pylons were prettier?

Grudaire

Old diesel wrote: »

Your right - you can have other industries as well as wind. My point is more to do with the fact that exporting wind energy to the UK may not deliver extra jobs to make it worthwhile - from a jobs prospective

I can understand what you're saying. In my opinion what makes the windmills worthwhile is:
- Reducing emissions,
- Remuneration for the local landowners affected, who will hopefully put it back into the local economy.

I understand that we probably place different weightings on these points..

Old diesel

Cliste wrote: »

I can understand what you're saying. In my opinion what makes the windmills worthwhile is:
- Reducing emissions,
- Remuneration for the local landowners affected, who will hopefully put it back into the local economy.

I understand that we probably place different weightings on these points..

Good stuff - obviously wed have different viewpoints but hey ho - that's what makes the internet fun

You've made some good well argued points - and I think they are perfectly good valid points.

Birdnuts

Cliste wrote: »

I can understand what you're saying. In my opinion what makes the windmills worthwhile is:
- Reducing emissions,
- Remuneration for the local landowners affected, who will hopefully put it back into the local economy.

I understand that we probably place different weightings on these points..

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farming.php?newsid=17812

No contracts have been signed with the UK yet so if I were one of those landowners I woudn't be ordering my new Ferrari just yet. Large elements of the UK government aren't too keen on the cost of all this eitheir for their consumers. There was also an investigative programme on some of these contracts signed by farmers in the midlands on TV3 recently and it appears many did not realise the implications of the small print and are not exactly happy with the advice they got from the IFA eitheir.

Old diesel

Birdnuts wrote: »

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farming.php?newsid=17812

No contracts have been signed with the UK yet so if I were one of those landowners I woudn't be ordering my new Ferrari just yet. Large elements of the UK government aren't too keen on the cost of all this eitheir for their consumers. There was also an investigative programme on some of these contracts signed by farmers in the midlands on TV3 recently and it appears many did not realise the implications of the small print and are not exactly happy with the advice they got from the IFA eitheir.

Oops if some of the Uk Govt aren't happy with cost to consumer - then that could definitely put the skids on the project.

Problem is though - that pesky EU directive requiring a certain amount of power in each country to be supplied via renewables.

However - a certain Mr D Cameron has been making noises about a referendum on the UK even staying in the EU - if he wins the next election.

Interesting times ahead I suspect

Capt'n Midnight

The other way of looking at wind farms is that while they don't generate a lot of money they do reduce the amount of fossil fuel we import so less money leaving the country.

Old diesel

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The other way of looking at wind farms is that while they don't generate a lot of money they do reduce the amount of fossil fuel we import so less money leaving the country.

Very good point - my concern though is with the plan to export to Uk - and whether we get sufficient benefit from it.

As regards wind turbines themselves - yup they are fine if they produce the power and reduce our need for fossils.

Birdnuts

Old diesel wrote: »

Oops if some of the Uk Govt aren't happy with cost to consumer - then that could definitely put the skids on the project.

Problem is though - that pesky EU directive requiring a certain amount of power in each country to be supplied via renewables.

However - a certain Mr D Cameron has been making noises about a referendum on the UK even staying in the EU - if he wins the next election.

Interesting times ahead I suspect

The Irish signed up for the maximum amount which was stupid and short sighted. Other countries signed up to levels that suited their own grid systems or reduced CO2 levels via the cutting of waste,switching to lower CO2 fuels like gas etc. which is what we should have done.

Birdnuts

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The other way of looking at wind farms is that while they don't generate a lot of money they do reduce the amount of fossil fuel we import so less money leaving the country.

We already have more wind output then is needed - adding more won't reduce the amount of fossil fuels needed for low wind periods eg. for the past week under HP conditions and high energy demand for lighting and heating during long cold nights. Intergrating wind into a grid also causes fossil fuel power stations to work less efficiently and therefore more fuel is needed

Capt'n Midnight

Birdnuts wrote: »

We already have more wind output then is needed - adding more won't reduce the amount of fossil fuels needed for low wind periods eg. for the past week under HP conditions and high energy demand for lighting and heating during long cold nights. Intergrating wind into a grid also causes fossil fuel power stations to work less efficiently and therefore more fuel is needed

Weasel words

more fuel is needed per unit when idling. But overall a lot less units are needed because you are getting them from wind. So it means a lot less fuel is needed.

It's like peddling when going downhill on a bike. You know you aren't transferring power as efficiently to the wheels but somehow it's a less effort overall

At times we get up to 1.5GW from wind - like on Wednesday
http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/ 20/11/2013
The difference between the lines is how much reserve power is needed. BUT there also needs to be enough reserve power to cover the largest generating unit, so in practice wind needs less backup than is already needed on the grid.

The limit is down to 50% max for stability / 1.5GW ( Gate 2 ?)
Portugal has got over 80% at times so it can be done
Gate 3 is looking towards 4GW http://www.eirgrid.com/gate3/

Greensleeves

The other way of looking at wind farms is that while they don't generate a lot of money they do reduce the amount of fossil fuel we import so less money leaving the country.

Untrue. The midlands wind farms are for export only so there will be no reduction in the amount of fossil fuel we import.

Old diesel

Greensleeves wrote: »

Untrue. The midlands wind farms are for export only so there will be no reduction in the amount of fossil fuel we import.

Indeed - hence why I have an issue with the number of jobs (or lack off) that wind power (in itself) will deliver.

In saying that however - I think there is the idea that if Irelands wind production is low - it can be imported from Uk - if Uk has excess wind production.

I personally take the view that its epically pointless - if households in the Midlands have wind turbines nearby - but they end up getting their electricity from non wind sources - while the wind energy from the nearby turbines goes off to the UK.

Not a great approach - but to my mind - the critical point is whether Ireland can do a good enough deal on the energy been exported to justify having wind turbines producing energy for another country.

My concern would be that too much of the benefits of the money coming in will go to wind energy companies - and not enough to communities in the Midlands who will have these wind turbines in their area.

.

fclauson

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The other way of looking at wind farms is that while they don't generate a lot of money they do reduce the amount of fossil fuel we import so less money leaving the country.

the subsidies in them would have been better spent in upgrading dwellings from an energy efficiency perspective & electrical equipment generally perhaps with PV which allows for usage at the electrical generation source using the grid as a inter-seasonal store. (see my other posts elsewhere on these boards on this topic)

Macha

fclauson wrote: »

the subsidies in them would have been better spent in upgrading dwellings from an energy efficiency perspective & electrical equipment generally perhaps with PV which allows for usage at the electrical generation source using the grid as a inter-seasonal store. (see my other posts elsewhere on these boards on this topic)

You can't choose between them for grid reasons.

Germany has a feck load of PV in its system right now and it's good for daytime, peak shaving etc but they need wind to complement PV's generation curves (which it does quite well).

The idea that we can just go for one or the other makes no sense from a technical perspective.

Jim Martin

Nobody yet seems to have come up with the answer of where does the electricity come from on wind-less days - which can often occur on the coldest days when the most electricity is needed (witness the last 2 cold winters 2010/11)?

fclauson

Jim Martin wrote: »

Nobody yet seems to have come up with the answer of where does the electricity come from on wind-less days - which can often occur on the coldest days when the most electricity is needed (witness the last 2 cold winters 2010/11)?

Hence my comment about invest in retrofit and insulation - reduce the demand for energy for the long term rather than providing more energy all be it alternative energy

Old diesel

fclauson wrote: »

Hence my comment about invest in retrofit and insulation - reduce the demand for energy for the long term rather than providing more energy all be it alternative energy

Isn't there work been done on developing the ability to store electricity for later use - or was I dreaming at the time

fclauson

Old diesel wrote: »

Isn't there work been done on developing the ability to store electricity for later use - or was I dreaming at the time

There is (google megawatt batter) - one is being build for 400MW !! (heaven knows what environmental coast in terms of raw materials there is )

it would be interesting to compare coasts with a the pumped water model - which has the added benefit that of water for drinking etc - see the brown bit of the graph at http://www.eirgrid.com/media/All-Island_Wind_and_Fuel_Mix_Report_October_2013.pdf

Greensleeves

Jim Martin wrote: »

Nobody yet seems to have come up with the answer of where does the electricity come from on wind-less days - which can often occur on the coldest days when the most electricity is needed (witness the last 2 cold winters 2010/11)?

I think that's where the European supergrid comes in. There was an article in the Independent the other day about Eirgrid looking into laying an undersea cable to France at the cost of 1 billion Euro (co-funded with the French I think). According to the article the power line would be used to export renewable energy to France and import power to Ireland if/when required. Given that France could supply its own renewable energy or import it more cheaply accross its several land borders I presume the French see themselves having a market for their nuclear power in Ireland rather than a need to import any electricity from us.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/eirgrid-wants-1bn-power-line-linked-from-france-29823301.html