DTT Mux Tariffs

el pasco

winston_1 wrote: »

Maybe for the broadcaster. But not for the viewer who has to buy an additional box for each TV.

How is it more dearer for the viewer?
A sat set top box cost the same as a terrestial set top box
And if rte went to only satellite you could have one box to get both freeview chanels and Saorsat on the one box
Hundreds of channels on one box

watty

That's simplistic nonsense I'm afraid.

el pasco

watty wrote: »

That's simplistic nonsense I'm afraid.

Explain then so

STB

el pasco wrote: »

Explain then so

This is a technical forum. Sometimes people may know more about something than you, but you shouldnt let that upset you.

You need to re-read the thread. You also need to read about satellite patterns, broadcast rights and more importantly simple posting etiquette.

el pasco

STB wrote: »

This is a technical forum. Sometimes people may know more about something than you, but you shouldnt let that upset you.

You need to re-read the thread. You also need to read about satellite patterns, broadcast rights and more importantly simple posting etiquette.

I understand that this is a satellite pattern and broadcasting rights etc but Watty did not back up any of the statements that s/he made
What's the point if making statements if you can't back them up
Then the answer Watty gave didn't even back up anything that Watty said which even goes to prove that the person doesn't know what they're on about

I did not get upset but I you want a proper discussion fair enough if not then go somewhere else

If this person knows more than me about a certain topic then prove with evidence and not just general and vague statement

Hendrik Verhoeven

el pasco wrote: »

If this person knows more than me about a certain topic then prove with evidence

31000-odd posts to look through, might do for a start.

el pasco

Hendrik Verhoeven wrote: »

31000-odd posts to look through, might do for a start.

I don't care how many posts they have and anyway if they are so knowledgable then the person can simple post they're responses to my statements

I don't know why other people are replying for Watty though
I sure Watty can reply for themselves

Hendrik Verhoeven

el pasco wrote: »

I don't know why other people are replying for Watty though
I sure Watty can reply for themselves

Was just a comment. You were looking for "evidence", it is there for you to peruse at your leisure.

I have not anything really to say on the theme here, just pointing this out. Apologies if I intruded on something.

el pasco

Hendrik Verhoeven wrote: »

Was just a comment. You were looking for "evidence", it is there for you to peruse at your leisure.

I have not anything really to say on the theme here, just pointing this out. Apologies if I intruded on something.

Well if Watty could give me his/her expert advice then that would be welcome
No need to apologise!!
No offence taken
Hope you are well! :-)

galtee boy

el pasco wrote: »

Well if Watty could give me his/her expert advice then that would be welcome
No need to apologise!!
No offence taken
Hope you are well! :-)

Since you called Watty ignorant and a glorified keyboard wizard, I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you.

el pasco

galtee boy wrote: »

Since you called Watty ignorant and a glorified keyboard wizard, I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you.

Why what's Watty going to do??
Eat me??

watty

el pasco wrote: »

I don't care how many posts they have and anyway if they are so knowledgable then the person can simple post they're responses to my statements

I don't know why other people are replying for Watty though
I sure Watty can reply for themselves

We sure can. But we have a life so no instant response.

The point has been answered 100s of times in the satellite forum.
And by RTE in front of the Committees.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055968485

I think even been answered in this thread.

Satellite is only for terrestrial fill in. That's why Freesat exists, for the 2% of UK that can't get good Freeview.

Irish Satellite can't be on the same system as Freesat. You CAN get Saorsat and Freesat on one box. But no integrated EPG, not reliably and also you need a special dish set up about twice size of Sky dish.

http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/

http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage

Do some research. Plenty on Rights issues and "security"/ownership issue of Satellite on these forums.

I was being polite calling your post nonsense.

Satellite could all be wiped out tomorrow by a solar flare.

The "birds" for UK & Ireland are owned by two Foreign companies. BBC, SKY, ITV don't even own any.

Dish and multiple TV set feeding is hugely more expensive than Terrestrial.

Only realistically fixed installations.

I could produce a whole website of content explaining that although it's a tiny fraction of transmission cost only idiots would have a strategy of Satellite only and no Terrestrial.

The answers are even in the links on my signature on every post. I don't get paid to come here either.

icdg

Okay, we have a play the ball not the man rule here, please stick to it.

el pasco

watty wrote: »

We sure can. But we have a life so no instant response.

The point has been answered 100s of times in the satellite forum.
And by RTE in front of the Committees.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055968485

I think even been answered in this thread.

Satellite is only for terrestrial fill in. That's why Freesat exists, for the 2% of UK that can't get good Freeview.

Irish Satellite can't be on the same system as Freesat. You CAN get Saorsat and Freesat on one box. But no integrated EPG, not reliably and also you need a special dish set up about twice size of Sky dish.

http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/

http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage

Do some research. Plenty on Rights issues and "security"/ownership issue of Satellite on these forums.

I was being polite calling your post nonsense.

Satellite could all be wiped out tomorrow by a solar flare.

The "birds" for UK & Ireland are owned by two Foreign companies. BBC, SKY, ITV don't even own any.

Dish and multiple TV set feeding is hugely more expensive than Terrestrial.

Only realistically fixed installations.

I could produce a whole website of content explaining that although it's a tiny fraction of transmission cost only idiots would have a strategy of Satellite only and no Terrestrial.

The answers are even in the links on my signature on every post. I don't get paid to come here either.

Satellite is NOT just for infill as SKY TV over 10 million subscribers in the UK alone

It has probably billions of users worldwide indeed in many parts of the world like the Middle East it's the only way to get TV or radio or Internet

I am well aware that BSKYB don't own the satellites it's own by SES based in Luxembourg but what does that matter?

Like I said before our mobile and phone infrastructure is owned by foreigners
In Britain their energy and phones infrastructure is owned by foreigners but who cares

The satellite for Saorsat is a high speed broadband satellite which is also used for TV
I am we'll aware of that fact

Terrestial based infrastructure could also be wiped out tomorrow by a solar flares as well so that point is neither here nor there

I am well aware that you can't get Saorsat and Freesat on one EPG
(Well unless you write your own program maybe)
But the same issues occurs for Saorview/Freesat

If RTE went to only Saorsat they would of saved at less €75m which would of meant that they would of being in a much better position financially and they would of saved money as the running costs are far lower year on year

STB

Sky television is a pay only TV subscription service.

Freesat has nothing to do with Sky. Freesat is a Free to Air Platform that mirrors the Freeview Terrestrial platform in the UK. In Ireland ours FTA PSB service is called Saorview on Terrestrial, Saorsat on Satellite.

The reason 2RN could use 9E for Saorsat, is because the costs were a fraction of the costs than that of a widebeam satellite like those at 28.2E.

The 9E satellite operated by Eutelsat is for DTH services with a very narrow spot beam that just about covers Ireland. It also uses KA LNBs rather than the traditional KU.

It was the first time that a satellite presented itself in this form and hence the opportunity to use same. Even still it is meant as a mechanism for the small percentage of the country that cannot receive Saorview via Terrestrial means (less than 2%).

Ireland has a small population (less than a 20th of the UK). We therefore cannot compete with even the UK PSB broadcasters interms of what we can use for delivery of television. Leaving aside the transponder costs to get on 28.2E, we could never afford to pay the rights that go with showing content (especially in HD) on a pan european basis or even Ireland and UK basis in the clear. Sports rights, films rights, US Dramas etc would be lost as we would be broadcasting to millions.

Previous governments have decided that the best way forward is for Ireland is to have its own terrestrial digital platform (as analogue was required to be switched off in line with other EU countries). It was RTE's decision to use Saorsat in parallel. Not all people can or wish to install satellite dishes.

el pasco

STB wrote: »

Sky television is a pay only TV subscription service.

Freesat has nothing to do with Sky. Freesat is a Free to Air Platform that mirrors the Freeview Terrestrial platform in the UK. In Ireland ours FTA PSB service is called Saorview on Terrestrial, Saorsat on Satellite.

The reason 2RN could use 9E for Saorsat, is because the costs were a fraction of the costs than that of a widebeam satellite like those at 28.2E.

The 9E satellite operated by Eutelsat is for DTH services with a very narrow spot beam that just about covers Ireland. It also uses KA LNBs rather than the traditional KU.

It was the first time that a satellite presented itself in this form and hence the opportunity to use same. Even still it is meant as a mechanism for the small percentage of the country that cannot receive Saorview via Terrestrial means (less than 2%).

Ireland has a small population (less than a 20th of the UK). We therefore cannot compete with even the UK PSB broadcasters interms of what we can use for delivery of television. Leaving aside the transponder costs to get on 28.2E, we could never afford to pay the rights that go with showing content (especially in HD) on a pan european basis or even Ireland and UK basis in the clear. Sports rights, films rights, US Dramas etc would be lost as we would be broadcasting to millions.

Previous governments have decided that the best way forward is for Ireland is to have its own terrestrial digital platform (as analogue was required to be switched off in line with other EU countries). It was RTE's decision to use Saorsat in parallel. Not all people can or wish to install satellite dishes.

I am we'll aware that Sky tv is a pay tv service but my point was that if 10m people pay for satellite then it obviously must be ok otherwise people wouldn't pay for it and it isn't a niche tv segment either

Millions of others use Freesat and millions around the world use satellite tv ok so why not just go for satellite tv and ditch terrestial TV and save a fortune
Even germanys biggest private tv broadcaster is stopping terrestrial broadcasting and going either to satellite cable or Internet or MMDS
Even Comreg in the UK wants to do this

What on earth has Ireland's population got to do with anything??
We broadcast on Saorsat and use Astra 28.2 to get UK channels
What's the issue??

Kristopherus

el pasco wrote: »

I am we'll aware that Sky tv is a pay tv service but my point was that if 10m people pay for satellite then it obviously must be ok otherwise people wouldn't pay for it and it isn't a niche tv segment either

Millions of others use Freesat and millions around the world use satellite tv ok so why not just go for satellite tv and ditch terrestial TV and save a fortune
Even germanys biggest private tv broadcaster is stopping terrestrial broadcasting and going either to satellite cable or Internet or MMDS
Even Comreg in the UK wants to do this

Do you really think the hundreds of thousands of Irish households could afford to install satellite dishes an set-top boxes in the middle of the biggest recession to hit this country since the foundation of the state?????

The Cush

el pasco wrote: »

Even germanys biggest private tv broadcaster is stopping terrestrial broadcasting and going either to satellite cable or Internet or MMDS

They changed their mind in December - http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2013/12/19/rtl-deutschland-reconsiders-dvb-t-distribution/

They were leaving terrestrial broadcasting because its future in Germany was uncertain but the new coalition government has guaranteed that spectrum will continue to be available and DVB-T2 will be the future standard.

Germany PSBs ARD and ZDF will switch to DVB-T2 in 2017 - http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2013/09/18/ard-and-zdf-plan-to-go-dvb-t2-in-2017/

There is no MMDS in Germany.

el pasco

Kristopherus wrote: »

Do you really think the hundreds of thousands of Irish households could afford to install satellite dishes an set-top boxes in the middle of the biggest recession to hit this country since the foundation of the state?????

I'm saying that this should of happened during the digital switchover
If it did RTE go to saorsat only it could of giving over €75m saving to subsidy the switchover simple

el pasco

The Cush wrote: »

They changed their mind in December - http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2013/12/19/rtl-deutschland-reconsiders-dvb-t-distribution/

They were leaving terrestrial broadcasting because its future in Germany was uncertain but the new coalition government has guaranteed that spectrum will continue to be available and DVB-T2 will be the future standard.

Germany PSBs ARD and ZDF will switch to DVB-T2 in 2017 - http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2013/09/18/ard-and-zdf-plan-to-go-dvb-t2-in-2017/

There is no MMDS in Germany.

Fair enough point taken

Sam Russell

el pasco wrote: »

I'm saying that this should of happened during the digital switchover
If it did RTE go to saorsat only it could of giving over €75m saving to subsidy the switchover simple

It was RTE that went with DVB-T (Saorview), it was RTE NL (Now 2RN) and it is public policy that we have terrestial broadcasting. 2RN are required to cost their services equally among their users as they are a monopoly.

RTE decided that it was a prudent use of their funds to go with Saorsat. It was never seen as a substitute for Saorview.

The cost of, say, 1 million satellite istallations at €200 each is much greater that the cost of Saorview (even factoring the cost of changes of aerials for users).

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

It was RTE that went with DVB-T (Saorview), it was RTE NL (Now 2RN) and it is public policy that we have terrestial broadcasting. 2RN are required to cost their services equally among their users as they are a monopoly.

In fairness to El Paso, they are arguing that it should not have been public policy, and in fairness their is a lot public policy mistakes in this area, particularly in relation to DTT.

Sam Russell

Elmo wrote: »

In fairness to El Paso, they are arguing that it should not have been public policy, and in fairness their is a lot public policy mistakes in this area, particularly in relation to DTT.

Agreed, but I think the mistakes in public policy are more to do with the BAI and the ministerial (apparent) control over content (wrt RTE) and the lack of (effective) control over TV3 and their failures to deliver content required by their licence.

But failures in public policy are more apparent in other areas of government.

el pasco

Sam Russell wrote: »

It was RTE that went with DVB-T (Saorview), it was RTE NL (Now 2RN) and it is public policy that we have terrestial broadcasting. 2RN are required to cost their services equally among their users as they are a monopoly.

RTE decided that it was a prudent use of their funds to go with Saorsat. It was never seen as a substitute for Saorview.

The cost of, say, 1 million satellite istallations at €200 each is much greater that the cost of Saorview (even factoring the cost of changes of aerials for users).

I'm not sure it was RTE NL policy that started it I thought it was government policy to have terrestial digital tv and RTE NL had to do what the government said

I wouldn't say that it you would need 1 million satellite insatallations as many people already have large enough dishes but even if they did you can buy a dish quiet cheaply particular say on eBay etc with a cheap generic set top box and many people put up satellite dishes themselves many even on or near ground level
So it need not cost any more if not much more than the actual digital switch over

Also the government could if sold that spectrum and that would if raised money with could of subsided the cost of the switch over
The saving that RTE could of made could of say went to subsidy some of the people with the digital switchover like say the poor or elderly or sick etc

In Switzerland and Austria their PSB is on satellite and you just buy a decoder card for say €5 and it unscrambles just the national PSB channels so you don't need a second or bigger dish

The Cush

el pasco wrote: »

I'm not sure it was RTE NL policy that started it I thought it was government policy to have terrestial digital tv and RTE NL had to do what the government said

It was EU and ITU policy, the EU required digital TV networks to be operational by Jan 1st 2012 and cleared of analogue TV. The ITU date is Jun 2015.

There was no question that analogue terrestrial TV networks wouldn't be replaced by DTT networks. The DTT frequency plan for Europe, Africa and parts of Asia (ITU Region 1) was signed off in Geneva in 2006 (GE06) after 4 years of planning and 2 regional conferences (RRC04 and RRC06).

winston_1

el pasco wrote: »

In Switzerland and Austria their PSB is on satellite and you just buy a decoder card for say €5 and it unscrambles just the national PSB channels so you don't need a second or bigger dish

Really €5. Don't you have to buy a satellite receiver/decoder and get a dish installed as well? In the UK the PSB is also on satellite and a decoder (Freesat box, no card required) is a lot more than €5. On top of that you need to get a dish installed, around £80. Likewise in France the PSB is on satellite and a decoder and card (Fransat or TNTsat box) is around €90 for SD, somewhat more for HD. And you need to get a dish installed.

el pasco

winston_1 wrote: »

Really €5. Don't you have to buy a satellite receiver/decoder and get a dish installed as well? In the UK the PSB is also on satellite and a decoder (Freesat box, no card required) is a lot more than €5. On top of that you need to get a dish installed, around £80. Likewise in France the PSB is on satellite and a decoder and card (Fransat or TNTsat box) is around €90 for SD, somewhat more for HD. And you need to get a dish installed.

The cost of the card to decode the PSB signal is only a few euro and last for a few years
If you don't already have a satellite dish satellite set top box them yes of course you have to get one

el pasco

The Cush wrote: »

It was EU and ITU policy, the EU required digital TV networks to be operational by Jan 1st 2012 and cleared of analogue TV. The ITU date is Jun 2015.

There was no question that analogue terrestrial TV networks wouldn't be replaced by DTT networks. The DTT frequency plan for Europe, Africa and parts of Asia (ITU Region 1) was signed off in Geneva in 2006 (GE06) after 4 years of planning and 2 regional conferences (RRC04 and RRC06).

I am well aware that this was signed off by the ITU many years ago but did we really have to go down the DTT route?

I know that in the Middle East North Africa where it is sparely populated that people just use satellite as they're no point building a DTT network in the middle of the desert which might only serve a few people

I learned that they weren't using the DTT spectrum in large parts of North Africa because no one lives there and that this could case interfered with Southern European counties as they used it for 4G mobile

The Cush

el pasco wrote: »

I am well aware that this was signed off by the ITU many years ago but did we really have to go down the DTT route?

Like every other European nation, yes.

The Cush

el pasco wrote: »

.. and that this could case interfered with Southern European counties as they used it for 4G mobile

This is why countries enter into bilateral agreements so that doesn't happen, Ireland and the UK signed their 4g agreement in Jun 2012 which replaced the 2006 bilateral agreement between the 2 countries.