Revenue inspection fines

yachtsman

There is attention today to a fine of €100 on a Galway Senator imposed because she boarded a train on Thursday in Athenry without a ticket. Apart from our inclination to gloat on any embarrassment caused to a politician these days and their public humiliation, I think we should focus on the wider issue here.

If any of us were asked to describe a railway ticket inspector there is a good chance we would describe someone with a bag over their shoulder with an electronic ticket issuing machine in it and an array of tickets neatly slotted in the bags side. Any of us could readily envisage a ticket being issued to a passenger by the Inspector.

So the rules have obviously changed recently.

As a regular rail user (weekly) I can honestly say I had not known of the change until this issue hit the airwaves. So perhaps the publicity has helped to get the message accross - but at a certain cost to the Galway Senator - instead of a commercial cost of advertising the fact by Iarnrod Eireann; ie verbal and written advice to passengers.

I would think that the company might have allocated a period of say three months during which the transition would take place and that "offending" customers would receive a warning that fines would apply in future.

I understand that passenger numbers have dropped dramatically on the Galway line in the face of motorway and intensive bus competition. I can't imagine such a public scene occuring on the competing services so IE have probably driven away another coachload of customers.

Finally, how many of these on the spot fines were issued last Thursday. Were any issued to those "entitled" to free travel or those accompanying them "free of charge" who in my experience regularly fail to obtain a free ticket before travel and think that flashing their social welfare card at the ticket inspector is sufficient.

corktina

Im not sure there has been any change and you are mixing up a Conductor with a ticket inspector.
I beleive the Rail bylaws specifically state you should not board a train without a ticket once there are facilites at your station to buy one.

flyingsnail

yachtsman wrote: »

There is attention today to a fine of €100 on a Galway Senator imposed because she boarded a train on Thursday in Athenry without a ticket. Apart from our inclination to gloat on any embarrassment caused to a politician these days and their public humiliation, I think we should focus on the wider issue here.

If any of us were asked to describe a railway ticket inspector there is a good chance we would describe someone with a bag over their shoulder with an electronic ticket issuing machine in it and an array of tickets neatly slotted in the bags side. Any of us could readily envisage a ticket being issued to a passenger by the Inspector.

So the rules have obviously changed recently.

There have been no changes that I am aware of since the fixed penalty fines in the railway safety act 2005

As a regular rail user (weekly) I can honestly say I had not known of the change until this issue hit the airwaves. So perhaps the publicity has helped to get the message accross - but at a certain cost to the Galway Senator - instead of a commercial cost of advertising the fact by Iarnrod Eireann; ie verbal and written advice to passengers.

I thought that would have been covered by the No ticket, No travel, No excuses posters.

I would think that the company might have allocated a period of say three months during which the transition would take place and that "offending" customers would receive a warning that fines would apply in future.

I understand that passenger numbers have dropped dramatically on the Galway line in the face of motorway and intensive bus competition. I can't imagine such a public scene occuring on the competing services so IE have probably driven away another coachload of customers.

Finally, how many of these on the spot fines were issued last Thursday. Were any issued to those "entitled" to free travel or those accompanying them "free of charge" who in my experience regularly fail to obtain a free ticket before travel and think that flashing their social welfare card at the ticket inspector is sufficient.

It could be possible that these people are showing the inspector their annual ticket. Also it is not possible to get a social welfare ticket if the office is not manned.

Hungerford

From her party:

Clarification Re: Senator Healy Eames’ Train Journey
July 13, 2012

“Senator Healy Eames boarded the 6.50am train to Dublin in a rush, at Athenry station yesterday morning (Thursday). She did so on the understanding that she would be able to purchase a ticket on board, as she had previously done on recent occasions. She was approached by an officer from the revenue protection unit on board who asked her for ID. She produced her Seanad ID card. She offered to buy a ticket as normal. He told her she could not buy a ticket from him and and fined her €100.
Senator Healy Eames was shocked to learn this as she had purchased two tickets on board just weeks earlier, in June. She showed the RPU officer the counterfoils which proved that they were both purchased on the train. Senator Healy Eames has appealed the fine.”

Emma Hynes
Fine Gael National Press Office

Hungerford

I don't really see how the Senator has a leg to stand on. If the booking office was open and the ticket machines were functional, she had no excuses and IE were within their rights to fine her.

In fact, I would be more interested about her previous two boardings without a ticket. I would be curious as to whether she was challenged then but the inspector backed down once she produced her Seanad ID and just sold her a ticket anyway.

I just hope that IE don't back down under political pressure on this case.

dowlingm

did we really need ANOTHER fines thread?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056691985

Hilly Bill

It looks like she produced her seanad id card in the thinking that she wouldnt have to pay. Why show her id card when asked for her train ticket?
FG would have a field day with this if it was a FF that had done it.

celt262

dowlingm wrote: »

did we really need ANOTHER fines thread?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056691985

I think we do yes.

Stark

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Why show her id card when asked for her train ticket?

From the sounds of it, the inspector asked her to show ID so he'd know who to address the fine to.

Losty Dublin

Senator Healy Eames, according to the piece, "boarded the 6.50am train to Dublin in a rush". We can assume that she makes trips on a regular basis based on the fact of her officer requiring her to be in Dublin regularly and the comment in the piece "as she had purchased two tickets on board just weeks earlier, in June".

• If she travels regularly, why hasn't she used online tickets which are cheaper for us taxpayers, who are the ones paying for her travel.
• Again, as a regular traveler, I'd be surprised if she has never seen a RPU inspection before.
• You would wonder, how many times has she attempted this tactic in the past?
• It takes a train about 15 minutes to get to Athenry from Galway. For the train to have been early, she'd be cutting it rather fine at the best of times.

For the record, Atheny's arrangements for passengers. It has a TVM on hand and is manned from 5AM.

http://www.irishrail.ie/Athenry

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It looks like she produced her seanad id card in the thinking that she wouldnt have to pay. Why show her id card when asked for her train ticket?
FG would have a field day with this if it was a FF that had done it.

It looks more like she was asked for ID and produced ID as requested.

As for her not buying online or not buying weekly or monthly tickets she may only use the train occasionally and most likely at short notice so seasonal tickets would be more wasteful of taxpayers money and online fares may not be possible as senators and other public representatives often need to travel without much notice.

Why not question why some journeys have a person selling tickets and the same journey on a different day or week will not but will have these RPU stormtroopers handing out fines?

If CIE/IE want to survive they will have to start treating customers fairly and do so consistently!

Hilly Bill

Stark wrote: »

From the sounds of it, the inspector asked her to show ID so he'd know who to address the fine to.

Thats correct, i read it wrong.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

It looks more like she was asked for ID and produced ID as requested.

As for her not buying online or not buying weekly or monthly tickets she may only use the train occasionally and most likely at short notice so seasonal tickets would be more wasteful of taxpayers money and online fares may not be possible as senators and other public representatives often need to travel without much notice.

Why not question why some journeys have a person selling tickets and the same journey on a different day or week will not but will have these RPU stormtroopers handing out fines?

If CIE/IE want to survive they will have to start treating customers fairly and do so consistently!

They do treat them fairly, they only fine those without a valid ticket at time of travel. Stormtroopers?

I thought that they dont sell tickets on board anymore? I would have thought that it would be better for IE to sell tickets on the train as its revenue all the same. Maybe make the on board price a few quid dearer than the booking office or the ticket machines in the stations.

Losty Dublin

Prior to asking her for her ID, it would be a sure bet that she was asked for her ticket first.

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I thought that they dont sell tickets on board anymore?

They do sell them on board; they cost you €100 one way

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They do sell them on board; they cost you €100 one way

Is it any wonder that Irish Rail are just about finished. Their no-care attitude will do nothing except lose them customers and subsequently lose many hardworking people their jobs and those who think "the government will never let that happen" will have to think again! The government would not have any say in making the staff of Irish rail redundant if Europe decides that rail transport in its current form is a luxury we just can't afford!

highlydebased

What is the reason that they won't sell tickets onboard anymore?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Is it any wonder that Irish Rail are just about finished. Their no-care attitude will do nothing except lose them customers and subsequently lose many hardworking people their jobs and those who think "the government will never let that happen" will have to think again! The government would not have any say in making the staff of Irish rail redundant if Europe decides that rail transport in its current form is a luxury we just can't afford!

Thanks Foggy for one of those LOL moments

Jamie2k9

You must have a ticket to baord any services. If there is a ticket office or machine at the station you have no excuse. There are a number of stations which don't have these facilites and only then are you promitted to board the train with no ticket. I don't see why were are talking about this AGAIN and AGAIN when the majority of the time its it passegner in the wrong.

Mabye next time she will set the alarm clock earlier and not be in a rush. A leason to be learned and fair play to the inspector on baord to treat her no different to other passengers. Lets be honest its not as though she couldn't afford the fine and there is no reason for her to appeal it.

Build a bridge and get over it, she was running late and took a chance but was caught..I'm sure it was the taxpayer who was paying for her to go to Dublin, wonder if the €100 fine will be claimed for?

I just hope that IE don't back down under political pressure on this case

I hope so to.

Hilly Bill

You can be assured that the fine will be claimed on expenses.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You can be assured that the fine will be claimed on expenses.

Why would she not claim it as an legitimate travel expense?

Jamie2k9

Why would she not claim it as an legitimate travel expense?

So the taxpayer pays the fine because she didn't allow enough time to get the ticket in the station. The fine should be out of her pocket. It is not a legitimate expensie, only the train ticket is, if she had bothered get one before she boarded the service which I highly dought was early in the station as claimed and if it was it would of not departed before the scheduled departure time.

Foggy lad if she was fined for speeding enroute to Dublin because she was in a "rush" should that be claimed?

yachtsman

Next time she'll probably drive - which will cost the taxpayer €250 - in order to avoid further embarrassment and jibes of "Got your ticket Senator? ". I think the fine was one thing, which I'm sure she no more than any other customer has an entitlement to appeal. The reporting of the incident on the www by another passenger was mean-spirited and her humiliation was not presribed in the Iarnrod Eireann By-Laws. It's an unfortunate side to public transport customer relations practice in these modern times that any conversation is likely to be overheard, recorded, and transmitted to the www without the customers knowledge or consent. I'd agree with foggy-lad that IE need to watch their customer relations because rail services are under serious financial pressure and nothing is untouchable anymore - you need only look to Galway Airport which is now closed to scheduled traffic to see that. I have no time for fare dodgers which I don't believe the Senator is and the suggestion that an on-board ticket would cost substantially more than others sounds a good idea to me.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So the taxpayer pays the fine because she didn't allow enough time to get the ticket in the station. The fine should be out of her pocket. It is not a legitimate expensie, only the train ticket is, if she had bothered get one before she boarded the service which I highly dought was early in the station as claimed and if it was it would of not departed before the scheduled departure time.

Foggy lad if she was fined for speeding enroute to Dublin because she was in a "rush" should that be claimed?

Her travel expenses are to cover all the expenses of travelling to and from the seanad in the course of her work so being asked to attend at short notice and her being a busy person she arrived late at the station so gets fined for not having the time to buy a ticket and not wanting to hold up the train she boarded thinking she would be able to buy a ticket on board because this option was previously available!

It is a travel expense and a legitimate one as it is an expense resulting directly from her travelling in the course of her work!

Disband CIE/IE and let people who want Rail transport to continue in Ireland take over because Irish Rail seem preoccupied with alienating and discouraging all their passengers except the Quango CIE board types who frequent 1st class who are also on expenses.

If she was able to purchase tickets on board on two previous occassions they should be available on every service!

tangowhiskey

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why would she not claim it as an legitimate travel expense?

Because it's not legitimate. Rightly or wrongly she can claim for the cost of the ticket to Dublin, but she shouldn't for the fine. She chose of her own volition to take the risk and board the train - no-one forced her to. Regardless of what she thought, she should have given herself time to buy a ticket at the station; she didn't and was caught out. Therefore the burden is on her to pay the €100 out of her own pocket.

I don't often side with IE but in this case they were 100% right.

foggy_lad

tangowhiskey wrote: »

I don't often side with IE but in this case they were 100% right.

It is entrappment plain and simple, because the company have given the impression that Tickets are available to buy on board trains they are enticing people to board without tickets if they arrive at stations at the last minute by making them believe that they can purchase a ticket on board!

Irish Rail can't afford the bad publicity from this type of thing as even the normal passenger being entrapped like this loses the company a fortune every year as people turn to their own cars and to Gobus and Citylink to get them from Dublin to Galway and back! They are losing far more from cutting their nose off to spite their face than fare evasion could ever cost them!

Jamie2k9

Her travel expenses are to cover all the expenses of travelling to and from the seanad in the course of her work so being asked to attend at short notice and her being a busy person she arrived late at the station so gets fined for not having the time to buy a ticket and not wanting to hold up the train she boarded thinking she would be able to buy a ticket on board because this option was previously available!

We will agree to disagree but I'm sure this could be a grey area when it comes to claims. Its an avoidable expense because she failed to follow rules.

From my experiance any person who gets a ticket onbaord is told you should have got one in the station as there is lots of signs saying a ticket is required to baord the train in stations.

Would this be allowed to happen in Heuston.....she would be waiting for the next train

I don't often side with IE but in this case they were 100% right.

Same here.

Irish Rail can't afford the bad publicity from this type of thing as even the normal passenger being entrapped like this loses the company a fortune every year as people turn to their own cars and to Gobus and Citylink to get them from Dublin to Galway and back! They are losing far more from cutting their nose off to spite their face than fare evasion could ever cost them!

On ther other side I think a lot of ordinary people will have respect for treating here just like a passenger without a ticket.

tangowhiskey

foggy_lad wrote: »

Her travel expenses are to cover all the expenses of travelling to and from the seanad in the course of her work so being asked to attend at short notice and her being a busy person she arrived late at the station so gets fined for not having the time to buy a ticket and not wanting to hold up the train she boarded thinking she would be able to buy a ticket on board because this option was previously available!

Do you know that she was asked to attend at "short notice"? Irrespective, she arrived late and didn't buy a ticket at the office or TVM. That is the issue here.

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is entrappment plain and simple, because the company have given the impression that Tickets are available to buy on board trains they are enticing people to board without tickets if they arrive at stations at the last minute by making them believe that they can purchase a ticket on board!

It is not entrapment. In the previous two cases, if there was no-one on board selling a ticket, she would have been fined in upon arrival in Heuston for not having a ticket. As it was, she was lucky. In this instance she wasn't. Hopefully she will learn her lesson; this she is like everybody else and must:

Irish Rail wrote:

You must purchase a valid ticket for the journey you are undertaking, before joining the service. If you don’t have a valid ticket on board the service you will have to pay a fixed penalty notice of €100 plus the unpaid fare.

It's there in black-and-white.
Available here: http://www.irishrail.ie/media/FixedPenaltyDLLeafletV.4180620121.pdf

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

We will agree to disagree but I'm sure this could be a grey area when it comes to claims. Its an avoidable expense because she failed to follow rules.

...

On ther other side I think a lot of ordinary people will have respect for treating here just like a passenger without a ticket.

Agreed.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

We will agree to disagree but I'm sure this could be a grey area when it comes to claims. Its an avoidable expense because she failed to follow rules.

As expenses are generally unvouched i can't see this ever being an issue for her or any other senator or TD.

From my experiance any person who gets a ticket onbaord is told you should have got one in the station as there is lots of signs saying a ticket is required to baord the train in stations.

And most of those same people will tell the ticket seller who is not RPU that they would have got a ticket at the station if the office was open/manned or if the Que was short enough that they would have time to get a ticket and then board the train without delaying the train!

Would this be allowed to happen in Heuston.....she would be waiting for the next train

Next time she is at the ticket office on time she should wait and buy a ticket and demand that the train is held for her as clearly Irish Rail are not providing an efficient means of buying tickets at the station when a Que for the ticket office makes customers late for their train!

The same thing regularly happens in Carlow where there will be upwards of 20 people waiting to buy tickets and due to issues with the credit card system being slow and staff being slow also the last in the Que are usually late boarding the train but it is usually ok as trains rarely depart Carlow on time!

On ther other side I think a lot of ordinary people will have respect for treating here just like a passenger without a ticket.

I also respect the fact she was treated exactly the same even though that included a certain amount of public humiliation which I'm sure the RPU people took no satisfaction in but my point is that NOBODY should be treated like this by any arm of the state whether civil service or semi-state.

Jamie2k9

And most of those same people will tell the ticket seller who is not RPU that they would have got a ticket at the station if the office was open/manned or if the Que was short enough that they would have time to get a ticket and then board the train without delaying the train!

As already siad only if ticket office is closed or no machine at station you are free to board. People need to arrive early and the timetable clearly states gates close 2 minutes before departure. (I know its not enforced but it should be).

Next time she is at the ticket office on time she should wait and buy a ticket and demand that the train is held for her as clearly Irish Rail are not providing an efficient means of buying tickets at the station when a Que for the ticket office makes customers late for their train!

The same thing regularly happens in Carlow where there will be upwards of 20 people waiting to buy tickets and due to issues with the credit card system being slow and staff being slow also the last in the Que are usually late boarding the train but it is usually ok as trains rarely depart Carlow on time!

There is lots of Ticket Machiens in Heuston that have no queues to get tickets anld agree Carlow has issues that need to be addressed.

I also respect the fact she was treated exactly the same even though that included a certain amount of public humiliation which I'm sure the RPU people took no satisfaction in but my point is that NOBODY should be treated like this by any arm of the state whether civil service or semi-state

I don't agree with the way she was treated but as already said the RPU were doing there job and there is a big deal being made but I see no reason why the first poster who was onbaord would make up what he posted and if true its not acceptable from a TD.

Losty Dublin

Just looking at the Twitter tweets and the FG statement about this.

The guy on Twitter, Chris Tierney, said that she had a return trip but for the wrong way, something the senator thanks him for providing an accurate account of what happened. Today's statement says she was of the understanding that she could buy a ticket on board.

Either she tendered an invalid ticket on board the train or she assumed she could buy one on board and hadn't got one. I'd like to know which statement is correct as both of them can't be right.