orange provocation

Nodin · 13-07-2012 9:17pm

alastair wrote: »

And what's any of this got to do with where they're posting from? Or should I just peg this down to kneejerk localism?

If it was, why should it bother you?

alastair · 13-07-2012 9:19pm

Nodin wrote: »

If it was, why should it bother you?

It doesn't bother me at all - I'm clear now that they guy is an idiot, and can take it from there.

Nodin · 13-07-2012 9:19pm

philologos wrote: »

..............

I think that the PSNI need to have more consultation in respect to these marches. But ultimately people should have the freedom to celebrate on the 12th of July, the question is as to how to do that without rubbing peoples noses up in it.
...........

Not marching in contested areas, or marching in a circle in front of a catholic church singing sectarian songs. Amazing complex issues to grasp there.

Border-Rat · 13-07-2012 9:20pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Anyone smell a re-reg here?

Careful. They 'infract' you for saying this now.

philologos · 13-07-2012 9:22pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

But do you think what went on in that video - which is the point of this thread, after all - represents the behavior of rational people? And here I am referring both to the decision to march around in circles singing a song that everyone knows is anti-Catholic in front of a Catholic Church and to the reaction of the men who attacked the guy recording it.

TBH the attempt to paint this as 'one side is as bad as the other' is just seems like an attempt at rationalization: the video can and should be judged on its own merits without having to go back to half a millennium of tit for tat.

Of course it isn't the behaviour of rational people.

The question is whether or not this represents the 12th of July as a whole. I'm a skeptic I have to say, and I prefer for obvious reasons to put this into perspective.

I'm not saying anything spectacular here.

Oranage2 · 13-07-2012 9:24pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

But do you think what went on in that video - which is the point of this thread, after all - represents the behavior of rational people? And here I am referring both to the decision to march around in circles singing a song that everyone knows is anti-Catholic in front of a Catholic Church and to the reaction of the men who attacked the guy recording it.

TBH the attempt to paint this as 'one side is as bad as the other' is just seems like an attempt at rationalization: the video can and should be judged on its own merits without having to go back to half a millennium of tit for tat.

Of course there are two sides to the story and the truth is they're as bad as each other and that what Phil was saying.

http://www.964eagle.co.uk/news/uk-news/718413/police-wounded-in-northern-ireland-violence/

There's a lot more to the video then some nuts marching outside a church. Northern Ireland is a religious and political mine field and these marches are only a small part of it.

Border-Rat · 13-07-2012 9:24pm

philologos wrote: »

Of course it isn't the behaviour of rational people.

The question is whether or not this represents the 12th of July as a whole. I'm a skeptic I have to say, and I prefer for obvious reasons to put this into perspective.

I'm not saying anything spectacular here.

It does represent the 12th of July as a whole. Ever been accosted at an armed roadblock on the 12th of July? I have, and it was nowhere near Belfast. Of course you haven't, because you've never set foot on this Island.

BBDBB · 13-07-2012 9:25pm

philologos wrote: »

Of course it isn't the behaviour of rational people.

The question is whether or not this represents the 12th of July as a whole. I'm a skeptic I have to say, and I prefer for obvious reasons to put this into perspective.

I'm not saying anything spectacular here.

ahh but you are occupying the middle ground of the fair and just minded man.............hence you are despised and attacked by both sides of the debate

Border-Rat · 13-07-2012 9:26pm

Oranage2 wrote: »

Of course there are two sides to the story and the truth is they're as bad as each other and that what Phil was saying.

http://www.964eagle.co.uk/news/uk-news/718413/police-wounded-in-northern-ireland-violence/

There's a lot more to the video then some nuts marching outside a church. Northern Ireland is a religious and political mine field and these marches are only a small part of it.

So the local Priest wounded the officers and was held up in the Chapel? And singing songs about the famine is the job for convicting whoever assaulted the police?

Listen to yourself.

philologos · 13-07-2012 9:27pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

It does represent the 12th of July as a whole. Ever been accosted at an armed roadblock on the 12th of July? I have, and it was nowhere near Belfast. Of course you haven't, because you've never set foot on this Island.

To point out again, I was born and raised in Ireland.

Noreen1 · 13-07-2012 9:28pm

philologos wrote: »

I don't know if I would say that of certainty. I'd be interested if you had statistics we could look at though.

I'm not sure if the 12th of July is entirely rotten. Much as I'm not sure that events like Guy Fawke's Night are entirely rotten. It largely depends on what people do with these events that make them count.

I think that the PSNI need to have more consultation in respect to these marches. But ultimately people should have the freedom to celebrate on the 12th of July, the question is as to how to do that without rubbing peoples noses up in it.

For the record, I agree with you.

Since so many marches go ahead peacefully, it seems that a lot of lodges know how to go about celebrating without rubbing peoples noses in it.
Ultimately, the PSNI cannot eradicate sectarianism - they can only police it.

What is needed is real leadership from both Communities - but moreso the one causing the provocation.
The majority of Orange Order members seem to be able to celebrate without offensive and provocative displays. That being the case - could a motion not be passed, where provocative displays would result in sanctions, such as any lodge engaging in provocation/sectarianism being banned from taking part in any future marches for X period of time - say, the rest of the season, or the following season if they limit their provocation to the end of the marching season?

There has to be a way forward. Just ignoring the problem, or worse, condoning it, is only adding fuel to the flames.

ps. I don't have statistics for the numbers of Protestants leaving the North on the 12th, vs. on other bank holidays.
I do, however, travel around Donegal a lot, and whereas it is true that a lot of people from N.I regularly spend Bank Holidays in Donegal, there are noticeably more cars with a Northern reg. to be seen parked in Protestant communities on the 12th, than on other Bank holidays.
You can choose to take my word for it, or not. That is your right, but I am telling the truth.

Nodin · 13-07-2012 9:29pm

philologos wrote: »

Of course it isn't the behaviour of rational people.

The question is whether or not this represents the 12th of July as a whole. I'm a skeptic I have to say, and I prefer for obvious reasons to put this into perspective.

.

Heres some perspective for ye.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth

philologos · 13-07-2012 9:32pm

Noreen1 wrote: »

Since so many marches go ahead peacefully, it seems that a lot of lodges know how to go about celebrating without rubbing peoples noses in it.
Ultimately, the PSNI cannot eradicate sectarianism - they can only police it.

The PSNI can enforce march paths. The lodges can consult better with the PSNI. Therefore there can be things done about it.

Noreen1 wrote: »

What is needed is real leadership from both Communities - but moreso the one causing the provocation.

Absolutely. I think level headed policing is the only right way to deal with situations like these.

Noreen1 wrote: »

The majority of Orange Order members seem to be able to celebrate without offensive and provocative displays. That being the case - could a motion not be passed, where provocative displays would result in sanctions, such as any lodge engaging in provocation/sectarianism being banned from taking part in any future marches for X period of time - say, the rest of the season, or the following season if they limit their provocation to the end of the marching season?

Obviously we'd need to talk as to what constitutes a "provocative display", but I agree hands down that alternative paths should be considered. Intentional intimidation of others is of course something to be frowned upon, and something to be condemned.

Noreen1 wrote: »

There has to be a way forward. Just ignoring the problem, or worse, condoning it, is only adding fuel to the flames.

Of course. I understand that entirely.

Nodin wrote: »

Heres some perspective for ye.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth

I know full well what it is about Nodin. I'm questioning simplistic attitudes that are presented towards it on this thread. I'm not sure it is exactly as people say it is.

Border-Rat · 13-07-2012 9:33pm

philologos wrote: »

To point out again, I was born and raised in Ireland.

Well to field your query - Loyalists act like savages on the 12th and this is not an isolated incident.

donegal_man · 13-07-2012 9:35pm

fryup wrote: »

:rolleyes: give me a break, hardly any prods left in the republic..they were driven out

Hell's Bells! Why did nobody tell my family this in time? Is there still time for us to catch the boat?
Huge difference between Orange "culture" and Protestantism, where I grew up in the Midlands the Orange Order was not seen as having anything to do with our culture, which was Irish, it was seen as something weird that happened in "the wee black north". It was only when I moved to Donegal that I became aware of there being lodges in the Republic and even when I got to know a couple of people involved in the order here they didn't seem at least to share the bigotry of their colleagues across the border, for example they attended their Catholic neighbours weddings, funerals etc.

Nodin · 13-07-2012 9:36pm

philologos wrote: »

I know full well what it is about Nodin. I'm questioning simplistic attitudes that are presented towards it on this thread. I'm not sure it is exactly as people say it is.

If you read that links section on the 12th in NI you wouldn't be coming out with that.

Nodin · 13-07-2012 9:37pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

Well to field your query - Loyalists act like savages on the 12th and this is not an isolated incident.

Nor would that be an isolated opinion.

In February 1992, the loyalist Ulster Defence Association (UDA) shot dead five Catholic civilians in a betting shop in Belfast. When Orangemen marched past the shop that 12th July, some marchers held up five fingers in mockery of the five dead. The Secretary of State, Patrick Mayhew, said that they "would have disgraced a tribe of cannibals".[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth

Border-Rat · 13-07-2012 9:39pm

Nodin wrote: »

Nor would that be an isolated opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelfth

What stands out more to me is the murder of a taxi driver and the burning to death of 3 Catholic children during the Drumcree standoff. After these murders, Orangemen continued their protest. Filth.

h2005 · 13-07-2012 9:45pm

alastair wrote: »

Singing about the famine outside a Catholic church isn't actually racist, and the OO is openly sectarian - which isn't a problem until they start to actually suppress someone else on the back of that sectarianism. I'm not a subscriber to their beliefs, but it certainly doesn't bother me that they hold them - or that they perform a merry song and dance outside a church in support of them. Who was harmed on the back of the act?

The guy filming it?

philologos · 13-07-2012 9:45pm

Nodin wrote: »

If you read that links section on the 12th in NI you wouldn't be coming out with that.

I've read the article before.

You seem to be missing my point by a barge pole. My point was, that many people celebrate the Twelfth legitimately in Northern Ireland. Not all who are involved are provocateurs or promote that kind of attitude towards Roman Catholics.

It's not that difficult to understand my position. I don't doubt for a second that there has been violence surrounding it in the past.

Border-Rat · 13-07-2012 9:47pm

philologos wrote: »

I've read the article before.

You seem to be missing my point by a barge pole. My point was, that many people celebrate the Twelfth legitimately in Northern Ireland. Not all who are involved are provocateurs or promote that kind of attitude towards Roman Catholics.

It's not that difficult to understand my position. I don't doubt for a second that there has been violence surrounding it in the past.

Not condemning it is supporting it.

gurramok · 13-07-2012 9:47pm

philologos wrote: »

I don't know if I would say that of certainty. I'd be interested if you had statistics we could look at though.

Well, yesterday morning and afternoon after work I had the privilege of travelling on the M50(Dublin ring road motorway) all northside, nearly every 7th vehicle(all types) had a Northern reg. Co-workers travelling from the southside reported the same thing. You'd have to assume that not all occupants were of Nationalist persuasion. To see this on a major Dublin road was unreal.

alastair · 13-07-2012 9:48pm

h2005 wrote: »

The guy filming it?

The Shinner councillor filming wasn't injured.

philologos · 13-07-2012 9:48pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

Not condemning it is supporting it.

I don't condemn the Twelfth as an actual event. It is up to the people of Northern Ireland as to what they want to commemorate, and as to what they want to celebrate.

I do condemn thuggish behaviour of all kinds and wherever it comes from. I've said as much very very clearly in my posts.

pragmatic1 · 13-07-2012 9:55pm

southsiderosie wrote: »

But I do think that many unionists, regardless of their feelings about Catholics, still look at stuff like flag-burning, etc as something that 'respectable' people don't do. They won't be sending their kids to Catholic school anytime soon, but paramilitary flags and the like are a bit much.

My father grew up in the American South in the 1950s, and he will be the first to tell you that folks in Mississippi are still racist as hell - many high schools still have separate proms for the black kids and the white kids. But despite their leanings, people today aren't going nullify trials for racists who attack blacks the way they did back in the 60s, and Mississippi had some of the fastest growth in American inter-racial marriages over the last ten years.

There's a unionist MP from the "moderate" UUP called James Taylor, he's actually a lord. He's on record saying that he had a sneaking admiration for sectarian killers like UDA C Company and the Shankill Butchers. You'd never hear a man like John Hume saying anything like that.

In the 1970s they had things called romper rooms in bars in Belfast. They'd pick up drunk Taigs, take them to loyalist bars and most people in the bar would have a hand in battering the poor Taig to death, "respectable" orange men and all.

Oranage2 · 13-07-2012 10:03pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

So the local Priest wounded the officers and was held up in the Chapel? And singing songs about the famine is the job for convicting whoever assaulted the police?

Listen to yourself.

Right I've read enough of your posts to know you're a troll.

But im saying some orange men are scum(not all) and im also saying that the republics aren't innocent either.

Doc Ruby · 13-07-2012 10:04pm

philologos wrote: »

I don't condemn the Twelfth as an actual event. It is up to the people of Northern Ireland as to what they want to commemorate, and as to what they want to celebrate.

I do condemn thuggish behaviour of all kinds and wherever it comes from. I've said as much very very clearly in my posts.

People like you are why I abandoned the Abrahamic religions.

philologos · 13-07-2012 10:08pm

Doc Ruby wrote: »

People like you are why I abandoned the Abrahamic religions.

"People like me"? - You mean people who seek to know the truth of the matter rather than relying on human conjecture?

Sorry, I should be banging on about how all who celebrate the Twelfth are pure evil shouldn't I?

Forgive me, if I can't believe that to be true.

You're the one who has claimed I've lied about my nationality, and you're the one who claims that I advocated "racism" and "sectarianism" for simply saying I'm not sure if you're right?

h2005 · 13-07-2012 10:13pm

alastair wrote: »

The Shinner councillor filming wasn't injured.

No just assaulted sure that`s grand

Mardy Bum · 13-07-2012 10:19pm

It is more of a class issue now under the false banner of religion. For generations there has been large parts of the north on the poverty line. A full second level education was rarely attained and even a primary education was rare. These same people spawned more of the same idiots who never got a education as they either could not afford it or the parents were lazy gits who couldn't care less and the cycle continued to the present day. This will most likely continue but to a lesser extent as the class divide lessens.

orange provocation

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