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Questions on Nationalism and the right.

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    #62
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    Hawkeye123 wrote: »
    Lest we forget, it is capitalists who pay for socialism in the first place.

    It should be understood that tax in it's very nature is a socialist vehicle. It enables and supports public untilites, social care, education, health and lest we forget capitalist banking folk who can't live by their own philosophy.
    Hawkeye123 wrote: »
    It should also be pointed out that capitalism can withstand almost anything except the incompetence of public sector bodies like our own financial regulator.

    Capitalism has and will always fail under it's own weight.
    Just to point out that the financial regulator's flaw was not reigning in rampant capitalism, which in turn crushed the country for nothing more than personal greed and profit. Maybe Ireland is better off without a right wing nationalist party?


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    #63
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,947 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    Lockstep wrote: »
    The link between nationalism and the left seems to mainly be a Celtic trend: Sinn Féin, Plaid Cymru, the Scottish National Party and so on.

    Some of the Basque (Batasuna, Abertzaleen Batasuna, etc) and Catalan (Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya) nationalist parties identify as left wing too. As does Fatah (Palestinian Nationalists) in the Middle East. Quebec too (Bloc Québécois).

    Although it's fair to say that in each of these regions, there's also right wing nationalist parties too. Which isn't the case (at a popular level at least) in the Celtic countries.


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    #64
    Hawkeye123
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Hawkeye123


    Canvasser wrote: »
    That doesn't even makes sense. You clearly have no idea what socialism is.

    Yes I do. Socialism is what capitalists pay for in their taxes. The public sector only pay pretend taxes because they get their money from the state.


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    #65
    Gregor Samsa
    Registered Users Posts: 8,947 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    Hawkeye123 wrote: »
    Yes I do. Socialism is what capitalists pay for in their taxes. The public sector only pay pretend taxes because they get their money from the state.

    Huh?

    So do the thousands of employees of private sector companies in receipt of state subsidies and grants only "pretend" to pay taxes too?


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    #66
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    Capitalism has and will always fail under it's own weight.
    At least it can support itself between crisises, while socialism will fail immediately without external support or natural resources. Sweden built socialism on Nazi gold, Norway on oil, Cuba on aid from USSR


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    #67
    Canvasser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭Canvasser


    Hawkeye123 wrote: »
    Yes I do. Socialism is what capitalists pay for in their taxes. The public sector only pay pretend taxes because they get their money from the state.

    Socialism is about taking the factors of production into public ownership. Socialism and capitalism can not co-exist. And usually capitalists pay little or no tax. They hoard their money in offshore accounts to avoid giving back any of what they took out of society. It is PAYE workers who pay the tax. You seem to be under the misguided impression that anyone who works in the private sector is a capitalist.


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    #68
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    Canvasser wrote: »

    Socialism is about taking the factors of production into public ownership.
    Any successful examples?


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    #69
    Duggys Housemate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,298 ✭✭✭Duggys Housemate


    Canvasser wrote: »
    Socialism is about taking the factors of production into public ownership. Socialism and capitalism can not co-exist. And usually capitalists pay little or no tax. They hoard their money in offshore accounts to avoid giving back any of what they took out of society. It is PAYE workers who pay the tax.

    If we cant even agree on definitions.........

    Most people would call that communism. The modern version of socialism is re-distribution.

    As someone who despises Marxism and Libertarianism equally - both simple theories its amusing to find these arguments are libertarians vs communists. Where most people are centre left to centre right.


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    #70
    Canvasser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭Canvasser


    Count Dooku wrote: »
    At least it can support itself between crisises, while socialism will fail immediately without external support or natural resources. Sweden built socialism on Nazi gold, Norway on oil, Cuba on aid from USSR

    WTF?! I think you should attempt to read a book sometime. People on this thread seem to give uncritical support to capitalism without having any idea of what it is.


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    #71
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    Canvasser wrote: »
    WTF?! I think you should attempt to read a book sometime. People on this thread seem to give uncritical support to capitalism without having any idea of what it is.
    what is the reason to criticise if there is no alternative to it?


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    #72
    Hawkeye123
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Hawkeye123


    phutyle wrote: »
    Huh?

    So do the thousands of employees of private sector companies in receipt of state subsidies and grants only "pretend" to pay taxes too?

    No. They pay real taxes.


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    #73
    Hawkeye123
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Hawkeye123


    Canvasser wrote: »
    Socialism is about taking the factors of production into public ownership. Socialism and capitalism can not co-exist. And usually capitalists pay little or no tax. They hoard their money in offshore accounts to avoid giving back any of what they took out of society. It is PAYE workers who pay the tax. You seem to be under the misguided impression that anyone who works in the private sector is a capitalist.

    In most countries there is a public and a private sector. The public sector represents socialism and of course that has to be paid for by the private sector since socialism is incapable of supporting itself. You say capitalists pay little or no tax but that applies to a tiny minority who avail of legal tax incentives. Remove those incentives and the top echelons of capitalism will avail of similar tax incentives elsewhere while thousands of Irish workers lose their jobs. Personally, I don`t begrudge tax breaks for the wealthy but then I am not of a jealous disposition.

    As for hoarding money in offshore accounts, I think you will find the top paid politicians and civil servants could tell you a thing or two about that (albeit after a few pints).

    Private sector workers derive their income from the private sector and they are therefore far more in tune with the real world than their public sector counterparts.


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    #74
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Hawkeye123 wrote: »
    No. They pay real taxes.

    Everybody pays "real" taxes. Unless you can provide proof of two different types of taxation based on what sector a person works in and/or their ideology, I suggest you drop that line.


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    #75
    Hawkeye123
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Hawkeye123


    Nodin wrote: »
    Everybody pays "real" taxes. Unless you can provide proof of two different types of taxation based on what sector a person works in and/or their ideology, I suggest you drop that line.

    Public sector employees are paid by the state and they "pay" PAYE back to the state. If I give you 10 euro and I take back 2 euro then I am giving you 8 euro. It is a joke to suggest public sector people pay PAYE and even if they do they should not because we have to pay interest on the money we borrow to pay them.

    It would be cheaper to borrow less and just give them 100% of smaller salaries. It is also more efficient not to give the public sector money and then take it back (albeit on paper) because that just creates a lot of unnecessary paperwork for civil servants we don`t really need.


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    #76
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Hawkeye123 wrote: »
    Public sector employees are paid by the state and they "pay" PAYE back to the state. If I give you 10 euro and I take back 2 euro then I am giving you 8 euro. It is a joke to suggest public sector people pay PAYE and even if they do they should not because we have to pay interest on the money we borrow to pay them.

    It would be cheaper to borrow less and just give them 100% of smaller salaries. It is also more efficient not to give the public sector money and then take it back (albeit on paper) because that just creates a lot of unnecessary paperwork for civil servants we don`t really need.

    A rather shallow reading of the whole arrangement.

    I note you're now arguing for a two tier tax system.

    "even if they do" - you've proof of PAYE avoidance in the public sector? Lets see it please.


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    #77
    Hawkeye123
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Hawkeye123


    Nodin wrote: »
    A rather shallow reading of the whole arrangement.

    I note you're now arguing for a two tier tax system.

    "even if they do" - you've proof of PAYE avoidance in the public sector? Lets see it please.

    You are assuming the Public sector people pay PAYE in the first place. I repeat my former reason why that does not happen: If I give you 10 euro and then take back 2, then I am giving you 8 euro. Therefore the public sector people only pay pretend taxes.

    When I say "even if they do pay PAYE..." I am not suggesting that they are trying to avail of tax avoidance loopholes or attempt tax evasion tactics for that matter. When I say "even if the do pay ..." I am presupposing that the tax is actually added to and then withdrawn from the salaries of the public sector employees. I then follow by explaining that this procedure is both wasteful and inefficient.

    I do not know why you think I am arguing for a two tier tax system. On the contrary, I believe there should be only one tax band. Higher tax bands are unfair to high earners.


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    #78
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Hawkeye123 wrote: »
    You are assuming the Public sector people pay PAYE in the first place. I repeat my former reason why that does not happen: If I give you 10 euro and then take back 2, then I am giving you 8 euro. Therefore the public sector people only pay pretend taxes..

    No, they pay taxes the same way every other PAYE worker does.


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    #79
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Hawkeye123 wrote: »
    You are assuming the Public sector people pay PAYE in the first place. I repeat my former reason why that does not happen: If I give you 10 euro and then take back 2, then I am giving you 8 euro. Therefore the public sector people only pay pretend taxes.

    They very much pay taxes, that isn't pretend, monopoly money. They work, pay taxes, PRSI, pension levies and USC, get tax refunds, pay tax under payments.

    At this stage I really don't know what this thread is about, it touchs so many topics. A blog or Facebook maybe more ideal if you just want to put random thoughts out there.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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