Questions on Nationalism and the right.

Lockstep

Count Dooku wrote: »

I mean that if Hitler didn't destroy corporations, it doesn't make him right wing, even if left whingers don't agree with it
Main purpose of socialism is to make poor richer rather than make rich poorer

No, he had no inclination towards socialism or improving the lot of the poor. While there were initially socialists in the NSDAP, these were quickly sidelined or executed (Rohm, Drexler, the Strasser brothers) as socialism went against what Hitler was trying to do; creating a stable and powerful state.

Nazism was neither right, nor left wing. It was a poisonous concoction of nationalism.

Dubhlinner

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

All things being relative, Sinn Fein are the extreme left and Fine Gael in centre left. I wound consider myself a centrist to the right of Fine Gael, Fianna Fail and the former PDs but to the left of the Nazis for example.

no all things relative Sinn Fein are centre left. Maybe a notch more left than labour. Thy believe in the free market and private ownership ie not extreme left.

Socialist party left wing alliance and Eirigi are extreme left. SDLP 2 Sinn Fein are good constitutional nationalists after the FF vote now.

Dubhlinner

In answer to the OP. Ireland since its foundation never developed the traditional right/left wing split because we had a tribal split instead: Fianna Fail/Fine Gael rivalry.

Therefore politicians never needed to get too political. It was all about personalities

Hawkeye123

whitelines wrote: »

Sinn Fein and other such groups in Ireland are the direct equivalent of 'far right' nationalist parties elsewhere. The term 'far right' is not generally applied to figures such as Thatcher or Reagan or Bush, but rather to ethno-centric parties who in general oppose unfettered free market capitalism, generally preferring some sort of state control over the corporate sector. In this they present a 'third way', neither capitalism or socialism.

It is surprising how many Irish people don't seem to recognise Sinn Fein in this picture. To any educated outsider, it is clear as day.

Sinn Fein are nationalists but by their own admission they are also socialists. To be Right (in every meaning of the word) one must be a Capitalist.

Hawkeye123

Count Dooku wrote: »

I mean that if Hitler didn't destroy corporations, it doesn't make him right wing, even if left whingers don't agree with it
Main purpose of socialism is to make poor richer rather than make rich poorer

I know a lot of jealous socialists who are so hell bent on bringing down capitalism they are oblivious to the fact that they are chopping off the hand that feeds them.

Canvasser

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

I know a lot of jealous socialists who are so hell bent on bringing down capitalism they are oblivious to the fact that they are chopping off the hand that feeds them.

Or the hand that beats them.

alastair

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

Sinn Fein are nationalists but by their own admission they are also socialists. To be Right (in every meaning of the word) one must be a Capitalist.

SF aren't a party of the right for sure.
Neither are they a socialist party. They're a (notionally) Social Democratic party with a large whack of non-ideological populism - despite the socialist rhetoric.
They're firmly embedded in the capitalist economy - albeit with the constraints on pure free-marketism that are typical of social democratic systems.

So - left of centre to a degree. 'Far left'? Not in your nelly. Judge them by their actions in government in NI.

guinnessdrinker

I would say the closest we have currently to a right wing party could be one of the Irish Unionist Partys. DUP perhaps?

Duggys Housemate

Canvasser wrote: »

Stop your nonsense. The NAZI party was extremely anti-marxist. Socialism comes from marxism. You are getting confused because of the name Drexler gave the party before Hitler took over and moulded it into a right wing nationalist party. And the nazis did not lock up their right wing political opponents usually. Franz Von Papen for example continued to have a successful political and diplomatic career in NAZI Germany. It was a right wing coalition that made Hitler Chancellor afterall. The socialist and communist parties opposed him.

Where does the idea that socialism comes from Marxism come from? It is one of the strands of socialism, thats all.

whitelines

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

I would say the closest we have currently to a right wing party could be one of the Irish Unionist Partys. DUP perhaps?

I would say The UUP. It was for years aligned with The Conservative party and still flirts with them. Not far right, just traditional right of centre. Having said that, it has some leftists within it - centre left.

The DUP is hard to pin down. Sure, it's right of centre socially, but where does it stand on economic matters? Harder to say. Reminds me of FF and FG. Religion is central to it.

TUV is really an extension of The DUP.

Chazz Michael Michaels

Not a fan of simplistic 'left/right' divisions but, the reason there is no 'right wing' party in Ireland is because, typically, those types of parties would call for smaller government, lower taxes and lower spending, etc. I believe there is a cultural need amongst the Irish to have a 'father/mother figure' taking care of everything, as well as a scapegoat to blame when things go wrong. First it was the British, then the Catholic Church and now it's the government. The thought of us Irish taking responsibility for ourselves is simply too much, and thus right wing parties (in a libertarian sense) will never, ever, ever succeed.

Nodin

whitelines wrote: »

I would say The UUP. It was for years aligned with The Conservative party and still flirts with them. Not far right, just traditional right of centre. Having said that, it has some leftists within it - centre left.

The DUP is hard to pin down. Sure, it's right of centre socially, but where does it stand on economic matters? Harder to say. Reminds me of FF and FG. Religion is central to it.

TUV is really an extension of The DUP.

I asked you a question here...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79928058&postcount=18
if you'd be good enough to get back to me.....

Duggys Housemate

Nodin wrote: »

I asked you a question here...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79928058&postcount=18
if you'd be good enough to get back to me.....

Surely the claim to the North is ethnic historically. It would hardly be made, would it, if the place were historically English.

Nodin

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Surely the claim to the North is ethnic historically. It would hardly be made, would it, if the place were historically English.

Thats not what he was stating.

Dubhlinner

whitelines wrote: »

I would say The UUP. It was for years aligned with The Conservative party and still flirts with them. Not far right, just traditional right of centre. Having said that, it has some leftists within it - centre left.

The DUP is hard to pin down. Sure, it's right of centre socially, but where does it stand on economic matters? Harder to say. Reminds me of FF and FG. Religion is central to it.

TUV is really an extension of The DUP.

Agree with this analysis. Also I think Alliance party would be economically right wing if they were in a normal country.

Canvasser

Dubhlinner wrote: »

Agree with this analysis. Also I think Alliance party would be economically right wing if they were in a normal country.

The alliance party are a right wing liberal party. They support lower corporation tax, lower taxes on the rich and privatisation of public services. They are like the PDs.

COYW

Dubhlinner wrote: »

no all things relative Sinn Fein are centre left. Maybe a notch more left than labour. Thy believe in the free market and private ownership ie not extreme left.

Not so sure about that. In their manifesto, SF stated that they would like to have a public company in each sector.

We have a serious imbalance in politics with a glut of parties stuck in or around the centre. FF/FG are a little to the right but are moving towards the centre. Labour are a little to the left but moving closer to the centre as time passes. SF and the rest are further to the left than Labour. From the right of centre (FF/FG) to the far right, we have absolutely nothing.

Hawkeye123

If one rejects all that is not Gaelic, Celtic and Catholic then the alliance Party are not Irish in the purest sense. Similarly, the PDs were west Brit in their perspective. Were these parties to be nationalist in their outlook they would conform to the norms of the National Right. Granted ethnic cleansing is an abomination and no right thinking person would advocate such a thing but there is certainly good and just grounds to consider a policy of cultural cleansing on the Island of Ireland. Why for example, should we preserve Georgian and Edwardian buildings when they are not part of our culture and when these buildings are already represented in England and lots of other places around the world. Similarly why waste the time of our students and the resources of our country teaching Shakespeare when the subject has no practical use in the modern world and no cultural benefit to anyone other than the English.

Shea O'Meara

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

The initial thrust of this thread was a question: Why are Irish Nationalists generally left wing like the sinners but as you move to the center parties like Fine Gael the nationalism has given way to a kind of sycophantic west brit pseudo-nationalism. Why for instance, do we not have a party which is vehemently nationalist but also uncompromisingly capitalist.

It's quite simple. If there was money in it, capitalist right wing folk would be all over nationalism. People driven by money go were the money is. If its profitable to cosy up to Britain they will. They'll condemn China on the one hand, accept the cheque with the other.

There's no money in a united Ireland, so you'll only find left leaning folk who claim to put people over profit pushing for it. The money hungry folk, like FFail will only pay it lip service if theres a vote in it. Bertie would wet himself with excitment if offered a KBE.

In my view nobody needs a right wing anything, unless of course you're up to your neck in it and making a fortune off the backs of everyone else.

Hawkeye123

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

It's quite simple. If there was money in it, capitalist right wing folk would be all over nationalism. People driven by money go were the money is. If its profitable to cosy up to Britain they will. They'll condemn China on the one hand, accept the cheque with the other.

There's no money in a united Ireland, so you'll only find left leaning folk who claim to put people over profit pushing for it. The money hungry folk, like FFail will only pay it lip service if theres a vote in it. Bertie would wet himself with excitment if offered a KBE.

In my view nobody needs a right wing anything, unless of course you're up to your neck in it and making a fortune off the backs of everyone else.

This is an interesting interpretation Shea. As a capitalist and a nationalist my gut instinct is that the reason Irish capitalists shy away from nationalism is cultural rather than out of self interest. The Cromwellian invaders took our land leaving us nothing and their descendants are present day Irish with west brit sympathies.

If the real Irish believe the Cromwellians had every right to steal our country then their poverty mentality is understandable. Those of us who have never accepted the legal claim of the Cromwellians or their descendants to our land have a different outlook. We see ourselves as being wealthy even if we are not.

Canvasser

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

This is an interesting interpretation Shea. As a capitalist and a nationalist my gut instinct is that the reason Irish capitalists shy away from nationalism is cultural rather than out of self interest. The Cromwellian invaders took our land leaving us nothing and their descendants are present day Irish with west brit sympathies.

If the real Irish believe the Cromwellians had every right to steal our country then their poverty mentality is understandable. Those of us who have never accepted the legal claim of the Cromwellians or their descendants to our land have a different outlook. We see ourselves as being wealthy even if we are not.

Capitalism is not natural to Ireland. It was forced upon us by the British colonisers. Capitalism and pro-Britishness go together.

Sergeant

Canvasser wrote: »

Capitalism is not natural to Ireland. It was forced upon us by the British colonisers. Capitalism and pro-Britishness go together.

Could you share with us your vision of how Ireland would be without the oppressive yoke of capitalism around her neck? Or even elucidate on how capitalism and 'pro-Britishness' are intrinsically linked?

Canvasser

Sergeant wrote: »

Could you share with us your vision of how Ireland would be without the oppressive yoke of capitalism around her neck? Or even elucidate on how capitalism and 'pro-Britishness' are intrinsically linked?

It's impossible to say what Ireland would be like today if a non-capitalist power had come to dominate the world.

And as I said there was no capitalism in Ireland before it was forced upon us by the British.

Nodin

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

If one rejects all that is not Gaelic, Celtic and Catholic then the alliance Party are not Irish in the purest sense. Similarly, the PDs were west Brit in their perspective. Were these parties to be nationalist in their outlook they would conform to the norms of the National Right. Granted ethnic cleansing is an abomination and no right thinking person would advocate such a thing but there is certainly good and just grounds to consider a policy of cultural cleansing on the Island of Ireland. Why for example, should we preserve Georgian and Edwardian buildings when they are not part of our culture and when these buildings are already represented in England and lots of other places around the world. Similarly why waste the time of our students and the resources of our country teaching Shakespeare when the subject has no practical use in the modern world and no cultural benefit to anyone other than the English.

A bizarre advocacy for some sort of cultural taleban.

Shea O'Meara

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

This is an interesting interpretation Shea. As a capitalist and a nationalist my gut instinct is that the reason Irish capitalists shy away from nationalism is cultural rather than out of self interest. The Cromwellian invaders took our land leaving us nothing and their descendants are present day Irish with west brit sympathies.

If the real Irish believe the Cromwellians had every right to steal our country then their poverty mentality is understandable. Those of us who have never accepted the legal claim of the Cromwellians or their descendants to our land have a different outlook. We see ourselves as being wealthy even if we are not.

I thought we were discussing politicians not people?
Most politicians are generational inbred politicos; in it by birth and only interested in maintaining power and money. If there's no money or votes in being nationalist, they won't pipe up about it.
Culturally, everybody including loyalists know the full island of Ireland makes the country. It's geographical. To deny Ireland in it's natural state based on culture is a little silly, capitalist or no.
I've always said that if the tables were turned we'd probably be no kinder to the British than they were to us. Look at the self centered fraudsters we've had heading our nation. So I really don't think, at this point, Cromwell or whether or not we see ourselves as capitalists plays a role in our being nationalist of not. It's about current self interest. I mean anyone with any inherited wealth is living off stolen profits if you look deep enough.
I see myself as being Irish from the country Ireland and all the culture and art that comes with it, regardless of any passing British fad in parts of the North.

Hawkeye123

Canvasser wrote: »

Capitalism is not natural to Ireland. It was forced upon us by the British colonisers. Capitalism and pro-Britishness go together.

There are plenty of capitalist countries which have never been invaded by the British. Even if capitalism were a British invention that in itself would not be a reason to reject it.

Every successful civilization from the Roman Empire to present day Asian tiger economies have thrived by learning from other successful nations.

Shea O'Meara

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

There are plenty of capitalist countries which have never been invaded by the British. Even if capitalism were a British invention that in itself would not be a reason to reject it.

Every successful civilization from the Roman Empire to present day Asian tiger economies have thrived by learning from other successful nations.

And when capitalism falls on its arse it turns to socialism for a hand out

Hawkeye123

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

And when capitalism falls on its arse it turns to socialism for a hand out

Lest we forget, it is capitalists who pay for socialism in the first place. It should also be pointed out that capitalism can withstand almost anything except the incompetence of public sector bodies like our own financial regulator.

Duggys Housemate

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

And when capitalism falls on its arse it turns to socialism for a hand out

Lest we forget, it is capitalists who pay for socialism in the first place. It should also be pointed out that capitalism can withstand almost anything except the incompetence of public sector bodies like our own financial regulator.

Why would a perfect self-regulating system need a regulator in the first place?

Canvasser

Hawkeye123 wrote: »

Lest we forget, it is capitalists who pay for socialism in the first place. It should also be pointed out that capitalism can withstand almost anything except the incompetence of public sector bodies like our own financial regulator.

That doesn't even makes sense. You clearly have no idea what socialism is.