Ambulance behind, red light, what's your move?

cormie

Caught this the other day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnMv0ZaYhgA

Pretty shocking in my own view, if that was me, I'd be slowly pulling into the oncoming traffic (even though there was absolutely no need and the small car could have just pulled a little left). I know it would technically be breaking the law and breaking a red light, but I think it's worth it in the case where somebodies life could be in danger due to vital seconds.

christmas2012

still risky move if the guards were around i dunno..

clappyhappy

Should have moved, bit irresponsible in my view. The other car really pulled out of the way.

corktina

Id have broken the lights without hesitation...no Gard would do you for it.

Alanstrainor

Silly driving is what that is, I would have broken the lights.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

christmas2012 wrote: »

still risky move if the guards were around i dunno..

true. the garda can do you for running a red light even though your doing something good

but I'd hate to think of what's in the back of the ambulance.

I've being in the situation before like that on a three way junction but I pulled out and over to th left against the herb to let it by but had to keep going once it passed me to not block the junction much.

I guess it could depend on the garda but I reckon most would probably appreciate you getting out if the way even if it us illegal.

CiniO

It's really shocking.

qz

Other driver to the right of the ambulance (from the ambulance's point of view) had it right - get the fcuk out of the way.

stoneill

Is that Newlands Cross? - plenty of room at the lights there to pull out of the way without being in the flow of cross traffic.

OldmanMondeo

The Ka (i think) should have pulled in front of the jeep, then the ambulance would have got through. I had a similar instance a few weeks ago, I was on the right had side waiting for lights to let me proceed straight, traffic on left was for turning left, I pulled in front of the first car on left and let ambulance continue. Soon as light changed I was able to get back into the correct lane no problem.

Some people just don't think.

It certainly looks from the angle that there was plenty of room for the car to get out of the way without putting itself in the path of traffic coming from its left.

Regardless, I would have broken the red light. For some reason I have hearing very sensitive to sirens, I hear them for ages so I usually look in my mirrors and have anticipated what move I need to make before the vehicle is on top of me. I've seen some awful gobshytes panicking and actually hindering instead of helping ambulances.

eringobragh

Common sense really should prevail here :mad:

Big Nasty

Where do ya get them curved wipers from cormie?

dr.fuzzenstein

corktina wrote: »

Id have broken the lights without hesitation...no Gard would do you for it.

Absolutely. The question is, do I obey the exact letter of the law, or do I move out of the way in any way I can to let the ambulance through.
The law was created to serve the people, not the other way round. As soon as the law becomes more important than people, you have a farce, like the lifeguard who was sacked for saving a drowning man.
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/americas/lifeguard-sacked-after-saving-drowning-man-outside-his-beach-patrol-3159866.html
That should remind us that in the end people have to be more important than the letter of the law.
Anyone would have to ask themselves the question "would I break the law to save a life?". If people started answering "no", we are in big trouble.

Of course there's always the possibility that the driver just froze with terror, I have seen it, a traffic jam in Germany with an ambulance trying to get through and an elderly driver had to be pushed out of the way by other drivers, because he was completely frozen stiff behind the wheel and unable to do anything.

cormie

Custom designed to be shaped like the V in VanTasks :P or maybe it's the fish eye playing tricks again

Stinicker

The driver should have just turned right out of the ambulances way, surely the traffic approaching from his left would have seen it and left him go, even if there was a guard nearby and he was thick enough to summons the driver for it, No judge would ever convict him for doing the morally right thing.

Nissan doctor

There is not reason that the car couldn't have moved forward enough to clear space for the ambulance and there is no intelligent cop who will do you for moving a cars length over the line to allow an ambulance through.


A few years back I did just that in front of a Garda car. they were beside me and had a couple of cars behind them, I had none behind me so the ambulance came into my lane. I just pulled across the line in front of the Garda car. In that situation I was never worried that they would pull me.

Pulling away and going through the junction, as mentioned above, would be daft as you are putting yourself and others in danger. There is no danger in just moving forward or across to let the ambulance past.

Mycroft H

That driver needs a good smacking. There is plenty of room to nudge a bit forward and let the ambulance thorough. Trying to rush to Tallaght Hosp by the looks of things. There needs to be a law to make it an offence to obstruct an emergency vehicle.

cormie

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Pulling away and going through the junction, as mentioned above, would be daft as you are putting yourself and others in danger. There is no danger in just moving forward or across to let the ambulance past.

I think as long as the oncoming drivers realise what's going on this is the best action to take in a situation where there's a number of cars behind you and no other option but to go straight on along with a few more cars with each pulling in to let the ambulance pass, then going through the junction so you're not all causing an obstruction for the other cars. Again, I'd have no problem nudging forward to let other oncoming cars realise what's intended...

Ghost Train

Looks like car could have pulled out and to the left a bit safely enough, even moving a few feet forward would have done it. Can understand somebody freezing a bit but not for so long with the ambulance right behind

Stheno

That's madness altogether, like another poster I hear sirens ages before they appear, so I'm always looking to see if they are coming up near me.

No reason that car couldn't have safely moved.

Stoolbend

As harsh as it sounds, the driver did the right thing.

That's a busy junction and you can't just drive into the path of oncoming traffic in the hope that they can react to you and the ambulance.

I'm all for getting out of the way when its safe to do so.

Blue lights alert traffic to the ambulance, but they do not give them the right to put other drivers in danger.
Legally they're not allowed to speed or break red lights.

Edit. There was only two cars in the right lane when the ambulance came to a stop. Nothing stopping them safely reversing to make room for the ambulance without putting anyone else in danger.

Alanstrainor

Stoolbend wrote: »

As harsh as it sounds, the driver did the right thing.

That's a busy junction and you can't just drive into the path of oncoming traffic in the hope that they can react to you and the ambulance.

I'm all for getting out of the way when its safe to do so.

Blue lights alert traffic to the ambulance, but they do not give them the right to put other drivers in danger.
Legally they're not allowed to speed or break red lights.

Come on, no one was expecting them to pull out into the middle of traffic, there is plenty of space to manoeuvre forward and to the side to allow the ambulance space to pass.

Bruthal

Stoolbend wrote: »

As harsh as it sounds, the driver did the right thing.

Only incompetent driver`s would think that. No shortage of them on our roads.

That's a busy junction and you can't just drive into the path of oncoming traffic in the hope that they can react to you and the ambulance.

You dont take off through the lights as if they are green, and hope the other traffic reacts. You ease you`re way forward to assist the ambulance through, and maybe the other traffic may see whats going on. You obviously dont see that as possible, so will think its not.

I'm all for getting out of the way when its safe to do so.

Blue lights alert traffic to the ambulance, but they do not give them the right to put other drivers in danger.
Legally they're not allowed to speed or break red lights.

Common sense was mentioned earlier in the thread. Its a pity its so rare.

fasttalkerchat

Same thing happened me before. I put on the hazards and hit the horn a few times and drove on. Once I got through the junction I pulled up onto the kerb to let the ambulance pass.

dr.fuzzenstein

Stoolbend wrote: »

As harsh as it sounds, the driver did the right thing.

Disagree, he did obey the letter of the law, but morally speaking it was wrong.
The person in the back of the ambulance could have internal haemorrhaging and every second to get him to hospital counts.
As I said before, there's following the letter of the law (As Ivor Callely did) and doing the right thing.
The law cannot ever be more important than the people, because the law serves the people, not the other way around.

Stoolbend

Give way if its safe to do so. Driving into a busy junction isn't safe.

If the corsa nudged forward and got clipped by someone, everyone would be saying how crazy they were.

fasttalkerchat

Stoolbend wrote: »

Give way if its safe to do so. Driving into a busy junction isn't safe.

If the corsa nudged forward and got clipped by someone, everyone would be saying how crazy they were.

If you sound the horn a few times and wait until traffic stops you will be relatively safe. The person in the back of the ambulance is clearly not safe if they need you to drive into traffic.

Stoolbend

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Same thing happened me before. I put on the hazards and hit the horn a few times and drove on. Once I got through the junction I pulled up onto the kerb to let the ambulance pass.

So putting everybody else in the junction in danger is more important than the person in the ambulance?

bmstuff

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Disagree, he did obey the letter of the law, but morally speaking it was wrong.
.

It is not even a moral issue, it is the law to give way to emergency vehicles. End of.
It would have been the Garda behind the guy would have moved or would have been moved.
This driver should not be on the road period.

bmstuff

Stoolbend wrote: »

So putting everybody else in the junction in danger is more important than the person in the ambulance?

Nobody asked him to drive in the middle of the junction, just to give way to the emergency vehicle. Once the ambulance would have moved forward, everybody would have given way...well in theory

Stoolbend

bmstuff wrote: »

It is not even a moral issue, it is the law to give way to emergency vehicles. End of.
It would have been the Garda behind the guy would have moved or would have been moved.
This driver should not be on the road period.

When safe to do so!

Bruthal

Stoolbend wrote: »

When safe to do so!

It was safe to do so in the situation here, move slowly forward, and possibly to the side.

If you think that is too dangerous, and that normal everyday driving has no risk, then you best indulge in danger free driving in future, perhaps on the PS3.

jimmyw

As others have said breaking the law has to be done in the case of an emergency.I do think both drivers could have done more like the jeep that was to the left could have moved to the front of the traffic lights, even though it would be a risky position and the other driver could have straightened up a bit more.Both vehicles were jeeps so were well capable of mounting kerbs.

I don't think a Garda or a Judge if it went that far would prosecute anyone in that type of situation.

I do suspect possibly that the ambulance did not make any effort to force either of them to move too, so might it have been possible that the nature was not entirely a life or death situation and so decided to just sit it out? The angle could be a bit deceiving.

I dont know I could be talking rubbish

Stoolbend

Why didn't the two on the right reverse though?

Perfectly safe to do.

Nissan doctor

Stoolbend wrote: »

When safe to do so!

Christ, junctions that size(or any proper junction) are not designed in such a way that the traffic is passing two inches in front of the line you stop at. There is more then ample room for a car to pull a cars length in front of the white line and still not be in the flow of traffic!


And whoever looked at a video of a driver clearly incapable of reacting to a pretty basic and common situation and said they did the right thing is clearly of the same mindset.

Dartz

robbie7730 wrote: »

Common sense was mentioned earlier in the thread. Its a pity its so rare.

Common sense means nothing in the eyes of the law.


At times I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or not. It's not easy to pull out into crossing traffic. You have to trust the other drivers not to be absolute gob****es aswell. In general, it's a hard call to make, especially in a small car like a Ka.

Does the risk of getting ploughed out of it by some goit not paying attention outweigh the risk to whatever's in the back of the ambulance?

Traffic crossing from the right doesn't seem to be slowing down much either.


On another note, isn't there a system that automatically triggers junctions to favour ambulances and emergency vehicles and the like? I remember hearing about it.

Bruthal

Stoolbend wrote: »

Why didn't the two on the right reverse though?

Perfectly safe to do.

The car in front of the ambulance had plenty of room to move forward a car length or near enough.

fasttalkerchat

Stoolbend wrote: »

So putting everybody else in the junction in danger is more important than the person in the ambulance?

If all cars are stopped the danger you create would have happened if the ambulance was at the front of the traffic.

If they decide that they need to move through a busy junction I would take their word for it that it is urgent.

frankled

I would happily break the law in a more extreme instance than this if it was the difference between life and death of a person, etc. This person barely had to move another inch. Madness.

Bruthal

Dartz wrote: »

Common sense means nothing in the eyes of the law.


At times I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or not. It's not easy to pull out into crossing traffic. You have to trust the other drivers not to be absolute gob****es aswell. In general, it's a hard call to make, especially in a small car like a Ka.

Many drivers see moving forward at all on clear roads as a hard call to make. And when they have such difficulty, they have their own legitimate reasons, even if they baffle the competent drivers.

Does the risk of getting ploughed out of it by some goit not paying attention outweigh the risk to whatever's in the back of the ambulance?

Not much risk of that if that car moves a car length forward. If other drivers are not paying attention, then the risks of being ploughed out of it while driving are not limited to that junction or the scenario in this thread.

If we are to take you`re view, then no ambulances would be able to get through red lights, as the risk of getting ploughed out of it would be too high. If the ambulance sirens are on, and that car moves forward a little, its not a massive danger.

Traffic crossing from the right doesn't seem to be slowing down much either.

For that car to move forward a little, its traffic from the left (their right) they have to think of, and that was stopped at the time of this video. I doubt there was much risk of them cars suddenly racing forward and into the side of that car thats trying to clear the way for an ambulance, even if they had moved forward further than needed to allow the ambulance through.

Did the ambulance have the sirens on is another question. If it did, and that car sat motionless, then its complete incompetence worthy of our roads.

Mycroft H

Stoolbend wrote: »

Blue lights alert traffic to the ambulance, but they do not give them the right to put other drivers in danger.
Legally they're not allowed to speed or break red lights.

Your very wrong in that regard.

Road Traffic Act 2004

27—Requirements under the Road Traffic Acts 1961 to 2004 relating to vehicles and requirements, restrictions and prohibitions relating to the driving and use of vehicles, other than those provided under sections 49 and 50 (inserted by sections 10 and 11, respectively, of the Act of 1994), 51A and 52 (inserted by sections 49 and 50, respectively, of the Act of 1968) and 53 of the Principal Act and sections 12, 13, 14 and 15 of the Act of 1994, do not apply to a driver of a fire brigade vehicle, an ambulance or the use by a member of the Garda Síochána of a vehicle in the performance of the duties of that member or a person driving or using a vehicle under the direction of a member of the Garda Síochána, where such use does not endanger the safety of road users.

In laymans terms, Ambulances, members of AGS and Fire Brigade appliances are exempt from all requirements under the Road traffic act in the course of their duties apart from:

Sections 10-15 of the 1994 Road Traffic Act. Which covers driving under the influence etc.

Sections 49-50 of the 1969 Road Traffic Act. This covers dangerous and careless driving.

focus_mad

It's happened to me in the past wuth me being the first car at the lights, hazards on and slowly pull out through the intersection with the ambulance close on me tail! Everyone else stopped so it was ok.

UDP

There seems to be a lot of unfairness thrown at the car in question in this thread judging the driver in a black and white way.

It looks to me like the car in question did move forward as far as not going into the junction as soon as the ambulance approached. Also the driver moved forward before the SUV beside them even reacted and moved up onto the curb so there was no way of him/her knowing how the SUV was going to move. In fairness it looks like a high enough curb too and the car appears to be just a cinquecento or the likes.

Also while I would have risked turning on the hazzard lights and edging my way out until there was enough space for the ambulance to pass I can understand how someone in a very small car would be reluctant to do so onto a busy junction in such wet conditions.

Mint Sauce

Looking at it and watching it twice, the black car in front of the ambulance has moved as far forward as he could without moving into the part of traffic coming accross his path, and the silver car in the other lane has mounted the kerb to try and give him room.

Cant see them doing more without endangering them selfs or others road users.

galwaytt

Stoolbend wrote: »

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Same thing happened me before. I put on the hazards and hit the horn a few times and drove on. Once I got through the junction I pulled up onto the kerb to let the ambulance pass.

So putting everybody else in the junction in danger is more important than the person in the ambulance?

If the persons spatial relationship skills are so poor that they cant pull forward just enough to let the ambulance pass, yet not put the car in others harms way, then, frankly, they shouldn't be driving in tge first place. HTF do they cope passing, say, cyclists....?
They should actually get points on their licence for impeding emergency traffic/failing to give way/not making progress.

frankled

galwaytt wrote: »

If the persons spatial relationship skills are so poor that they cant pull forward just enough to let the ambulance pass, yet not put the car in others harms way, then, frankly, they shouldn't be driving in tge first place. HTF do they cope passing, say, cyclists....?
They should actually get points on their licence for impeding emergency traffic/failing to give way/not making progress.

Couldn't agree more. I do understand that it is Newland's Cross. And I get it that it was a wet day. But still. They just have to move an inch. I also think that if space was so tight here (which it's not) they could put on hazards/creep out super-slow and people would avoid them. It's not as if the traffic wouldn't notice the really loud siren and the very obvious flashing lights behind the little car poking out. We're talking about seconds here between life and death.

galwaytt

robbie7730 wrote: »

Did the ambulance have the sirens on is another question. If it did, and that car sat motionless, then its complete incompetence worthy of our roads.

Are you saying you can't hear them on thst clip ? I clearly can. On tge 'net. From tge cab of a van on tge opposite side if tge junction, with sound from a minuscule mic on a camera......there us No way thst driver didn't hear them.........barring actual deafness, that is....

David09

I was in that exact same place, at the Newland's cross traffic lights a few weeks ago. I was turning right fro Tallaght when the c**k in an Audi (who had been tailgating me all the way up the N7) sat there, yapping on his phone with a screaming ambulance right behind him, refusing to budge.

It's the exact same scene as I witnessed only with different cars.

Looking at the footage, it looks like the driver has loooooads of room to move forward. However, it's worth pointing out that the camera in the Vantask van seems to be nearly stuck to the window (yet with an almost 180 degree viewing angle).

Therefore, I'd assume it's an extremely wide angle lens. These lenses tend to distort/depress the scene in front of them, so although it looks like the driver has loads of room, he may actually not have had that much at all.


I'm not defending the driver's actions, now, and I firmly believe there's not a Garda in the world that'd do you for breaking a red light in that situation, but I don't think it's entirely fair to criticise the driver.

You're not obliged to move from in front of an emergency vehicle. Driver of the car in front obviously thought it was an unsafe move. If he'd pulled out and caused a pile-up, this thread would be very different. If he felt he wasn't competent enough to pull off such a move, then it's better for everyone that he doesn't attempt it.

zenno

That was painful to watch. There was plenty of room for that driver to move out or just break the light and move over. Happened to me before in drumcondra, there was no space to move over anywhere so i just whacked on my hazards and broke the red lights when i seen a good gap in traffic and then moved over. I couldn't care less if the gardai done me for it as someone could have been dying.