Ridiculous arguments for believing

lawnmower_man

Pushtrak wrote: »

If the thin veneer of religion is what is stopping a person from committing a violent crime then that is a person we as a society should be worried about. Doesn't sound like a stable personality. In fact, I'd encourage such people to get help.

Is it not your point of view? If not, what is to your mind homophobic?

Look up the history of marriage. Seriously. "One man, one woman" isn't the 'way its always been' at all.

There is nothing wrong with not following your religion too and people having the freedom not to be limited to the doctrines of your religion.

What are you talking about if not the legalities? Some blessed by god, divine aspect is of no concern to I'd assume most in this conversation. It is all about those not of your religion having the freedom not to be restricted by the dictates of your fairy tales.

Infertile couple has already been brought up.

Natural? We are human, so anything humans do is natural. That's how it works. Natural... Natural disasters? Unnatural, I suppose you will refuse medical treatments on the grounds of them being "unnatural" will you? Natural is not a yardstick for good/desirable.

If you vote against the rights of other people, what exactly do you think you are doing?

your looking at the issue from a middle class western perspective , not everyone is in a possition to see a therapist

Corkfeen

lawnmower_man wrote: »

that is indeed very possible but is another arguement entirely , their are many decent god fearing people who abstain from committing violent acts due to fear of punishment when they die

They're not decent people if the only thing that's preventing them from murdering is fear of punishment from a deity...... They are either disturbed beyond measure or exceedingly evil if that is how their limits are defined.

bluewolf wrote: »

maybe not

http://blog.themonastery.org/2011/06/did-the-early-church-perform-same-sex-weddings/

This may be another one of those scenarios where certain posters choose to ignore any evidence put before them.:pac:

GarIT

lawnmower_man wrote: »

anyway , you,ve already discredited yourself with that absurd statement about how the catholic church is in favour of the death penalty for the crime of bein gay

I have discredited myself? What evidence do you have to say that? Have you even read the bible? The bible says that homosexuals should get the death penalty.

The RCC is liberal? Its members think they can be liberal but the church is extremely strict.

Explain to me how you believe you were created by a god but you disagree with your gods opnion on homosexuality? What logic can bring you to that conclusion?

Have you read what I asked about confessionalist religions? What are your conclusions on that?

How can you have an arguement by just ignoring the things that will show you to be wrong? Why do you believe in a religion that will not allow you into heaven unless you honestly believe in all its teachings?

Pushtrak

lawnmower_man wrote: »

your looking at the issue from a middle class western perspective , not everyone is in a possition to see a therapist

I know if I were of a mind like you are proposing here, I'd be turning myself in to a psychiatric ward for professional help. I don't think the lack of paying for private professional help would be a big detriment to such persons getting aid, but am open to correction on the point.

GarIT

lawnmower_man wrote: »

That is indeed very possible but is another arguement entirely , their are many decent god fearing people who abstain from committing violent acts due to fear of punishment when they die

So when religion saves lives it is a brilliant point but when religion kills people its another arguement entirely? Typical catholic, things their point is good and sticks their fingers in their ears and says lalalalala when someone else makes a point. Just like you ignored and failed to address any of my points.

so what do you think of either god or homosexuality having to be wrong?

lawnmower_man

Corkfeen wrote: »

They're not decent people if the only thing that's preventing them from murdering is fear of punishment from a deity...... They are either disturbed beyond measure or exceedingly evil if that is how their limits are defined.


This may be another one of those scenarios where certain posters choose to ignore any evidence put before them.:pac:

oh my , you really have had a charmed existance , havent you , the world is full of inexplicable evil and horror and you sit there and self rightously declare that everyone should simply get over it

lawnmower_man

GarIT wrote: »

I have discredited myself? What evidence do you have to say that? Have you even read the bible? The bible says that homosexuals should get the death penalty.

The RCC is liberal? Its members think they can be liberal but the church is extremely strict.

Explain to me how you believe you were created by a god but you disagree with your gods opnion on homosexuality? What logic can bring you to that conclusion?

Have you read what I asked about confessionalist religions? What are your conclusions on that?

How can you have an arguement by just ignoring the things that will show you to be wrong? Why do you believe in a religion that will not allow you into heaven unless you honestly believe in all its teachings?

stop focusing on catholicism and you might have a chance of earning some credibility , any number of protestant denominations take every bit of a hardline when it comes to homosexuality as the catholic church , im athiest myself but it annoys me how the catholic church is fair game for trashing while equally intollerant religons get off scot free

and to reiterate , you falsely claimed earlier that the catholic church supports the death penalty for homosexuals , you need to retract that false statement , the catholic church is opposed to the death penalty unconditionally

lawnmower_man

Pushtrak wrote: »

I know if I were of a mind like you are proposing here, I'd be turning myself in to a psychiatric ward for professional help. I don't think the lack of paying for private professional help would be a big detriment to such persons getting aid, but am open to correction on the point.

so you think therapists are easily accesible on the congo or sudan,s version of the NHS :rolleyes:

honestwork

I wonder will the human race evolve to the point where all religion is seen for what it is, a complete nonsence. All of us have a responsibility to wean ourselves and our children off these blind beliefs that have no positive purpose.

Corkfeen

lawnmower_man wrote: »

oh my , you really have had a charmed existance , havent you , the world is full of inexplicable evil and horror and you sit there and self rightously declare that everyone should simply get over it

So a person who would kill if they didn't believe in god, isn't a person that needs mental help? I never said they should simply get over it, in fact I said they were in need of psychological help if this was the only thing preventing someone from killing. I couldn't care less if a person practices a religion as long as it doesn't impact upon the freedom of others. But in the scenario where it is the only thing that prevents them from murdering, there is a severe issue there and such a volatile situation should not be simply dealt with via belief in omnipotent beings (who are rather genocidal themselves.)

lawnmower_man

Corkfeen wrote: »

So a person who would kill if they didn't believe in god, isn't a person that needs mental help? I never said they should simply get over it, in fact I said they were in need of psychological help if this was the only thing preventing someone from killing. I couldn't care less if a person practices a religion as long as it doesn't impact upon the freedom of others. But in the scenario where it is the only thing that prevents them from murdering, there is a severe issue there and such a volatile situation should not be simply dealt with via belief in omnipotent beings (who are rather genocidal themselves.)

if someone grows up in a savage enviroment where they witness murder and extreme violence , the only way to get ahead is often through brutality , im not talking about people who live in manhattan or even mullingar , professional psychological help is a pipe dream , what the hell good is a nice talk from doctor melfi if your refugeee camp is raised to the ground by the time you arrive home , like the prison deterant , some people believe that by forgiving and the like , god will reward them , my point is that this is a possitive thing in the main

if pushed hard enough , everyone has it in them to kill , dont kid yourself into thinking otherwise , history tells us otherwise

Corkfeen

lawnmower_man wrote: »

if someone grows up in a savage enviroment where they witness murder and extreme violence , the only way to get ahead is often through brutality , im not talking about people who live in manhattan or even mullingar , professional psychological help is a pipe dream , what the hell good is a nice talk from doctor melfi if your refugeee camp is raised to the ground by the time you arrive home , like the prison deterant , some people believe that by forgiving and the like , god will reward them , my point is that this is a possitive thing in the main

if pushed hard enough , everyone has it in them to kill , dont kid yourself into thinking otherwise , history tells us otherwise

One example of such positive influences....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army
and some more info on their religiosity.
http://documents.nytimes.com/religious-beliefs-of-joseph-konys-lords-resistance-army


Ohh wait... So that would be making people kill in the name of god in African nations rather than it preventing them from. While I know not every person are murdering other people in Africa, to say it doesn't have negative repercussions in many of these places is a bit odd, plus the lack of condoms being distributed in many regions due to religiosity is hardly helping the aids situation..

GarIT

lawnmower_man wrote: »

GarIT wrote: »

I have discredited myself? What evidence do you have to say that? Have you even read the bible? The bible says that homosexuals should get the death penalty.

The RCC is liberal? Its members think they can be liberal but the church is extremely strict.

Explain to me how you believe you were created by a god but you disagree with your gods opnion on homosexuality? What logic can bring you to that conclusion?

Have you read what I asked about confessionalist religions? What are your conclusions on that?

How can you have an arguement by just ignoring the things that will show you to be wrong? Why do you believe in a religion that will not allow you into heaven unless you honestly believe in all its teachings?

stop focusing on catholicism and you might have a chance of earning some credibility , any number of protestant denominations take every bit of a hardline when it comes to homosexuality as the catholic church , im athiest myself but it annoys me how the catholic church is fair game for trashing while equally intollerant religons get off scot free

and to reiterate , you falsely claimed earlier that the catholic church supports the death penalty for homosexuals , you need to retract that false statement , the catholic church is opposed to the death penalty unconditionally

I believe that I am right, I have talked to priests about this issue before, and they said that unfortunately they believe that is the stance of the RCC, the RCC doesn't shout out about half its beliefs as it would be seen as a joke just like all other religions.

If you want any credibility you should deal with some of the points that have been made instead of excuses to not answer.

God can't be real and homosexuality can't be oh at the same time so which one is right? Do you agree that it is illogical to believe both?

lawnmower_man

GarIT wrote: »

I believe that I am right, I have talked to priests about this issue before, and they said that unfortunately they believe that is the stance of the RCC, the RCC doesn't shout out about half its beliefs as it would be seen as a joke just like all other religions.

If you want any credibility you should deal with some of the points that have been made instead of excuses to not answer.

God can't be real and homosexuality can't be oh at the same time so which one is right? Do you agree that it is illogical to believe both?

il give you one thing , you have some brass neck , you come on here spouting blatant lies about the catholic church being in favour of the death penalty for homosexuals ( ala iran ) and not only do you not retract such a false statement , you remain on your high horse , demanding others step up to the plate and validate their possitions

where on earth do you get off or have i fallen for a champion troll

Pushtrak

lawnmower_man wrote: »

so you think therapists are easily accesible on the congo or sudan,s version of the NHS :rolleyes:

Good, we are getting specifics now. It is better to try to argue on specifics rather than nebulous points. Link

An "obsession" with witchcraft and sorcery led a couple to brutally murder a 15-year-old boy at a flat in east London.

Eric Bikubi, 28, and his partner Magalie Bamu, aged 29, have been convicted at the Old Bailey of killing Kristy Bamu after accusing him of being a sorcerer who practised witchcraft.

The couple, who live in Newham, acted after accusing Kristy of controlling and adversely influencing a young boy, the jury was told.

They originally came from the Democratic Republic of Congo, where witchcraft is called Kindoki, and exorcisms are carried out in some churches.

I was trying to find the same in regards Sudan, but found instead a Sudanese man in Saudi Arabia. When people are being executed on charges of witchcraft thanks to religion, one has to wonder if it is indeed all that great as a source of good. That isn't exactly related to Sudan though, so I will point out about the slave trade in Sudan.

I would say religion is more a source of harm than isolated damaged individuals who are not going to kill anyone because they think they'll be judged harshly. Any other examples you might want to bring up? Or to try bolster your position?

lawnmower_man

Pushtrak wrote: »

Good, we are getting specifics now. It is better to try to argue on specifics rather than nebulous points. [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17073332]Link[/url]

I was trying to find the same in regards Sudan, but found instead a Sudanese man in Saudi Arabia. When people are being executed on charges of witchcraft thanks to religion, one has to wonder if it is indeed all that great as a source of good. That isn't exactly related to Sudan though, so I will point out about the slave trade in Sudan.

I would say religion is more a source of harm than isolated damaged individuals who are not going to kill anyone because they think they'll be judged harshly. Any other examples you might want to bring up? Or to try bolster your position?

i was refering to people in various parts of the world who may have had loved ones murdered and who choose not to take revenge due to their religous beliefs , those kind of scenarios , not people with bizzare beliefs who see its as reasonable to kill their daughter for marrying outside islam etc

Jesus Shaves

Word

GarIT

lawnmower_man wrote: »

GarIT wrote: »

I believe that I am right, I have talked to priests about this issue before, and they said that unfortunately they believe that is the stance of the RCC, the RCC doesn't shout out about half its beliefs as it would be seen as a joke just like all other religions.

If you want any credibility you should deal with some of the points that have been made instead of excuses to not answer.

God can't be real and homosexuality can't be oh at the same time so which one is right? Do you agree that it is illogical to believe both?

il give you one thing , you have some brass neck , you come on here spouting blatant lies about the catholic church being in favour of the death penalty for homosexuals ( ala iran ) and not only do you not retract such a false statement , you remain on your high horse , demanding others step up to the plate and validate their possitions

where on earth do you get off or have i fallen for a champion troll

If you have proof that the church does not condemn homosexuals to death please show me.

Stop trying to dodge questions and focusing on one point that neither side can prove, it will get nowhere.

Pushtrak

lawnmower_man wrote: »

i was refering to people in various parts of the world who may have had loved ones murdered and who choose not to take revenge due to their religous beliefs

Isolated incidents that wouldn't even register statistically trumps...

not people with bizzare beliefs who see its as reasonable to kill their daughter for marrying outside islam etc

???

My links were about people being killed on charges of witchcraft or sold as slaves. Something some isolated individuals deciding not to take revenge doesn't hold a candle on. And you say GarIT is the troll.

lawnmower_man

GarIT wrote: »

If you have proof that the church does not condemn homosexuals to death please show me.

Stop trying to dodge questions and focusing on one point that neither side can prove, it will get nowhere.

the term pot - black was created for you

and stop trolling about the catholic churches alledged support for the death penalty under any circumstance , you might aswell ask me for evidence that santa doesnt exist , you made the claim , the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for this claim , frequenting this forum should make you more than familiar with such a possition , your an idiot

lawnmower_man

Pushtrak wrote: »

Isolated incidents that wouldn't even register statistically trumps...

???

My links were about people being killed on charges of witchcraft or sold as slaves. Something some isolated individuals deciding not to take revenge doesn't hold a candle on. And you say GarIT is the troll.

you dont think accusing the catholic church of being in favour of the death penalty for gays is a form of trolling ?

what relevance has your story of witchcraft to my thesis ?

Pushtrak

lawnmower_man wrote: »

you dont think accusing the catholic church of being in favour of the death penalty for gays is a form of trolling ?

what relevance has your story of witchcraft to my thesis ?

You presume religion is more a source of good than ill. It prevents some people from bad deeds as they fear being judged. I counter this perspective by showing some practices which are carried out and vindicated by religion. It is to tip the balance away from religion being a source of good that is worth maintaining to one that shows, as a whole religion being a force for good is a dubious position to hold.

lawnmower_man

Pushtrak wrote: »

You presume religion is more a source of good than ill. It prevents some people from bad deeds as they fear being judged. I counter this perspective by showing some practices which are carried out and vindicated by religion. It is to tip the balance away from religion being a source of good that is worth maintaining to one that shows, as a whole religion being a force for good is a dubious position to hold.

I never said anything of the sort , in keeping with the specific thread title , I merely pointed out that it can sometimes prevent harm in this deeply imperfect world

Pushtrak

lawnmower_man wrote: »

I never said anything of the sort , in keeping with the specific thread title , I merely pointed out that it can sometimes prevent harm in this deeply imperfect world

Ok, so your perspective is that it can prevent harm, but not necessarily more harm than it causes? Is this correct? If so, we're on the same page.

GarIT

lawnmower_man wrote: »

the term pot - black was created for you

and stop trolling about the catholic churches alledged support for the death penalty under any circumstance , you might aswell ask me for evidence that santa doesnt exist , you made the claim , the burden of proof is on you to provide evidence for this claim , frequenting this forum should make you more than familiar with such a possition , your an idiot

I am not a troll, I have spent nearly a year studying religions, mainly ones relevant to Ireland.

You see this case is different, yes I made a claim but the only proof I have is the conversations I have had with christian brothers and priests in my school. You also made a claim that you are sure the opposite are true, athiests don't claim to say they are sure god doesn't exist, they say it is illogical. In this argument I have provided the only proof, the bible says that homosexuals should be killed for their actions, it would be logical to think Catholics would follow the bible, what makes you think different?

The only proof there is of a god is the quotes in the bible, how can the average catholic logically say the quotes are right about god but wrong about what god says they think think?

GarIT

lawnmower_man wrote: »

you dont think accusing the catholic church of being in favour of the death penalty for gays is a form of trolling ?

You don't think claiming you know the churches views without any reason to show you are right is trolling?

Is skipping the arguement because you don't like one point and just ignoring any point that proves you wrong trolling?

lawnmower_man

If the bible is your only source for making this ( absurd ) claim, how come your only focus is on catholicism , Protestantism place more emphasis on the bible than Catholicism, I suspect you have a bigoted agenda which would explain your willingness to make false accusations

GarIT

lawnmower_man wrote: »

If the bible is your only source for making this ( absurd ) claim, how come your only focus is on catholicism , Protestantism place more emphasis on the bible than Catholicism, I suspect you have a bigoted agenda which would explain your willingness to make false accusations

I have more sources than the bible but no written ones that back this up, anything I have said I believe to be true, why is there any reason to think different.

Christanity is terrified of homosexuals because if they are accepted by a christian religion it would prove god to not be real.

Please answer how you can logically say the person that said homosexuality is wrong is a perfect all knowing being but is wrong about their views?

It is absurd to think the RCC could ever accept homosexuals as not being sinners.

iguana

A baby's fingernails. My mother in law recently waxed lyrical to my husband about the perfection of baby's fingernails and how they were obvious proof of the existence of God. I'm worried it was the opening salvo of the much dreaded campaign for baptised grandchildren.

Chief_Jack

iguana wrote: »

A baby's fingernails. My mother in law recently waxed lyrical to my husband about the perfection of baby's fingernails and how they were obvious proof of the existence of God. I'm worried it was the opening salvo of the much dreaded campaign for baptised grandchildren.

If it is, would you allow the baby to be baptized?