Sucess and failure

menoscemo

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Pay the entry fee, you've the right to toe the start. That's the mentality I'm talking about all right. For a start, they get in the way of their better's. But I doubt I'll spend much time trying to convince you otherwise, if that's your opinion.

I don't disagree with you but I don't see a trend on the 'R' forum where this kind of reverse snobberry is prevalent.
Yes there have been some posters displaying this attitude but from what I have seen they have been shot down by the masses.

Do you have any specific examples of these 'anti-eiltist', 'goodybag whingers' attitude taking over?

mloc123

RandyMann wrote: »

I'm just confused why Tunney gets his arse licked so much by some posters

He's the elder statesman of the Triathlon forum these days.

Think of him as the John Giles of here, you might not always agree with his opinions but he is very knowledgeable and most people will always listen to what he has to say.

RandyMann

mloc123 wrote: »

He's the elder statesman of the Triathlon forum these days.

Think of him as the John Giles of here, you might not always agree with his opinions but he is very knowledgeable and most people will always listen to what he has to say.

Nah, arse licking is all it is, period.

mloc123

RandyMann wrote: »

Nah, arse licking is all it is, period.

Hah, fair enough

MrCreosote

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Pay the entry fee, you've the right to toe the start. That's the mentality I'm talking about all right. For a start, they get in the way of their better's. But I doubt I'll spend much time trying to convince you otherwise, if that's your opinion.

You're talking about getting in people's way. That's a totally different thing and I've seen nobody say that you should go right to the front regardless of your expected time. Quite the opposite. Although maybe you could point out a few place where it was said?

There are only two types of athletes- professionals and everybody else i.e. funrunners/hobbyists/weekend warriors. Call them what you want. If you're not getting paid for why you do, you very much in the second group. Might as well accept it.

peter kern

RandyMann wrote: »

Nah, arse licking is all it is, period.

thats how it works you get info and you say thanks
and off his 6000 post i am sure 5000 are good ones.

RandyMann

peter kern wrote: »

thats how it works you get info and you say thanks
and off his 6000 post i am sure 5000 are good ones.

Whatever works for you Peter...

peter kern

RandyMann wrote: »

Whatever works for you Peter...

i assume he dosnt get paid and his advices is better than tri magazines.

tunney

RandyMann wrote: »

I'm just confused why Tunney gets his arse licked so much by some posters

RandyMann wrote: »

Nah, arse licking is all it is, period.

I thought I felt a bit of a tickling sensation last night, I just thought it was the curry from tea, hadn't realised it was from my arse being licked.

Chartsengrafs

MrCreosote wrote: »

There are only two types of athletes- professionals and everybody else i.e. funrunners/hobbyists/weekend warriors. Call them what you want. If you're not getting paid for why you do, you very much in the second group. Might as well accept it.

That's a very convenient spectrum to use: professional vs not professional but is virtually useless in reality. Not even going to bother with examples to illustrate how non-sensical it is.

MrCreosote

Basster wrote: »

That's a very convenient spectrum to use: professional vs not professional but is virtually useless in reality. Not even going to bother with examples to illustrate how non-sensical it is.

Humour me with a few examples maybe?

I'm not sure why people get so heated up about it. You do something for money-you're a pro. You do it for enjoyment- you're one of the rest of us. The first placing age-grouper has more in common with the back of the pack competitors than with the pros.

Oryx

MrCreosote wrote: »

Humour me with a few examples maybe?

I'm not sure why people get so heated up about it. You do something for money-you're a pro. You do it for enjoyment- you're one of the rest of us. The first placing age-grouper has more in common with the back of the pack competitors than with the pros.

I disagree completely with this. The superstar in our club is doing the Ironman world championships this year. He is not a pro, but this is not just a hobby to him. It is a complete commitment, physically, financially and emotionally. He has NOTHING in common with a back of the pack finisher apart from they can both ride a bike. To argue that all non pros are the same shows how little you know about amateur sports and the effort the really good guys put in.

nerraw1111

The running forum is ridiculously helpful. There's always someone to answer the same questions. Some very patient posters.

ecoli

MrCreosote wrote: »

Humour me with a few examples maybe?

Every scholarship athlete in the NCAA (Galen Rupp, Bernard Lagat and Cam Levins are just a few examples who came through over the last few years). Under the rules none of these athletes are able to receive any money from sponsors/prize money from races.

Mark Kenneally is another example professionally he is a physio despite being an Olympian. Ailish McSweeney was another example of someone who was working to support herself and only in recent times did she quit her job to dedicate herself to her running (though was not funded as a result)

duffyshuffle

RandyMann wrote: »

Whatever works for you Peter...

I don't think i've read a post by Tunney that somewhere in its meaning, explicit or not, he isn't actually trying to help the poster. Some people only post wanting to hear the answer that they were hoping for, Tunney posts up the answer to the question that he thinks is right. This seems to rub people the wrong way.

No arse licking, just an appreciation for the knowledge and clear no-nonsense explanations Tunney provides.

nerraw1111

duffyshuffle wrote: »

I don't think i've read a post by Tunney that somewhere in its meaning, explicit or not, he isn't actually trying to help the poster. Some people only post wanting to hear the answer that they were hoping for, Tunney posts up the answer to the question that he thinks is right. This seems to rub people the wrong way.

No arse licking, just an appreciation for the knowledge and clear no-nonsense explanations Tunney provides.

Ah come on. Have you been given rose tinted tunney spectacles? You seriously never seen a post by Tunney where he wasn't trying to help someone? He's slagged off many a poster/time/target without offering any help. Sure that was his appeal. The new tunney, boo urns.

bryangiggsy

peter kern wrote: »

RandyMann wrote: »

Nah, arse licking is all it is, period.

thats how it works you get info and you say thanks
and off his 6000 post i am sure 5000 are good ones.

Jeez not u as well Peter

duffyshuffle

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Ah come on. Have you been given rose tinted tunney spectacles? You seriously never seen a post by Tunney where he wasn't trying to help someone? He's slagged off many a poster/time/target without offering any help. Sure that was his appeal. The new tunney, boo urns.

He's given his opinion on what's fast and what's plodding in his eyes, People may have seen that as slagging, it's his opinion. I think he's a realist that believes in smart/hard work and big returns where a lot of posters that post don't want to know how to get better, they just want a pat on the back and on your way.

My mate in work, in response to anyone whining or giving out about how other people are sh1t or lazy, says "sure I think we're all doing a great job" and I think that's what lots of people want to hear and want to believe even though he's always saying it in jest.

MrCreosote

Oryx wrote: »

I disagree completely with this. The superstar in our club is doing the Ironman world championships this year. He is not a pro, but this is not just a hobby to him. It is a complete commitment, physically, financially and emotionally. He has NOTHING in common with a back of the pack finisher apart from they can both ride a bike. To argue that all non pros are the same shows how little you know about amateur sports and the effort the really good guys put in.

Unless he's living on thin air, or getting funded by somebody else to do triathlon, then it is very much a hobby. An all-consuming hobby maybe, but a hobby nonetheless.

By the way I never said all non pros were the same, I said they had more in common than pros and nonpros.

ecoli wrote: »

Every scholarship athlete in the NCAA (Galen Rupp, Bernard Lagat and Cam Levins are just a few examples who came through over the last few years). Under the rules none of these athletes are able to receive any money from sponsors/prize money from races.

I doubt they were working down the local chippers to make ends meet. They got paid to run (scholarship)- that makes them professional.

Clearlier

MrCreosote wrote: »

Unless he's living on thin air, or getting funded by somebody else to do triathlon, then it is very much a hobby. An all-consuming hobby maybe, but a hobby nonetheless.

By the way I never said all non pros were the same, I said they had more in common than pros and nonpros.



I doubt they were working down the local chippers to make ends meet. They got paid to run (scholarship)- that makes them professional.

Mr C - While I admire your persistence I think that you're on a hiding to nothing on this one. Just thinking of myself. The athlete I was when I turned up to run a 10 mile race about 5 years ago and hit the wall after 5 miles (I'm not kidding) bears very little resemblance to the athlete I was last October (and not just because I've gone bald in the mean time!).

There's a whole spectrum of athlete in a race and there isn't any kind of a gap between pro's and non pro's. There's quite a few people out there who pick up a little bit of sponsorship and a bit of prize money who also work full time jobs.

By the way I think that your original point - that everybody who pays the entry fee has the right to start - is valid although I think that it misunderstood what Kurt was trying to say which I took to be an attempt to knock the idea that participation is all that counts. It may be all that matters for some runners but there are plenty of people out there who are aiming to be as good as they can be.

I'll happily offer advice to most anyone who wants it but I'm much more interested in following the progress of someone who's aiming to be the best that they can be no matter what level they're at. I'm also much more interested in the advice of the latter group although the former shouldn't be ignored.

P.S. I think that Tunney's new log may provide some insight into the origins of this thread. I've never followed a tri's log before but I think I might make this my first.

tunney

nerraw1111 wrote: »

Ah come on. Have you been given rose tinted tunney spectacles? You seriously never seen a post by Tunney where he wasn't trying to help someone? He's slagged off many a poster/time/target without offering any help. Sure that was his appeal. The new tunney, boo urns.

Sometimes the right answer to "I did a 10km/5km/whatever in xx:xx - is that a good time?" Is "no, its pretty bad actually, did you train for the event?"

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

thats how it works you get info and you say thanks
and off his 6000 post i am sure 5000 are good ones.

mloc123 wrote: »

He's the elder statesman of the Triathlon forum these days.

Think of him as the John Giles of here, you might not always agree with his opinions but he is very knowledgeable and most people will always listen to what he has to say.

duffyshuffle wrote: »

He's given his opinion on what's fast and what's plodding in his eyes, People may have seen that as slagging, it's his opinion. I think he's a realist that believes in smart/hard work and big returns where a lot of posters that post don't want to know how to get better, they just want a pat on the back and on your way.

My mate in work, in response to anyone whining or giving out about how other people are sh1t or lazy, says "sure I think we're all doing a great job" and I think that's what lots of people want to hear and want to believe even though he's always saying it in jest.

Ahh Lads you are too kind, it gets me right *here*

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Jeez not u as well Peter

Cheers for the vote of confidence Bryan!

BennyMul

Slightly off topic but we have to be careful, as a society we are applauding mediocrity, just look at the what is presented to children as role models, contestants from “big brother”, X-factor all looking for the quick route. We need to get real intellects, true athletes on that pedestal not dumb ….

Does everyone deserve to be on the start line, yes
If they race and give it everything do they deserve praise regardless of placing, yes

MrCreosote

Clearlier wrote: »

There's a whole spectrum of athlete in a race and there isn't any kind of a gap between pro's and non pro's. There's quite a few people out there who pick up a little bit of sponsorship and a bit of prize money who also work full time jobs.

I just think that the fundamental reasons pros and nonpros (money and enjoyment) do a sport are so far apart it makes them totally different groups. If anything, the top amateurs are the more inspiring than the pros- hold down a job, raise a family and still find time to post amazing times.

BennyMul wrote: »

Slightly off topic but we have to be careful, as a society we are applauding mediocrity, just look at the what is presented to children as role models, contestants from “big brother”, X-factor all looking for the quick route. We need to get real intellects, true athletes on that pedestal not dumb ….

Does everyone deserve to be on the start line, yes
If they race and give it everything do they deserve praise regardless of placing, yes

It's never applauding mediocrity to encourage people who post any time in an event. The people to compare them to aren't the ones who finished the run or tri hours earlier, it's the one who do nothing. In a country where being "interested in sport" means sitting on your arse watching premiership for 6 hours straight, it's pretty exceptional to do ANY event, regardless of the time.

tunney

MrCreosote wrote: »

It's never applauding mediocrity to encourage people who post any time in an event. The people to compare them to aren't the ones who finished the run or tri hours earlier, it's the one who do nothing. In a country where being "interested in sport" means sitting on your arse watching premiership for 6 hours straight, it's pretty exceptional to do ANY event, regardless of the time.

When growing up if I didn't do as well as expected in an exam I'd say "but I did way better than XYZ". Response was always the same "Never compare yourself to those worse than yourself, how did ABC do?".

peter kern

I just think that the fundamental reasons pros and nonpros (money and enjoyment) do a sport are so far apart it makes them totally different groups. If anything, the top amateurs are the more inspiring than the pros- hold down a job, raise a family and still find time to post amazing times.


thats changing your arguement completely ;-) (in a positive way me thinks).

What you seem to forget is that even pretty much every pro lives from sponsors , so all pros work in Marketing, there is only very few pros that could life of prize money.

Sport needs every athlete and I think only when it comes to champion chip races the more advanced athletes should get a preferential treatmeant, since its a performance race not a participation race in my mind.

MrCreosote

tunney wrote: »

When growing up if I didn't do as well as expected in an exam I'd say "but I did way better than XYZ". Response was always the same "Never compare yourself to those worse than yourself, how did ABC do?".

A fair point. Personally I think the best comparison is when you compare both ways. There's no point denying or ignoring successes or improvements along the way, even if someone is aiming for the top.

BennyMul

MrCreosote wrote: »

It's never applauding mediocrity to encourage people who post any time in an event. The people to compare them to aren't the ones who finished the run or tri hours earlier, it's the one who do nothing. In a country where being "interested in sport" means sitting on your arse watching premiership for 6 hours straight, it's pretty exceptional to do ANY event, regardless of the time.

I never claimed that posting a time as "applauding mediocrity", if that person is happy with their time and effort then I personally applaud them, regardless of the time,

MrCreosote

peter kern wrote: »

thats changing your arguement completely ;-) (in a positive way me thinks).

What you seem to forget is that even pretty much every pro lives from sponsors , so all pros work in Marketing, there is only very few pros that could life of prize money.

Sport needs every athlete and I think only when it comes to champion chip races the more advanced athletes should get a preferential treatmeant, since its a performance race not a participation race in my mind.

No change in argument!

I don't have a problem with pros getting preferential treatment. After all it is their job. What I hate to see is people midtable or back of the pack being ignored or talked down.

d4r3n

MrCreosote wrote: »

A fair point. Personally I think the best comparison is when you compare both ways. There's no point denying or ignoring successes or improvements along the way, even if someone is aiming for the top.

I don't think I'd ever look at finishers below my times when it comes to race results, I only tend to look at those with better swim / bike / run splits and work out how many places improving x minutes would give me and try figure out what I need to do to improve and try work towards it.