Sucess and failure

tunney

Some time ago I came to the realisation that success and failure, for the age group athlete (or fun runner), can only be defined relative to themselves. To their physical traits, their athletic history, their employement, their family. Sucess for someone is failure for another. Failure for one is beyond the wildest dreams of someone else.

Which brings me onto another realisation - that goal setting and expectations of performances must also be viewed through the eyes of the person setting and making them. Trying to assess whether something is achieveable for someone else without considering the level of work that THEY are willing to make, and the sacrafices that THEY are willing to make. Improvements that someone may dismiss as "mah, simple" are an insurmountable mountain for others and not recognising this can make one seem like an elitist, condescending, patronising git. Likewise dismissing goals as the effort and work required is unimaginable to you can make the objector appear bitter and petty when someone else IS willing to go the extra mile.

My two cents.

On a further level these realisations are applicable to the same person at different points in time I believe.

elvis jones

Are you going soft:D

It is true. Just finishing a sprint is amazing for one person but for another finishing just over the hr mark is failure.

I'm doing the Lost Sheep in Sept and my goal is to finish, nothing more. Now that doesn't sound like much to some people but you have to understand where i was less than 3 yrs ago and where i have to come to.

Yet i have been the other person, i have seen someone finish a 10k in 80 min and go meh so what thats no big deal..........yet i don't know what they have gone through to do that time and understand the pride they feel in it.

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

Some time ago I came to the realisation that success and failure, for the age group athlete (or fun runner), can only be defined relative to themselves. To their physical traits, their athletic history, their employement, their family. Sucess for someone is failure for another. Failure for one is beyond the wildest dreams of someone else.

Which brings me onto another realisation - that goal setting and expectations of performances must also be viewed through the eyes of the person setting and making them. Trying to assess whether something is achieveable for someone else without considering the level of work that THEY are willing to make, and the sacrafices that THEY are willing to make. Improvements that someone may dismiss as "mah, simple" are an insurmountable mountain for others and not recognising this can make one seem like an elitist, condescending, patronising git. Likewise dismissing goals as the effort and work required is unimaginable to you can make the objector appear bitter and petty when someone else IS willing to go the extra mile.

My two cents.

On a further level these realisations are applicable to the same person at different points in time I believe.

Who are you? & what have you done with tunney? :rolleyes:

But isnt that the attraction of triathlon? People go on about how elitist we all appear to be yet, in my racing experience, a nicer bunch of supportive sportspeople would be hard to find.

I'd fully agree with the sentiment in your post.

peter kern

On a further level these realisations are applicable to the same person at different points in time I believe.



spot on

couerdelion

On that note I remember reading that you thought everyone was able for a 35 minute 10km. Do you still think that?

Would that be dependent on the sacrifice they are willing to make and the effort they are willing to put in? Or would you know see this as an unsurmountable mountain for some?

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Cracking post and very true.

ray o

Did someone crack his boards password?

elvis jones

Never mind that, Tunney and Peter agree:eek:

griffin100

ray o wrote: »

Did someone crack his boards password?

That's what happens when you listen to too much Stone Roses and surround yourself with similar people Don't worry, he'll be dehippyfied soon and be back to normal.

Izoard

Meh, if you don't do sub 3:30, you are walking...

tunney

I think it quite telling that everyone only commented on one side of my OP.

The whole part about viewing other peoples goals as unrealistic and unattainable was ignored.

The whole idea of dismissing someone's goals because the amount of work and dedication and the number of sacrifices required is completely unimaginable to you is the other side. Simply because YOU cannot imagine doing what's required does not mean that someone else will not rise to the challenge and HTFU and do the "hard yards".

I had a reason for thinking this when I made the OP. Over the years I've see lots of peoples times and goals called "cr@p and slow" by lots of people. Lord knows I've done it enough. Some of the time it was fair, other times it was not and did not take account of the persons personal situation.

Over the years as well occasionally someone has had a goal smacked down. That bloke who was morbidly obese but wants to do Marathon des Sables got it rough and had his goal dissected by all and sundry. However that was done out of concern for his physical well being in the training and participation, and for his mental and emotional well being should be fail, which seemed likely.

However recently I've seen something else creep into ART and I don't like it. The supportive nature has eroded somewhat and I've seen lots of little nasty comments littered around. Whether the posters actually realise what they are saying or not is another thing. How it comes across is they don't think someone can do what they want to do and achieve their goals and that's fair enough, but what should be done is to articulate the concerns and post them, back them up with data and stand over the opinion. What seems to be happening is these people are taking digs and making sly gibes at people. I admit its not overt or obvious and one or two of the posters may not have intended to come across as they did.

There are plenty of things I cannot imagine ever doing because I cannot imagine doing the work to get there. However if someone demonstrates that they understand the work required and is willing to make the sacrifices to do that work then I tip my hat to them and wish them all the luck they may need to get the job done.

Perhaps we all should be a little more supportive?

Rawhead

You made a dig in a post a while back that pissed me off more than it should have. You said something like "the people waddling around in 44 minutes" with reference to an Olympic race. Now the fact that I had just completed my first Oly and my run time was 44mins might have clouded my judgement somewhat but that was a wanker of a elitist thing to say I reckon.

Why the softness all of a sudden, did you break a PB on the road to Damascus.

tunney

Rawhead wrote: »

You made a dig in a post a while back that pissed me off more than it should have. You said something like "the people waddling around in 44 minutes" with reference to an Olympic race. Now the fact that I had just completed my first Oly and my run time was 44mins might have clouded my judgement somewhat but that was a wanker of a elitist thing to say I reckon.

Why the softness all of a sudden, did you break a PB on the road to Damascus.

Again focussing on the one side of things......

Apologies, sure it wasn't a straight 10km I was talking about? Anyway's either way I never said your result was sh1t. I know nothing about you nor your background nor your situation.

Rawhead

tunney wrote: »

Again focussing on the one side of things......

Apologies, sure it wasn't a straight 10km I was talking about? Anyway's either way I never said your result was sh1t. I know nothing about you nor your background nor your situation.

I suppose you just proved your own point. I have lost nearly a third of my body weight in two and a half years (118kg to 82kg), I was smoking 40 a day and it took me 50mins to do 5kms.
Athy was my 3rd ever triathlon and I managed it in 2:25. 44mins is probably a waddle for some people but I was fairly happy.
Success is relative really I suppose.
I have also gotten some decent advise off of you so it ain't all negative my angry friend.

tunney

Rawhead wrote: »

I suppose you just proved your own point. I have lost nearly a third of my body weight in two and a half years (118kg to 82kg), I was smoking 40 a day and it took me 50mins to do 5kms.
Athy was my 3rd ever triathlon and I managed it in 2:25. 44mins is probably a waddle for some people but I was fairly happy.
Success is relative really I suppose.
I have also gotten some decent advise off of you so it ain't all negative my angry friend.

My point in bold, along with possible future successes also being relative.

Been along time since I got angry

The bitterness and digs were not at me. In all honesty I'm not a sensitive bloke and I can deal with people I don't know telling me I cannot do something. I'm allowed to be concerned for the people who the digs are being made at, and in all honesty those making them as well as it says alot about their state of mind.

shotgunmcos

tunney wrote: »

Been along time since I got angry
.

All good I guess. I even saw you pop onto a 15 hour IM finisher log to offer your congrats....

shotgunmcos

On a serious note

People constantly set unrealistic goals, in the short term. There is no dream too big for ANYONE, however the bigger the goal the more steps required to get there. Its the first step that people often think will just miraculously happen by itself...

interested

A nice topic Tunney, in this time of reflection

Irrespective of sport, people who have worked with a coach or coaches over a period of time usually take the opinion of that coach on board when setting goals, targets, objectives for the year or several years.

The coach, armed with knowledge of the persons background, existing ability, time available to train, injuries etc etc etc should be capable of administering a 'sanity check' to what they are told by that person or set goals along the way to something that seems almost impossible** to the person they're coaching but that the coach see's as a feasible target.

It's D'internet, so everyone's entitled to an opinion. The fact that opinion's are not always formed with all of the information is not always the fault of those responding.

Recently someone was talking to me about objectives for their swimming times in relation to triathlon - someone I don't coach - I offered some opinions, harsh as they were but never said 'No, forget it!'. Instead, tried to impress on the person that what they were doing was nowhere near enough and that patience, consistency and avoiding previous mistakes that led to injury might help them along the road.

Some recent indicators show progress, will it take this person to their goal ? maybe, maybe not ... the point is it's better for someone to get advice to help them find out for themselves if what they think they are trying to achieve is really possible with what they're doing or that they are indeed, just fooling themselves.

Oryx

I have to say I find it deeply ironic that its you, tunney, that posted this thread. In the years Ive been posting here Ive often found you ascerbic and dismissive towards 'lesser' achievements. Over time I realised a) you were usually right in your opinion* and b) youre actually quite a helpful guy, but god, you can came across badly at times. You actually seem surprised when called out for it in this thread.

I think pretty much everyone judges other peoples goals and achievements based on where they are themselves at the time. Someone who has never run 5k will see a marathon as a huge achievement, a sub 10 ironman would see a barely-scraped-the-cutoff IM finish as very weak. Its totally subjective. And we also do it to ourselves. A few years ago, finishing an IM would have been the pinnacle of wonderfulness for me, a superhuman thing to do. Having now done one and finished poorly imo, its no big deal, I didnt do great. I could, and will, attempt to do a lot better. Again, a subjective thing. My family cant understand why Im disappointed.

*not the being dismissive, but you do have a certain realism that comes from having been there, done that.

peter kern

Rawhead wrote: »

I suppose you just proved your own point. I have lost nearly a third of my body weight in two and a half years (118kg to 82kg), I was smoking 40 a day and it took me 50mins to do 5kms.
Athy was my 3rd ever triathlon and I managed it in 2:25. 44mins is probably a waddle for some people but I was fairly happy.
Success is relative really I suppose.
I have also gotten some decent advise off of you so it ain't all negative my angry friend.

wow ,thats serious improvement from 50 min for 5 k to 44min for 10k
I am sure there is more to come.

how did you get started if I may ask?

tunney

Oryx wrote: »

I have to say I find it deeply ironic that its you, tunney, that posted this thread. In the years Ive been posting here Ive often found you ascerbic and dismissive towards 'lesser' achievements. Over time I realised a) you were usually right in your opinion* and b) youre actually quite a helpful guy, but god, you can came across badly at times. You actually seem surprised when called out for it in this thread.

Agreed on the historical ascerbic and dismissive traits.

I don't see where I was called out for it in this thread? I certainly amn't surprised. I'm quite often a pr1ck.

nerraw1111

This is like one of the Facebook statuses: ‘To all the people talking behind my back, you know who you are. Karma is a bitch etc.” What’s the real reason behind the thread? Spit it out.

tunney

nerraw1111 wrote: »

This is like one of the Facebook statuses: ‘To all the people talking behind my back, you know who you are. Karma is a bitch etc.” What’s the real reason behind the thread? Spit it out.

Someone said something mean about me and I've been crying since Tuesday.

Rawhead

peter kern wrote: »

wow ,thats serious improvement from 50 min for 5 k to 44min for 10k
I am sure there is more to come.

how did you get started if I may ask?

My 10k stand alone time is actually 39:47. I gave up the smokes and as I mentioned was nearly 19 stone. I thought that if I didn't start doing something I would put on more weight off the smokes so I just started walking one evening, then running a small bit then really started enjoying it.

peter kern

Rawhead wrote: »

My 10k stand alone time is actually 39:47. I gave up the smokes and as I mentioned was nearly 19 stone. I thought that if I didn't start doing something I would put on more weight off the smokes so I just started walking one evening, then running a small bit then really started enjoying it.

fantastic !
on the other hand if your pb is sub 40, dave was right ;-0 44 is like walking then ;-) ;-0

Rawhead

While I have your attention Peter, I have my first HIM next weekend and was wondering what a good run would be considering my PB for a half marathon is 1:32?

peter kern

1.44. 48, 39

Kurt Godel

tunney wrote: »

I think it quite telling that everyone only commented on one side of my OP.

I'll comment on the other side- but before I do, cards on the table, I agree with Oryx, your OP is a bit rich, given your previous ascerbic comments on A/R/T performances (but you've always walked the walk, and are a great source of info round here).

Now for the other side- there's many threads on the /R/ part of the forum which undermine success- where "elitist" is used as a bad word, where the very notion of competition is derided, where "medals for getting off the couch" is considered to be a good idea. That's as damaging a mentality as is slagging the fatties running six-hour marathons. It shouldn't be considered that everyone has equal merit when it comes to competition- everyone (from the fastest to the slowest) should be using this forum to improve their times/abilities/distances. And that's done from a meritocracy, where slower guys learn from what worked or those who beat them them.

I don't see it on the athletics or tri threads on the forum, where generally everyone who tries their best is applauded or encouraged to try harder next time (and I think the running section used be more like this), but the running part has a large contingent of goodybag whingers who seem to think they have as much right to a place on the start line, because they paid the same entry fee as the lad who has trained much harder. More to the point, they seem to think their participation in an event has parity of esteem with someone else's (better) performance. That's not useful to anyone, except for ego massaging.

RandyMann

I'm just confused why Tunney gets his arse licked so much by some posters

MrCreosote

Kurt Godel wrote: »

That's as damaging a mentality as is slagging the fatties running six-hour marathons.

but the running part has a large contingent of goodybag whingers who seem to think they have as much right to a place on the start line, because they paid the same entry fee as the lad who has trained much harder.

That's rubbish! It's hardy damaging in any way- except maybe to the elitists' egos.

And those goodybag whingers HAVE the same right to be start line- for most events the only entry requirement is paying the entry fee. 'Harder' training has nothing to do with it.

Kurt Godel

MrCreosote wrote: »

That's rubbish! It's hardy damaging in any way- except maybe to the elitists' egos.

And those goodybag whingers HAVE the same right to be start line- for most events the only entry requirement is paying the entry fee. 'Harder' training has nothing to do with it.

Pay the entry fee, you've the right to toe the start. That's the mentality I'm talking about all right. For a start, they get in the way of their better's. But I doubt I'll spend much time trying to convince you otherwise, if that's your opinion.