Ulster Bank Systems are down part 2 *READ* First post

BuffyBot

This is a continuation of the original "Ulster Bank systems are down thread", which has been closed off due to it's evergrowing size.

The same rules apply:

a) Keep the posts constructive and civil.
b) Keep them on topic (i.e, the outage, (questions and answers on what people should do/can do), status updates etc)
c) Do not respond on thread to a post which you feel is unacceptable
d) Report any such posts
e) Retaliation is just as bad as instigating: i.e. "he started it" is not a defence. Drag the thread off topic, even in reply to a post by someone else will lead to deletion/infraction/bans
f) Anyone who falls foul of the above will get short shrift

Domhnall66

Non-update on UB's website now. http://ulsterbank.ie/roi/personal/generic/service-update.ashx

Oh all right;they have provided some updates in the details/FAQ bit underneath the main blurble, confirming at least what will not have been processed thus far.

*Grudgingly* I suppose that is something...

silentbang

Good link Ogham, finally we hear from him, however hes quoted as saying " We are working day and night to process the backlog of transactions for Ulster Bank as quickly as possible"...surely this is a lie? I havent heard of anyones account being processed and brought up to date and thats after 10 days... PLUS the teller in the bank told me everything was being done manually until systems were working properly, THEN they will start work on the backlog and updating peoples accounts.
You just wouldnt know what is going on.

Eoineo

As I suspected Child Benefit is held up as well. They say they will continue to have arrangements in place to ensure access to cash & to present yourself in branch with proof of ID etc.

jcupcake

Domhnall66 wrote: »

Non-update on UB's website now. http://ulsterbank.ie/roi/personal/generic/service-update.ashx

Oh all right, they have provided some updates in the details/FAQ bit underneath the main blurble, confirming at least what will not have been processed thus far.

*Grudgingly* I suppose that is something...

You mean about thursday the 21st?

That's been the exact same since about 5-6 days hasn't even changed to friday 22nd payments/salaries etc.

It's absolutely no new information on their site.

As for people "chancing their arm" with regards to taking out money you don't have I would really think twice here, your account is attached to an address and speaking from ecperience if you do not pay, that debt will be forwarded to a debt resolution company if you still do not pay then it goes to the solicitor's and onto the county sheriff, now it's russian roulette, you could get a hard ass who will just go to your residence and seize stuff.

I've had this happen not so long ago.

km79

Great so the children's allowance won't be going through automatically on Tuesday now either. Does not fill me with hope for the wages so

silentbang

jcupcake wrote: »

You mean about thursday the 21st?

That's been the exact same since about 5-6 days hasn't even changed to friday 22nd payments/salaries etc.

It's absolutely no new information on their site.

As for people "chancing their arm" with regards to taking out money you don't have I would really think twice here, your account is attached to an address and speaking from ecperience if you do not pay, that debt will be forwarded to a debt resolution company if you still do not pay then it goes to the solicitor's and onto the county sheriff, now it's russian roulette, you could get a hard ass who will just go to your residence and seize stuff.

I've had this happen not so long ago.

Yep fully advise against withdrawing more than you actually have or can afford, but it will happen, also how come the regulator are letting them hand money out like this without any agreements in place?

Domhnall66

jcupcake wrote: »

You mean about thursday the 21st?

That's been the exact same since about 5-6 days hasn't even changed to friday 22nd payments/salaries etc.

It's absolutely no new information on their site.

I meant about the childrens' allowance but I can't swear that wasn't there before. Seemed new to me.

filmbuffboy

silentbang wrote: »

Yep fully advise against withdrawing more than you actually have or can afford, but it will happen, also how come the regulator are letting them hand money out like this without any agreements in place?

I suppose its that or bar access to cash for hundreds of thousands of UB customers, which would cause a lot more damage to the banks reputation that already has been.

Anyone who goes down and withdraws more money than they have owing to them will eventually have to pay it back! its not like the bank dont know where you live lol

Geri Male

silentbang wrote: »

Yep fully advise against withdrawing more than you actually have or can afford, but it will happen, also how come the regulator are letting them hand money out like this without any agreements in place?

They're just letting people withdraw cash.

Not the same as a giving them a loan or an overdraft where facility letters have to issue etc.

filmbuffboy

Domhnall66 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fears-for-500-job-losses-at-ulster-bank-in-new-blow-2986467.html

is that a recent article or old? theres no date on it excpet todays date on the main page in the top lefthand corner

AltAccount

Domhnall66 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fears-for-500-job-losses-at-ulster-bank-in-new-blow-2986467.html

Why on earth is that funny? Do you think any of those to be let go had anything to do with the situation now?


Edit: probably an old article

silentbang

Geri Male wrote: »

They're just letting people withdraw cash.

Not the same as a giving them a loan or an overdraft where facility letters have to issue etc.

Yeah withdraw cash without any proof that you are owed wages or even in receipt of a wage, I only have 4 euro in my account and based on my word they were prepared to give me 1000 euro. Its going to be some clean up is all im saying....im a law abiding citizen so i wouldnt take advantage, im also not vulnerable so wouldnt even be tempted, but there are those who will.

filmbuffboy

silentbang wrote: »

Yeah withdraw cash without any proof that you are owed wages or even in receipt of a wage, I only have 4 euro in my account and based on my word they were prepared to give me 1000 euro. Its going to be some clean up is all im saying....im a law abiding citizen so i wouldnt take advantage, im also not vulnerable so wouldnt even be tempted, but there are those who will.

well if there are people who are withdrawing a grand when they dont have that much to their name, they hopefully realise they will have to pay it back.

if they dont, the bank will pursue them on it.

youd have to be pretty stupid to think that it was free money, with no strings attatched

the_syco

silentbang wrote: »

based on my word they were prepared to give me 1000 euro

I wonder how mad town was last night with people drinking unlimited cash?

Domhnall66

AltAccount wrote: »

Why on earth is that funny? Do you think any of those to be let go had anything to do with the situation now?

I was just on my way to edit: to answer your question, no, emphatically not.
It is more a case of "I laugh so that I do not cry"....

I think it is a) appallingly mis-timed, horrifically so and b) deeply, profoundly, unfair that front line staff are let go in order to protect the demonstrably poor leadership.

Quite aside from the unimaginably demoralising effect of this on the staff and the very real consequences for those let go, just from a purely business "people are raw materials" point of view this highlights what I consider to be the utter ineptitude at the top of this organisation.

There are only three reasons to cut staff, ever.
1. You had too many to begin with for some reason.
2. You have to or the whole company will go down with the loss of all jobs.
3. You have no business plan to make profits by, I dunno, delivering in a competitive manner, so you protect your bottom line by slashing overheads.

Purely a personal opinion but I'm going for door number 3 in this case. They may as well start wearing sandwich boards saying "we can't do our jobs - replace us" because that is what it says to the market.

BobbyD10

filmbuffboy wrote: »

is that a recent article or old? theres no date on it excpet todays date on the main page in the top lefthand corner

11 Jan 2012

Geri Male

Domhnall66 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/fears-for-500-job-losses-at-ulster-bank-in-new-blow-2986467.html

Article dates from 11 January 2012.

950 job losses were eventually announced a few weeks later.

AltAccount

Domhnall66 wrote: »

I was just on my way to edit: to answer your question, no, emphatically not.
It is more a case of "I laugh so that I do not cry"....

I think it is a) appallingly mis-timed, horrifically so and b) deeply, profoundly, unfair that front line staff are let go in order to protect the demonstrably poor leadership.

Quite aside from the unimaginably demoralising effect of this on the staff and the very real consequences for those let go, just from a purely business "people are raw materials" point of view this highlights what I consider to be the utter ineptitude at the top of this organisation.

There are only three reasons to cut staff, ever.
1. You had too many to begin with for some reason.
2. You have to or the whole company will go down with the loss of all jobs.
3. You have no business plan to make profits by, I dunno, delivering in a competitive manner, so you protect your bottom line by slashing overheads.

Purely a personal opinion but I'm going for door number 3 in this case. They may as well start wearing sandwich boards saying "we can't do our jobs - replace us" because that is what it says to the market.

That's great and all, you're very inciteful with your analysis, but is that article actually current? It's not on their front Page or business front page on the website.

In the meantime you could destroy the morale and focus of the front line staff that so many posters are relying on to help them through this.

Makes you look foolish tbh

silentbang

filmbuffboy wrote: »

youd have to be pretty stupid to think that it was free money, with no strings attatched

Totally agreed, however im just not sure they should be dishing money out like they are, people have been without wages for 2 weeks, they go into the bank and are then asked 'how much do you want'...Jesus some folks would take hand an all...just think they should be more responsible, people were left vulnerable and desperate after 2 weeks going into 3 with no wages,yeah its there own fault if they overdraw on their account,just dont think the bank should be giving them that option. This country and many others are in a state because people couldnt say no!

Domhnall66

Geri Male wrote: »

Article dates from 11 January 2012.

950 job losses were eventually announced a few weeks later.

Eh? Google and the page dated it today (I didn't buy the indo hardcopy so had nothing to cross-reference).
Apologies for the confusion.

CourierCollie

Just reposting the link from Ogham. As it's the most up to date info I've seen

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/letter-from-rbs-chairman-about-problems-affecting-ulster-bank.html

filmbuffboy

silentbang wrote: »

Totally agreed, however im just not sure they should be dishing money out like they are, people have been without wages for 2 weeks, they go into the bank and are then asked 'how much do you want'...Jesus some folks would take hand an all...just think they should be more responsible, people were left vulnerable and desperate after 2 weeks going into 3 with no wages,yeah its there own fault if they overdraw on their account,just dont think the bank should be giving them that option. This country and many others are in a state because people couldnt say no!

i see what youre saying, and youre right.

but the bank literally had no other alternative than to hand out cash the way theyre doing it.

if they had refused access to cash to every UB customer since this began there would have been UPROAR.

i really just hope this ends soon. im sick of wondering where in cyberspace my money is, and if i will even ever get it at all...

AltAccount

Some people are just opportunistically dishonest - look at the looting in the London riots. Hopefully those who take the opportunity to defraud the bank will get prosecuted in due course.

filmbuffboy

CourierCollie wrote: »

Just reposting the link from Ogham. As it's the most up to date info I've seen

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/letter-from-rbs-chairman-about-problems-affecting-ulster-bank.html

so judging by Hester's comments, it will be this time next week, or even a little later before things begin to improve? brilliant!:rolleyes:

Our man in Havana

AltAccount wrote: »

Some people are just opportunistically dishonest - look at the looting in the London riots. Hopefully those who take the opportunity to defraud the bank will get prosecuted in due course.

That would be a civil matter sir!

LEIN

Just applied for a Ptsb account online.

I've had enough.

When the dust settles, all of my banking will be through Ptsb.

dee.

Still no update on my account. The €50 they put on my account last night is still there...not sure why. eBay charged my visa debit 84€ today for fees which says they received it on their site but the UB online banking balance is still the same....I hope it actually goes through or my account will get banned

Trotter

DD9090 wrote: »

Just applied for a Ptsb account online.

I've had enough.

When the dust settles, all of my banking will be through Ptsb.

Does ptsb have a banking app? I might go that direction myself.

war_child

i deal with ptsb and ive always found them superb online banking at the touch of a button withdrawals transfers done with no hassle at all ... i only mention this because my mother in law whos in receipt of pension and and banks with ub has had nomoney for 2 weeks is expected to run a house on one single payment her husbands of which our terrific government has stuck their sticky mits in and taken 15 euro aweek due to so called uppaid personal taxes from 38 years ago ...ha ha ha aint this country grand ..oh and she has moved to ptsb

Domhnall66

AltAccount wrote: »

That's great and all, you're very inciteful with your analysis, but is that article actually current? It's not on their front Page or business front page on the website.

In the meantime you could destroy the morale and focus of the front line staff that so many posters are relying on to help them through this.

Makes you look foolish tbh

I agree 100% and I do feel foolish. I apologised for the mistake (an honest one, the webpage and the google link that brought me to it had today's date) and confusion above, then deleted the post to minimise further confusion. No contest and no argument.

I'd be slightly worried though if front line staffers were coming here for updates.

On reflection though, perhaps not surprised...

km79

war_child wrote: »

i deal with ptsb and ive always found them superb online banking at the touch of a button withdrawals transfers done with no hassle at all ... i only mention this because my mother in law whos in receipt of pension and and banks with ub has had nomoney for 2 weeks is expected to run a house on one single payment her husbands of which our terrific government has stuck their sticky mits in and taken 15 euro aweek due to so called uppaid personal taxes from 38 years ago ...ha ha ha aint this country grand ..oh and she has moved to ptsb

Really considering this myself now. Do nearly all my banking online BUT of I was to get a cheque then its 32km to nearest PTSB branch and I would only ever be able to go in on a Saturday ....

millymoo

No changes here today. Pain in the tu tu.

I am very much affected by this. 2 salaries missing, loans, mortgage and some direct debits unpaid etc. Living off my credit card now.
I am sure this will get resolved in time. I have worked for 10 years in banks IT. When it is fixed i reckon UB / RBS will make their systems iron clad and may well end up the safest place to bank. Well here's hoping anyway. Hopefully all the banks will learn a huge lesson.

Jesus Wept

This has surpassed a glitch. I'm not sure about Hester's use of 'the incident'.

At this stage, I think it should be referred to as The Troubles.

abouttobebanned

Deleted User wrote: »

I am very much affected by this. 2 salaries missing, loans, mortgage and some direct debits unpaid etc. Living off my credit card now.
I am sure this will get resolved in time. I have worked for 10 years in banks IT. When it is fixed i reckon UB / RBS will make their systems iron clad and may well end up the safest place to bank. Well here's hoping anyway. Hopefully all the banks will learn a huge lesson.

Very naive IMO

uberalles

km79 wrote: »

Really considering this myself now. Do nearly all my banking online BUT of I was to get a cheque then its 32km to nearest PTSB branch and I would only ever be able to go in on a Saturday ....

PTSB customers not happy
http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/homeowners-vent-anger-at-ptsbs-moral-bankruptcy-3116958.html

kryogen

My balance still stands at -11euro now, little bit mental as that would be a pretty big swing, I honestly dont know where that much of a swing could have come from.

Cant wait to get my money out and close the account, how can you have confidence in a bank where this happens? The most important bond between the bank and customer is broken.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

wonski

Aquila wrote: »

What happens to direct debits/standing orders due to come out next week,even though i have cash to pay for them,will the system still say i havent?

I will let you know tomorrow morning, or few days later when i got letters from dd originators...

UB claims it will pay them regardless of account balance, but i have my doubts...
Will they pay mortgage payment of 1000E just like that? Regardless of balance/account history? I doubt.

Domhnall66

Aquila wrote: »

What happens to direct debits/standing orders due to come out next week,even though i have cash to pay for them,will the system still say i havent?

Treading very, very cautiously here (for good reason). There is at least a chance that the system will say you haven't. I base this possibility on an update from the horse's mouth (thx to Ogham for the original link): http://www.moneyguideireland.com/letter-from-rbs-chairman-about-problems-affecting-ulster-bank.html

Please note that Stephen Hester also speaks in terms of probabilities...I would at least consider what you might do in the worst case scenario. If something better occurs, e.g. if it is fixed next week before your DDs are due, so much the better.

That's assuming you mean you know you have been credited sufficiently to cover the outgoings. If you mean you have enough of a pre-Wed 20th July balance showing in your account to cover them then I'd refer you to the latest info on Direct Debits on UB's website: http://www.moneyguideireland.com/letter-from-rbs-chairman-about-problems-affecting-ulster-bank.html
If you mean you have actual cash-money, physically to hand, then I'd say pay it via any other means available; post office, via another bank etc. depending on who you are paying and what they accept.

Solair

It would probably be worth actually ringing direct debit originators a few days after you think they ought to have been paid by Ulster Bank.

They will probably be reasonable when you explain it's an Ulster Bank issue, but there are a lot of automatic processes that kick-in on billing systems when a payment is missed that could lead to your phone's outgoing call service being blocked, your credit card being suspended etc.

It's not really reasonable for Ulster Bank to expect direct debit originators to be able to track down which bank which customer comes from. All these processes are automated in billing systems and a lot of the time the customer care agents can't even see banking details for security reasons. They'll just see "unpaid".

I would particularly suggest that you ring any company that could suspend servies unexpectedly i.e. mobile companies, landline companies, broadband companies and credit card providers.

Also, if you've a mortgage elsewhere, or any loans definitely ring the bank and check.

Also, be really careful as sometimes billing systems can display a direct debit as "paid" when it's submitted to the bank. If Ulster Bank's system subsequently declines payment, the direct debit would be returned unpaid. So, you'd end up with your utility bill going from paid, back to unpaid anything up to a week or so after the date.

Again, these processes aren't run in real time, they're run as batches.

So, just monitor your bills carefully while this mess is still ongoing as I don't really think you can trust that anything's been done correctly.

Also a big warning too:

MAKE 100% sure you check insurance companies. Policies can end up cancelled if the premium goes unpaid.

Domhnall66

Solair wrote: »

Also a big warning too:

MAKE 100% sure you check insurance companies. Policies can end up cancelled if the premium goes unpaid.

Christ, I was so focussed on the bloody car tax I forgot about the insurance! Timely advice! :eek::eek::eek:

wonski

Solair wrote: »

It would probably be worth actually ringing direct debit originators a few days after you think they ought to have been paid by Ulster Bank.

They will probably be reasonable when you explain it's an Ulster Bank issue, but there are a lot of automatic processes that kick-in on billing systems when a payment is missed that could lead to your phone's outgoing call service being blocked, your credit card being suspended etc.

It's not really reasonable for Ulster Bank to expect direct debit originators to be able to track down which bank which customer comes from. All these processes are automated in billing systems and a lot of the time the customer care agents can't even see banking details for security reasons. They'll just see "unpaid".

I would particularly suggest that you ring any company that could suspend servies unexpectedly i.e. mobile companies, landline companies, broadband companies and credit card providers.

Also, if you've a mortgage elsewhere, or any loans definitely ring the bank and check.

Also, be really careful as sometimes billing systems can display a direct debit as "paid" when it's submitted to the bank. If Ulster Bank's system subsequently declines payment, the direct debit would be returned unpaid. So, you'd end up with your utility bill going from paid, back to unpaid anything up to a week or so after the date.

Again, these processes aren't run in real time, they're run as batches.

So, just monitor your bills carefully while this mess is still ongoing as I don't really think you can trust that anything's been done correctly.

Also a big warning too:

MAKE 100% sure you check insurance companies. Policies can end up cancelled if the premium goes unpaid.

+1, i already contacted my car insurance company. Their policy is that if you missed payment, the full outstanding is due... There are other policies that say that missed payment may invalidate it.

I know for a fact (because i missed 1 payment in the past), that Meteor bill pay is rather flexible, and the penalty for missed dd is only 1 euro. It took them two weeks to send me a message, and i could pay it either over the phone or in any Meteor shop (cash/card both accepted in store). So don't think anyone would be disconnected before contact is made.

ESB charges 8 euro for missed dd, and they will try to take the money again within1/2 weeks i think.

There are many companies out there, and many charges to be applied to accounts. Hope UB will do what they said, and pay all of those bills on time, otherwise lot of phonecalls to be made to make things right, and have those charges refunded.

bigboss1986

Hi all.My wife is getting MATERNITY BENEFIT to UB every monday.But the point is how we are supposed show UB her payslips to get our money out.:eek: ??Does anyone have same situation? Thx for help

booth70

Can anyone whose salary was due to be paid on Thursday 21st confirm that their salary has come through?:(

If it hasn't I reckon I will be waiting another week as I was due to be paid on Thursday the 28th:mad::mad:

This is getting beyond fceking reasonable:mad:

wonski

booth70 wrote: »

Can anyone whose salary was due to be paid on Thursday 21st confirm that their salary has come through?:(

If it hasn't I reckon I will be waiting another week as I was due to be paid on Thursday the 28th:mad::mad:

This is getting beyond fceking reasonable:mad:

Friend of mine still waiting for pay due on 22/06.

I too was due to be paid on 28th, but since he didn't get paid, i don't think i will see the money until next week.
Still waiting for that one lucky poster who gets his money credited...

scotchy

booth70 wrote: »

Can anyone whose salary was due to be paid on Thursday 21st confirm that their salary has come through?:(

If it hasn't I reckon I will be waiting another week as I was due to be paid on Thursday the 28th:mad::mad:

This is getting beyond fceking reasonable:mad:

My wages go into my UB account every Thursday (or did).

No wages have gone in for the last two Thursdays.

.

macplaxton

wonski wrote: »

Still waiting for that one lucky poster who gets his money credited...

Do you think I should play the Lotto this week?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79473809&postcount=1284

Update to add: I now have one or two transactions showing for the 21st. They are still generally headed (e.g. no specific details other than debit card transaction and that sort of thing). Balances look a bit closer to my actual position, but not 100% sure at the minute. At least they are positive balances and I can dump it out of the ATM if needed.

wonski

macplaxton wrote: »

Do you think I should play the Lotto this week?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79473809&postcount=1284

Update to add: I now have one or two transactions showing for the 21st. They are still generally headed (e.g. no specific details other than debit card transaction and that sort of thing). Balances look a bit closer to my actual position, but not 100% sure at the minute. At least they are positive balances and I can dump it out of the ATM if needed.

Was it same day transfer?
Someone mentioned before same day transfers were unaffected.
If it is not the case - consider yourself lucky, and definitely play the Lotto...

Just to confirm - your account is in Ireland - not NI?

Hibernicis

Assuming that their systems get back up and running, and the account balances are brought back into reasonable shape fairly soon, Ulster Bank's management will be preoccupied with the following over the coming months:

• Catching up on the remnants of the backlog
• Chasing down the additional credit given to customers in cash form during the outage, and trying to get this back
• Dealing with whatever fraud arose during the outage
• Conducting extensive systems and process/procedure reviews and implementing the recommendations
• Resolving account queries in respect of any "lost transactions" and "lost batch jobs" and this is going to be a minefield for them.
• Answering to a plethora of prudential, financial and regulatory audits, parliamentary enquiries, shareholder investigations etc all of which will detract from the day to day running of the bank
• Probably coping with a few less staff at a senior level (after the fall guys fall) and maybe some new brooms (inflicted by the BOE/CBI) whose vigorous sweeping generates even more work for the troops

In other words doing all sorts of things that have nothing to do with the day to day running of a bank. Therefore eye off the ball time. And that’s allowing for the two very substantial assumptions in my opening paragraph above (that their systems get back up and running, and the account balances are brought back into reasonable shape fairly soon)

If they don’t achieve this, (an it may well be too late already) then it’s a Disaster scenario. There are many many statistics about the failure rate of companies who experience a significant disaster. Many of these are pure bull. However one of the most widely accepted statements is this “A Company that experiences a computer outage lasting more than 10 days will never fully recover financially. 50 percent will be out of business within five years.” ("Disaster Recovery Planning: Managing Risk & Catastrophe in Information Systems" by John Toiga, 1989)

I do not believe that Ulster Bank will collapse and leave account holders without their money. If nothing else the Irish Deposit Guarantee Scheme combined with the fact that RBS is owned by the British Government should minimise the risk of people not getting their money back ultimately.

I do however believe that there are other serious risks, depending on which scenario unfolds: Take the scenario outlined above (the most optimistic) - the bank survives as is. Management will be severely distracted, and will also be endeavouring to placate shareholders (their bosses) by making up the cost of the disruption which is currently estimated to be between £100m and £200m across the RBS group. This will be a very very different bank to the one which we are used to.

A second possibility is that "the attempts to clear the backlog" as they euphemistically call it, are somewhat less successful and administrators are appointed to clean it up, or the outfit is broken up and sold/given to other banks to sort out - this could well result in accounts being "locked" for a period to allow a handover audit take place, resulting in a period when accessing funds could be difficult at the very least.

There are a number of variants of the second scenario, from protracted wind-up/down, to immediate hostile takeover. None of these offer any particular comfort to the average account holder.

So my thoughts, after almost two weeks? Is your money ultimately safe - Yes, you will get it all back some day. Are things going to get worse before they get better? Probably. What is the sensible thing to do - Move your deposit/savings NOW while you can, or at the very least 50% of it to another institution and then see how this plays out before making a final decision. That’s what I did.

This is a rewrite of an earlier post (in the previous thread) which unfortunately contravened various posting guidelines and earned me an infraction for "Pointless, non constructive hyperbole”. I genuinely hope that I have not breached any guidelines on this occasion. And for the record, I apologise to the Mods for breaching the guidelines.